Rehabbing historical windows

[Ebag333]

So I had a pane of glass break out of one of our windows the other day. Just randomly broke, no impacts or anything, best guess was repeated heat/cool cycles from winter finally got to it. It had a lot of flaws in it that were visible so no particular surprise that it broke. I'd say that 98 years is a pretty good run (that's assuming it's original, which is pretty likely).

Anyway, before slapping a new pane in, I was doing some research to consider all my options, and figured I'd see if anyone had done this before.

I'm basically looking at three options.

1) Replace with new windows. I'm disinclined to do this as I don't like the look of vinyl windows, and retrofitting new windows would be difficult and look off as these are very historical windows (not just four pieces of molding).

2) Sash replacement. I'm interested in this, as it would keep the window looking the same, but would let me have double pane instead of single pane. Problem here is that it's not cheap.

3) Replace the pane. Cheapest (and likely easiest) option. Before next winter I'd probably install some storm windows as the cost is pretty minimal and should double (or more) the insulation value. (From what I've read that brings the insulation value nearly up to that of the cheaper double pane windows.)



One big question I have is...any benefit to different types of glass? Not sure what I can get for single pane, but I see a lot of stuff out there advertising low emission, different thicknesses, etc.

Also, has anyone used the historical type of glass? Basically has waves in it to mimic the old style glass.

 

[PAToyota]

You can go with laminated glass without too much trouble (not much thicker) and it adds a slight insulating value over standard single pane. I did this for a historic front door and transom glass. Also has increased security - of value for my door application.

Studies have repeatedly shown that replacement windows aren't nearly the value that the manufacturers make them out to be. The Preservation Trades Network (PTN - of which I am a member) has a consortium working on standards for window preservation: http://www.ptnresource.org/WPSC_forum/index.php

 

[WarDamnEagle]

I'm assuming these are true divided light windows with individual panes. If so, you might be surprised how a new pane will stand out against the old glass. If you go with option 3, (if my assumptions are correct) then I would try to source it from a place that specializes in old glass. It's pretty easy to glaze it in yourself.

 

[agomez]

post some pics...If the original windows are in good working order then I would say keep them, especially if the house has historical value. I like the interior storm window idea, allowing you to preserve the exterior look of the house. Pella makes some great exterior metal clad wood windows only because my GF says so...

 

[Woodsman]

So I had a pane of glass break out of one of our windows the other day. Just randomly broke, no impacts or anything, best guess was repeated heat/cool cycles from winter finally got to it. It had a lot of flaws in it that were visible so no particular surprise that it broke. I'd say that 98 years is a pretty good run (that's assuming it's original, which is pretty likely).

Anyway, before slapping a new pane in, I was doing some research to consider all my options, and figured I'd see if anyone had done this before.

I'm basically looking at three options.

1) Replace with new windows. I'm disinclined to do this as I don't like the look of vinyl windows, and retrofitting new windows would be difficult and look off as these are very historical windows (not just four pieces of molding).

2) Sash replacement. I'm interested in this, as it would keep the window looking the same, but would let me have double pane instead of single pane. Problem here is that it's not cheap.

3) Replace the pane. Cheapest (and likely easiest) option. Before next winter I'd probably install some storm windows as the cost is pretty minimal and should double (or more) the insulation value. (From what I've read that brings the insulation value nearly up to that of the cheaper double pane windows.)



One big question I have is...any benefit to different types of glass? Not sure what I can get for single pane, but I see a lot of stuff out there advertising low emission, different thicknesses, etc.

Also, has anyone used the historical type of glass? Basically has waves in it to mimic the old style glass.

If you just need a single pane of glass I would recommend checking locally for architectural salvage shops which save these. Old glass is not as clear and certainly not as smooth as normal modern glass.

On a recent This Old House project, they had someone come in and totally rework the old windows and reinstall with modern weatherstripping. Several years ago they had a project where they did something similar but replaced the single pane windows with dual panes.

 

[Ebag333]

You can go with laminated glass without too much trouble (not much thicker) and it adds a slight insulating value over standard single pane. I did this for a historic front door and transom glass. Also has increased security - of value for my door application.

Studies have repeatedly shown that replacement windows aren't nearly the value that the manufacturers make them out to be. The Preservation Trades Network (PTN - of which I am a member) has a consortium working on standards for window preservation: WPSC • Index page

Yeah, I'm leaning towards rehabbing the existing ones rather than buying new windows or even sashes.

I've read a bit about laminated glass, sounds interesting.

I'm assuming these are true divided light windows with individual panes. If so, you might be surprised how a new pane will stand out against the old glass. If you go with option 3, (if my assumptions are correct) then I would try to source it from a place that specializes in old glass. It's pretty easy to glaze it in yourself.

It's actually single pane, single hung craftsman style windows. So don't have to deal with with muntins.

I've read that there are companies making "historic" style glass, not sure if I can even get it locally or not yet.

post some pics...If the original windows are in good working order then I would say keep them, especially if the house has historical value. I like the interior storm window idea, allowing you to preserve the exterior look of the house. Pella makes some great exterior metal clad wood windows only because my GF says so...

The windows actually aren't very functional, only a few of them open and close, though the ones that do function do so surprisingly well given their age. I think mostly it's because they have been painted shut over the years. I've heard of folks disassembling and fixing them (including new line, weights, pulleys, etc) and I've been tempted to try it myself.

No good pics but here's a crappy one. I actually fixed it, someone had cut a huge chunk out of the molding. Now you can't tell any damage has been done.

We have a Pella wood window in one of the rear bedrooms, it's actually one of their more expensive ones and looks pretty decent. Looks nothing like the original windows, but since it's part of the addition not much to do about it anyway.

If we do storm windows, it'll likely be exterior ones. Basically the old fashioned style, like this one.

Our winters here are super mild, so it's not as much for protecting the window though it certainly will help.

If you just need a single pane of glass I would recommend checking locally for architectural salvage shops which save these. Old glass is not as clear and certainly not as smooth as normal modern glass.

Yeah, the more I think about it the more I realize that a new piece of glass (new new, that is, not new but looks old) would look like crap. It'd bug the heck out of me seeing an odd piece of glass.

 

[WarDamnEagle]

We owned a house in the historical district in downtown Mobile years ago. It was built in 1912 and had that exact same moulding around the windows and doors. IIRC those windows had a single pane sash on the bottom and a divided light top sash.

They were also painted shut when we bought the house but we got them all working. You just need a stiff putty knife and a lot of patience. Needless to say you will also be touching up paint afterwards. I recall replacing some of the weight cords as well. I think they are accessed by removing the side trim pieces.

 

[Ebag333]

We owned a house in the historical district in downtown Mobile years ago. It was built in 1912 and had that exact same moulding around the windows and doors. IIRC those windows had a single pane sash on the bottom and a divided light top sash.

Some homes in that era came with divided light top sashes, some didn't. There's another home about a block away from ours with an identical design and built at the same time (though it seems to have suffered far less remodels over the years), they have the exact same windows.

No evidence ours had divided light sashes, though it certainly wouldn't look out of place.

Funny though, ours was started in 1912 and completed in 1914. I'd bet you'd recognize a lot of features if you walked through our house.

They were also painted shut when we bought the house but we got them all working. You just need a stiff putty knife and a lot of patience. Needless to say you will also be touching up paint afterwards. I recall replacing some of the weight cords as well. I think they are accessed by removing the side trim pieces.

Good to know. I've heard if you open up the window you can also insulate inside the weight runs, which can significantly help with drafts.

 

[WarDamnEagle]

Good to know. I've heard if you open up the window you can also insulate inside the weight runs, which can significantly help with drafts.

Probably but depends on the wall thickness. None of our walls were insulated so I didn't bother.

 

[PAToyota]

Probably but depends on the wall thickness. None of our walls were insulated so I didn't bother.

Not as much an issue of wall thickness as that the pockets can give you drafts. Most heat loss is through drafts rather than from heat "migration" through a wall. Although, if you have no insulation, you probably have drafts through other areas of the wall.

But, if you aren't replacing the windows, you need the pockets and the weights to be able to open the window!

 

[Ebag333]

But, if you aren't replacing the windows, you need the pockets and the weights to be able to open the window!

Yes, but I should be able to line the pockets with something (maybe some of that rigid foam insulation) and seal them.

 

[HenryAZ]

But, if you aren't replacing the windows, you need the pockets and the weights to be able to open the window!

Well after the cord rots, you can always prop it open with a stick

 

[WarDamnEagle]

Well after the cord rots, you can always prop it open with a stick

Been there; done that.

 

[Ebag333]

Well after the cord rots, you can always prop it open with a stick

Actually all our cords are in fantastic shape, other than they've been painted.

But rotting and rusting isn't much an issue here. I've seen vehicles left out in the middle of the woods for 50 years that would be considered restoration projects in other areas.

 

[PAToyota]

Yes, but I should be able to line the pockets with something (maybe some of that rigid foam insulation) and seal them.

Typically the pocket isn't that much bigger than the weight. You could probably caulk the joints of the pocket to eliminate drafts, but I'd doubt you'd get much rigid insulation in there. Plus, you'd have to disassemble the window jamb to get at the pocket.

Regrettably, I replaced the original windows in my bungalow with Marvin units that matched the Craftsman muntins and all. At some point in the house's history, aluminum storm windows had been placed on the outside of the windows and that was the last time any maintenance to the exterior of the windows had been performed. The sashes, sills, and stops had considerable rot from the moisture that had accumulated between the original window and the storm window over the years - the PO had caulked the drip holes in the storm windows, probably figuring that they were further sealing drafts...

 

[HenryAZ]

Typically the pocket isn't that much bigger than the weight. You could probably caulk the joints of the pocket to eliminate drafts, but I'd doubt you'd get much rigid insulation in there. Plus, you'd have to disassemble the window jamb to get at the pocket.

I have seen (and had to duplicate for a customer) well-made very old-time jambs that have a "door" for access to the pockets. The hole in the jamb is rabbeted top and bottom (inside on the bottom), and a piece of wood reverse rabbeted to lock into the hole, with one screw to hold it at the top. This of course allows even more air leakage, but hey they didn't care about that stuff back then. And you still would have to take out the parting bead to get the pocket "door" out.

 

[Michael Hanson]

Id go with 1/8 inch glass and back bed the glass after sealing the bars with linseed oil. Should not break if the glass is not a snug fit, also easy on putting in the small clips. Use oil based glaze not caulk. After 30 days prime and paint. MIke

 

[Ebag333]

Id go with 1/8 inch glass and back bed the glass after sealing the bars with linseed oil. Should not break if the glass is not a snug fit, also easy on putting in the small clips. Use oil based glaze not caulk. After 30 days prime and paint. MIke

Sorry, not my forte. Can you elaborate on "back bed the glass"?






Little update, have a glass shop guy coming out on Monday to give me some quotes on different types of glass. He said there is a company in Florida that makes a quasi-historical looking glass but the real looking stuff comes from overseas (but is prohibitively expensive). He wants to measure it and see how it's setup before he gives any estimates on price.

 

[PAToyota]

I have seen (and had to duplicate for a customer) well-made very old-time jambs that have a "door" for access to the pockets.

My windows have a door at the bottom of the pocket to access the weights - just slightly taller than the weights themselves. But you wouldn't be able to put rigid insulation in along the whole pocket from it. Were your doors full height?

 

[HenryAZ]

My windows have a door at the bottom of the pocket to access the weights - just slightly taller than the weights themselves. But you wouldn't be able to put rigid insulation in along the whole pocket from it. Were your doors full height?

Nope, just like yours. I really don't see any practical way to insulate pockets, unless you had the entire unit out of the wall, and did away with any access doors. And even then you'd have to use something more durable than traditional insulating materials because the weights would beat it up. Maybe also switch over to wire rope instead of sash cord, hoping you'd never have to go in there again.

Regarding safety laminate glass, if you go that route and replace it all (so it all matches), you can cut that yourself so you could save some by buying sheets.