Rear axle camber?

[Hardazclay]

At a tire shop getting the tires balanced because after rotating I have a vibration in the front end above 60mph. The tire shop owner told me I rotated them incorrectly. I asked if his way depended what type of suspension the vehicle has and he said it didn't matter. In his explanation he claimed even solid rear axles have camber built in from the factory. Can someone clarify this claim because I'm under the impression this isn't true.

 

[gnob]

not true. should be zero.

 

[Hardazclay]

He just took me into the bay while my GX was on the lift to show me how my suspension works and he proved to me he has no idea what he's talking about.

 

[Hardazclay]

Now he refuses to torque the lugs down to anything less than 100ft lbs. Says l'll lose a tire if I don't. Seems like 83ft lbs did fine for the last 18 years and 142,000 miles.

 

[wrmathis]

Now he refuses to torque the lugs down to anything less than 100ft lbs. Says l'll lose a tire if I don't. Seems like 83ft lbs did fine for the last 18 years and 142,000 miles.

so he knows more than lexus/toyota engineers and their FSM?

 

[Hardazclay]

so he knows more than lexus/toyota engineers and their FSM?

I'm surprised how many people I meet who think exactly that.

 

[Ignignot]

Personally I dont rotate tires on 4wd cars to avoid this kind of situation. In my experience the risk of negatively impacting ride quality far outweighs getting an extra 6000mi out of a set of tires.

 

[aztoytec]

You need to find another repair shop…

 

[Hardazclay]

You need to find another repair shop…

Yeah I don't appreciate being told I'm an owner who think he knows everything. I've been trying to find a good tire shop in town without much luck.

 

[HomersCanyonero]

While rear camber on a GX470 is set to neutral (0%) from the factory, there are reasons why I’m at 0.5% rear camber.

One is my rear links bushings are 21.7 years old and falling apart.

Two is I have a rear long travel shocks and coils with a 2” to 2.5” lift.

So, there are ways you can impact rear caster and not be running at neutral.

 

[Rednexus]

Get a new shop for sure.

I rotate the tires on my GX at every oil change (5K miles). This keeps them wearing very nice/evenly. If they are wearing uneven, it's because there is an alignment issue or they aren't getting rotated. Rotating tires will help them wear more evenly - that's the purpose for all vehicles whether RWD/FWD/AWD/4WD. I also don't think it's possible to rotate incorrectly. I usually alternate between a H and X pattern - but don't see how any pattern could lead to a bad result in a vehicle that is aligned properly.

It there is a vibration issue, it's usually because the tire is worn down to the point where it's out-of-balance due to losing tread mass, the tire threw a balance weight, or there is a chunk of mud/snow/etc. on the tire/wheel throwing the balance off. If those items don't' fix it, it's probably something in the suspension or driveline.

Regardless, 5K rotations and yearly balance and alignment jobs will keep the tires in very good shape on one of these rigs.

 

[Ignignot]

 

[Hardazclay]

Get a new shop for sure.

I rotate the tires on my GX at every oil change (5K miles). This keeps them wearing very nice/evenly. If they are wearing uneven, it's because there is an alignment issue or they aren't getting rotated. Rotating tires will help them wear more evenly - that's the purpose for all vehicles whether RWD/FWD/AWD/4WD. I also don't think it's possible to rotate incorrectly. I usually alternate between a H and X pattern - but don't see how any pattern could lead to a bad result in a vehicle that is aligned properly.

It there is a vibration issue, it's usually because the tire is worn down to the point where it's out-of-balance due to losing tread mass, the tire threw a balance weight, or there is a chunk of mud/snow/etc. on the tire/wheel throwing the balance off. If those items don't' fix it, it's probably something in the suspension or driveline.

Regardless, 5K rotations and yearly balance and alignment jobs will keep the tires in very good shape on one of these rigs.

On my previous set of tires I performed H pattern rotations every 5k and never had an issue. I regrettably didn't perform this rotation until almost 10k due to a cross country trip. In hindsight I wish a paid a shop to do the rotation at 5k instead of waiting to get back home. I'm sure letting the tires wear down was my primary issue.

Really just needed to vent about the unprofessionalism of the tire shops in town. I've had one try to scam me on the Missouri safety inspection. Another broke a brand new OEM TPMS sensor and didn't program the TPMS system correctly. Now this third shop has me moving on to a forth.

 

[Rednexus]

On my previous set of tires I performed H pattern rotations every 5k and never had an issue. I regrettably didn't perform this rotation until almost 10k due to a cross country trip. In hindsight I wish a paid a shop to do the rotation at 5k instead of waiting to get back home. I'm sure letting the tires wear down was my primary issue.

Really just needed to vent about the unprofessionalism of the tire shops in town. I've had one try to scam me on the Missouri safety inspection. Another broke a brand new OEM TPMS sensor and didn't program the TPMS system correctly. Now this third shop has me moving on to a forth.

Where are you located? I have a pretty good shop over here in SEMO.

10K rotations isn't terrible if the rig has a good alignment that isn't causing uneven tire wear. You may have just thrown a balance weight, which happens all the time.

 

[Rednexus]

Sorry, I don't buy that. It's <10 minutes to rotate tires on my rig with a jack, set of jackstands, and M18 impact. My tires all make it right up to the treadwear warranty and never have any types of unusual wear.

 

[Ignignot]

Sorry, I don't buy that. It's <10 minutes to rotate tires on my rig with a jack, set of jackstands, and M18 impact. My tires all make it right up to the treadwear warranty and never have any types of unusual wear.

Glad to hear it works for you as long as:
you start with new tires
and follow rotation schedule religiously
and dont use directional tires
or staggered tires
and your suspension and alignment are perfect
and none of your suspension or drivetrain components are worn or sagging
and your tires are worn evenly


Im seeing OP has a problem after tire rotation. I have personally had problems with steering tracking and vibrations after tire rotations. I saw another dude in the daily thread last week had a problem after tire rotation as well. It happens. I also run 2 cars with staggered directional tires (FWD and RWD) and do just fine on real vs expected treadwear without ever rotating.

If im talking to someone who asks me if they should start rotating thier tires ill tell them it actually might cause an issue especially if the tires have already started wearing unevenly, and all things considered will only save them about $200 over 6 years if they do the rotation themselves and dont pay anyone to do any of the rotations.

At 200,000mi my rears are definitely sagging into some camber.

 

[Hardazclay]

Where are you located? I have a pretty good shop over here in SEMO.

10K rotations isn't terrible if the rig has a good alignment that isn't causing uneven tire wear. You may have just thrown a balance weight, which happens all the time.

I'm between KC and Jeff City. I installed a new Dobinsons suspension just before the new tires and had Adventure Motors in KC do the alignment. They are a very reputable custom shop that specialize in Toyotas so I know the alignment was done correctly.

The recent balance fixed my vibration issue and the young man who did the balance (not the jerk owner) said the front right was way out so I believe it threw a weight when the tire was on the rear and I didn't notice until I swapped it to the front.

 

[Hardazclay]

Glad to hear it works for you as long as:
you start with new tires
and follow rotation schedule religiously
and dont use directional tires
or staggered tires
and your suspension and alignment are perfect
and none of your suspension or drivetrain components are worn or sagging
and your tires are worn evenly


Im seeing OP has a problem after tire rotation. I have personally had problems with steering tracking and vibrations after tire rotations. I saw another dude in the daily thread last week had a problem after tire rotation as well. It happens. I also run 2 cars with staggered directional tires (FWD and RWD) and do just fine on real vs expected treadwear without ever rotating.

If im talking to someone who asks me if they should start rotating thier tires ill tell them it actually might cause an issue especially if the tires have already started wearing unevenly, and all things considered will only save them about $200 over 6 years if they do the rotation themselves and dont pay anyone to do any of the rotations.

At 200,000mi my rears are definitely sagging into some camber.
View attachment 3769493View attachment 3769496

The dude in the daily thread last week was me so this is the same vehicle. I think it would be interesting to compare, in my case, paying someone $40 every 5k miles to rotate and balance, to not spending that money and have to replace my tires earlier. Would the decrease in tire life cost more or less then all the rotations? I would guess the rotations would cost more but not by a massive margin.

Moving forward I will still do my own rotations every 5k and get a balance if I need it and accept that's the cost of doing business. These vehicles are tanks but they cost more to maintain if you want them to stay in top shape and avoid surprises. These vehicles can also go forever with minimal maintenance and be just fine so it comes down to the owners use case and budget.

When I was 17 I had a defective tire blow out causing an accident and my vehicle was totaled. Performing the rotation gives me a chance to give the tires a nice once over to see if I have any nails or defects like a bulge developing. Not to mention check the suspension and other components and prioritize future repairs. After that accident I have a hard time not paying close attention to my tires.

 

[HomersCanyonero]

The dude in the daily thread last week was me so this is the same vehicle. I think it would be interesting to compare, in my case, paying someone $40 every 5k miles to rotate and balance, to not spending that money and have to replace my tires earlier. Would the decrease in tire life cost more or less then all the rotations? I would guess the rotations would cost more but not by a massive margin.

Moving forward I will still do my own rotations every 5k and get a balance if I need it and accept that's the cost of doing business. These vehicles are tanks but they cost more to maintain if you want them to stay in top shape and avoid surprises. These vehicles can also go forever with minimal maintenance and be just fine so it comes down to the owners use case and budget.

When I was 17 I had a defective tire blow out causing an accident and my vehicle was totaled. Performing the rotation gives me a chance to give the tires a nice once over to see if I have any nails or defects like a bulge developing. Not to mention check the suspension and other components and prioritize future repairs. After that accident I have a hard time not paying close attention to my tires.

That’s a good background story. Sometimes your perspective on things depends on your life experience.

I think that going over the suspension and tires every 5k to check for issues is way more valuable than the rotation itself.

Two things happened to me recently with tires.

I swapped my wheels from 17x9 -12 to 17x7.5 zero offset. Tire shop did balance.

And I developed a vibration at highway speeds between ~60 mph and 72 mph

I rotated one side to see if it would go away…it didn’t. After a couple months and a 5-hr trip to offroad…I decided to do a road force balance at another tire shop that had the machine to do this. To my surprise it fixed the problem.

Two months later…I’m adjusting the circlip on my bilstein 6112s…so remove my front wheels and one lug nut is missing.

I think I lost it…can’t find it for 3 days. It turns out my tire shop forgot to install one. I went to the tire shop and they had it. I guess it’s not the first time they forget to put back all 6 lug nuts.

So, Checking the condition of your tires and suspension every 5k is well worth the tire rotation even if you take it to a shop!