Replace head gasket without replacing head bolts? (1 Viewer)

[Dave 2000]

Not wanting to give the impression I have money to throw away but, I just don't get it?

Hundreds of dollars and many hours of labour stripping down the motor, getting machine work done, to do the head gasket a KNOWN weak point, and then bulking at the price of a set of head bokts for what...$60.00?

Yes there will be those who have had success using the old bolts, but measuring them does not tell you how many cold/heat cycles the bolt has been through and besides, when ONE is shown to be out of spec, nobody answers the question, WHY is it out of spec, and how long before another goes out of spec?

I needed to change my gearbox a couple of years back, aguably easier than a head gasket, and I changed the clutch, the old unit had done many thousands of miles and looked and measured up fine, but the extra cost was worth the peace of mind.

I have literally done hundreds of head gaskets in the last 40+ years, and can say hand on heart I have never had a come back, and have always repkaced the bolts.

I am sympathetic if someone is working on a budget, but I would hold out fot a new set given the price.

Regards

Dave

 

[cruiserdan]

A set of OEM head bolts is closer to 200 bucks.

Toyota tends to be very proactive when it comes to non reusable parts and they do not treat the 1FZ head bolts as such.

 

[cruiserdan]

I should add that head gasket failure in the 1FZ is not related to head bolts but rather the original design of the fire rings on the gasket it's self.

 

[Dave 2000]

I saw a set of Beck Arnley at 60 so went for that cost wise, guessing Toyota do not produce their own, the BA set should be fine right?

I guess I am a little OTT when it come to building motors, need to keep an excellent rep.

Regards

Dave

 

[cruiserdan]

Being a bit of an OEM snob I would think an excellent rep would come from using only OEM parts.

 

[Dave 2000]

Not saying the gasket failures are due to bolts, (I have little experience with this particular motor), just pointing out that most people find one or more out of spec....why?

How long before the old ones that are reused become out of spec? Such an unknown variable does not sit comfortable with my motor building thinking, call me a perfectionist...by all means do.

Regards

Dave

 

[OGBeno]

Being a bit of an OEM snob

....

...Nah... Never... you? An OEM Snob?

 

[Dave 2000]

I agree I have seen significant differences in OEM versus copy head gadsets for example, but most fastening hardware may be in an OEM box, but would be manufactured by (and stamped) for example GKN.

regards

Dsve

 

[Red Merle]

I agree with Dave. I replaced mine with new OEM bolts that I sourced through @beno. My thought process was that it took an enormous amount of labor to get to the point that I was needing the bolts, I was already spending close to $2500 on other parts and machine shop work and the prospect of having one of the old bolts snap off deep in the block was just not tenable for me. My HG job was meant to be a one time deal and the $200 for the new bolts did seem steep, but come on, they are the fasteners that hold all of the other efforts into place. Once you do the 90 degree sweeps to torque them up, you will understand how much force is being applied to them. I am not a weak man, but even with a 3/4" breaker bar and all of my mustard, by the 14th bolt, I was gassed. Those babies are tight!

It's your money, but for peace of mind, I would just get new ones.

 

[Red Merle]

I should add that head gasket failure in the 1FZ is not related to head bolts but rather the original design of the fire rings on the gasket it's self.

Years ago, in earlier threads, you speculated that it was due to the change away from asbestos in the gasket material. Are you now convinced it was the design of the gasket rather than material? Just curious, not trying to challenge your earlier thoughts.

 

[Dave 2000]

Purely speculation on head gasket failures in general, and not trying to pull the thread off line.

There was a period in time when manufacturers moved towards thin wall castings in motors, like any many major changes in previous well established practices, flaws or faults came to light a short while later, the public typically being used as guinea pigs. Then there was the rush to change gaskets to suit, not just the asbestos issue.

Perhaps this was at the same time the gasket materials were changed?

Regards

Dave

 

[Red Merle]

Purely speculation on head gasket failures in general, and not trying to pull the thread off line.

There was a period in time when manufacturers moved towards thin wall castings in motors, like any many major changes in previous well established practises, flaws or faults came to light a short while later, the public typically being used as guinea pigs. Then there was the rush to change gaskets to suit, not just the asbestos issue.

Perhaps this was at the same time the gasket materials were changed?

Regards

Dave

I always figured it had something to do with the aluminum head being bolted to the cast iron block for the 1FZ-FE along with what I consider to be a design flaw of having that hot and angry EGR pipe running next to the No. 6 Cylinder for all of those years, which is where most of them seem to fail. Mine wasn't blown, I just did it as PM and I don't regret it. The only thing that keeps me up at night is the fact that when I went to lower the head back onto the block, I got it hung up on something near the firewall and I marred the gasket out in the "field" of the gasket material. I lifted the head back out and tried to smooth that section out as best I could and made the decision to try to lift the head back on again. I got it back on there and I think it is OK, but I won't be shocked if I blow the gasket at some point down the road. It's been almost 5000 miles since I did it though and everything seems fine. My lesson on that is that even if you are stronk enough to lift and carry the head alone, it's awkward to lower back down alone without doing what I did. If you can find a helper, it won't hurt, that is for sure.

 

[Dave 2000]

I agree lowering the head on your own can be awkward. I cut the heads off the old bolts, then grind a slot in the end, a couple of 'studs' are now in place, this allows correct alignment and leaves less chance of damaging anything. Use a screwdriver to pull the studs after fitting your (new?) bolts.

Regards

Dave

 

[Red Merle]

I agree lowering the head on your own can be awkward. I cut the heads off the old bolts, then grind a slot in the end, a couple of 'studs' are now in place, this allows correct alignment and leaves less chance of damaging anything. Use a screwdriver to pull the studs after fitting your (new?) bolts.

Regards

Dave

Wish I would have thought of that. It's a long head and even getting it up and in the area was a bit of a feat. I had to lift it up and set it on some bath towels to get it into the engine bay and then I had to climb up to be standing on a stool and extending my torso out to the point that I could lift it into position. It probably helps that I weigh a lot because the leverage of having my arms stretched out with the head in hand would have probably tipped a lighter person right in with it, which kinda happened anyway, which is how I screwed up in the first place. Bottom line, get new bolts and have another strong friend help you muscle it in.

 

[dogfishlake]

I think I would put out of spec oem bolts back in before I put in a set of Beck Arnley bolts unless it is proven they are from the exact same manufacturer (like an Aisin water pump to Toyota, for example). Either reuse, get new Toyota, or ARP would be my suggestion. If you do ARP, you are supposed to go back in after running a while (500 miles?) and retorque. That means pulling the cams out again - fun.

The bolts are intended to stretch and stay that way while in service. The measurement indicates that they did not spring back upon removal. This will likely provide inadequate clamping when reinstalled, hence the required replacement. I think with the new gasket and Toyota's confidence to reuse bolts, it would be absolutely ok to do so. I've got a set in service on their second go around now, so far so good.

 

[inkpot]

Regardless of my often spending the $ on the "While your in there" stuff, even with 195,000 on the engine and most of that with a TRD supercharger that is driven hard, all of my head bolts are well within spe , so I will re-use them all. My engine bores are all clean and bright with the cross hatches still quite evident, so back together it goes with a freshened head. Old head gasket looks so good I could reuse it if I was disparate. The original misfire problem has been confirmed as leaky valves on both intake and exhaust, front valves in cylinder #1.