Radiator Upgrades

[mts]

I am thinking up trying to upgrade my radiator before the SC install. What are the differences between the 95-97 and the earlier radiators. IIRC, the 95-97 were 2 row aluminum and the older ones were 3 row brass. I had asked this same question on the SOR forum and Cruiserdan was kind enough to provide the info, but I didn't print it out and i can't get it now.

Also, any info on larger capacity aftermarket radiators would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Mike

 

[cruiserdan]

Mike,

You remembered correctly. The 93-4 radiator is the 3 row brass core.......It drops right in a 95-7, not a problem. I'm not at work yet so I don't have the part number handy, I think it's 16400-66040. It lists for about 510 bucks.

Photoman had a radiator built for his 40th and he uses electric fans. I do not know how badly that cratered his billfold.

I will confirm the part number for you in a bit.......

Regards...Dan

 

[cruiserdan]

Mike,

 The 3 row 93-4 is a 16400-66040. Toyota's published price is $501.01. You could probably ge one for around 400.00 if you can wheel and deal. BTW the 2 row rad, 16400-66081 sells for $611.75.........go figure :

 

[mts]

Thanks Dan! I think I'll clean my current radiator up and see what my temps are before making the change. I will probably run water injection when I am towing/when its really hot outside, so that may be all I need (if I even need that). I figure better to be safe than sorry.

Mike

 

[Hltoppr]

:bow: :bow: :bow:CRUISERDAN!

I can't believe you can quote radiator part numbers off the top of your head! Perhaps some professional help is available? You sir, may indeed have a cruiser problem!

-H-

 

[cruiserdan]

I believe that it is one of the symptoms from being in the car business for 24+ years.........

The other one would be

 

[Photoman]

I had a radiator built by C&R Racing in Indianapolis, IN. I had to pay $75.00 to have the plans drawn that are supposed to be mine. If it helps anyone I would be glad to allow them to use the plans to get a radiator. Just a guess on the total cost was $1200.00 to $1500.00 as I was in a hurry and had to keep overnighting the rad and shroud back and forth having changes made. That did include two electric fans - one $150.00 and the other $100.00. Also, two shrouds were in that at about $150.00 each. If anyone is interested it would be better to talk to me as there are other changes that I now know would be better. FWIW it did not cure my supercharger overheating problems.
Bill

 

[mts]

FWIW it did not cure my supercharger overheating problems.
Bill

Bill,

I remember reading on SOR how you had so many problems with the overheating. Have you considered water injection? I think I will try it on mine. I've owned an Eaton SC on another vehicle before. I was running quite a bit of boost with it and as a result was using an air/water intercooler to cool the charge. However, several other folks I knew were running water injection on lower boost systems and it worked very well. For the cruiser, the water injection should work much better than an intercooler because its such a low boost application. I've seen 60+ degree temperature drops with it on a 6psi blower (the smaller Eaton M45). According to Eaton's website the M90 (the one used for the cruiser) can increase temps 100+ degrees.....but I guess you were already painfully aware of that. :-[

Mike

 

[cruiserdan]

Mike,
Where does the water enter the intake system? Years ago I had a turbo on a 20R and I injected water into the air cleaner, before the SU carb I had on there. Same principle?

I had to use washer solvent in the winter to prevent freezing. Again, same principle?

Regards...Dan

 

[mts]

Dan,

I've seen it plumbed in a couple different ways with the Eaton blowers. The most widely used and most recommended place that I have seen is just after the blower before the intake. The pump is usually triggered by a certain boost level (say 3 or 4psi would be a good number most likely for the LC blower). A chart of the increase in intake temps on the M90 at 5psi is here:
http://www.automotive.eaton.com/product/engine_controls/M90.html

A second way I've seen it done is to be plumbed before the blower and the water actually runs through the unit. One guy I know swears by this method and has had it done that for a while with no problems. For me, I'll be using the first method.

As for in cold temps, you are dead on. Most use methanol of some type of alcohol to keep things from freezing. For me, I'll most likely bypass the water unit in the winter months as I think it will be most usefull when towing/temps are high.

www.aquamist.com has a bunch of info on their site on the subject. I'll most likely purchase this unit with a check valve for my cruiser:
http://www.flyinmiata.com/Store/prodinfo.asp?number=05-36000&variation=&aitem=1&mitem=3

There's another unit available that I have seen that is completely programable as to when it comes on, etc., but it's about twice as expensive and seems like a little overkill to me for the cruiser application. I've also seen them custom built by people for <$100, but I'm not much on the whole custom fabrication thing myself (no talent). :-[

The car I race is a heavily modified turbo Miata, and the place I listed above has great people working there. They are kind of the "Slee Off Road" of the Miata world. In additon, they are currently experimenting with water injection in combination with an air/air intercooler on their 20+psi turbo track car. Should be interesting.

Mike

 

[Hltoppr]

Mike, I think additional beta on Photoman's rig is necessary. Photo's is VERY set up and VERY heavy! You may not have the same problems with overheating and the custom radiator he has. Cruiserdan and Junk are both blown and not quite as heavy, you might ask them their experiences with the stock radiator.

-H-

 

[bjowett]

Most forced induction vehicles should have a good dedicated external oil to air heat exchanger. That should get a handle on the heat problems....

Are you guys running intercoolers yet?

 

[mts]

bjowett,

There's a couple basic problems with an intercooler on the TRD SC. First if its not a total custom job, they're expensive, especially the air/water ones.

Second, on the air/air ones (which are generally the most efficient ones cooling wise), you'll normally see a 1-2psi pressure drop between the blower and the intake(even on the most efficient ones). On the TRD SC which is a 4-5psi system, you can already see the problem....you've just turned your 4-5psi system into a 2-3psi system trying to get the temps down to ambient. You can compensate for this by using a smaller nose pulley and spinning the blower faster, but the Eaton units really start to crank out the heat the faster they are spun. In addition, the faster you spin an Eaton the most parasitic hp losses you'll incur. There's definitely a happy point in there somewhere between blower speed and intake temps you have to find. For a turbo application, its generally much easier to increase the boost pressure without loosing to much efficiency to compensate for the air/air IC.

The air/water IC's typically have a much smaller pressure drop (because of the inherent design). They tend to work better with low boost SC applications. The better ones are quite pricey though. A friend of mine custom did a spearco a/w IC for an Eaton unit and it still cost him close to $1,000. I've seen at least 1 custom a/w IC on a cruiser though.....I think it was post on the 80's cool list.

Mike

 

[Photoman]

-h-, you are right on. In my experience the overheating problems come from running at sustained boost. Driving around town and getting on it every once in awhile probably will not cause overheating. Running heavy, pulling a load up hill, running into a headwind, or climbing a mountain - better watch the gauge.
Mike - I can't thank you enough for the info on water injection. From what I can tell the major consideration is in the number/size of the injectors. My wife had one of the first Miata's out and if I remember correctly it had something like a 1.9L engine. Just curious as to how you chose that Miata model for the 4.5 as you seem to know a good bit about these systems. Ready to order tomorrow!
Bill

 

[cruiserdan]

Bill, This may be the Grail...

 Mike what effect would this have on knocking? I imagine that it would cut it way back. Two birds with one stone possibly?   On my old truck I had a hobbs switch that closed the circuit at 4lbs....The pump was a washer jar motor as it was not injecting into a pressurized environment. If this would cure my high speed full boost knock, I'm in.......What if we buy togther and see if we can save a few bucks.......

  Regards......Dan

Now, how big is the tank and where do you put it?

 

[Photoman]

Dan,
Fingers shaking on the keyboard. If you read the links it says reduces knocking - lowers temps. I'm in. Just need the right model. Mike, what do you want - money - 6's - women - many women?
Bill

 

[cruiserdan]

Bill,

Let's go.......Where to put the tank? How often do you re-fill?...ETC.....


ANSWER US MIKE......... :bow:

 

[scottm]

Perhaps post SC injection would be better. I seem to recall steam turbines can be quickly eroded by water droplets, the steam must be dry (vapor) to avoid this. Also, after the SC you'd have the most cooling from water injection due to the higher temps getting more complete phase change (evaporation). I don't think you'd want to increase the air density (from cooling) before the SC anyway. Some fighter jets use an alcohol/water mix to improve cooling and prevent icing at high altitudes/low temps.

 

[bjowett]

bjowett,

There's a couple basic problems with an intercooler on the TRD SC.  First if its not a total custom job, they're expensive, especially the air/water ones.  

Second, on the air/air ones (which are generally the most efficient ones cooling wise), you'll normally see a 1-2psi pressure drop between the blower and the intake(even on the most efficient ones).  On the TRD SC which is a 4-5psi system, you can already see the problem....you've just turned your 4-5psi system into a 2-3psi system trying to get the temps down to ambient.  You can compensate for this by using a smaller nose pulley and spinning the blower faster, but the Eaton units really start to crank out the heat the faster they are spun.  In addition, the faster you spin an Eaton the most parasitic hp losses you'll incur.  There's definitely a happy point in there somewhere between blower speed and intake temps you have to find.  For a turbo application, its generally much easier to increase the boost pressure without loosing to much efficiency to compensate for the air/air IC.

The air/water IC's typically have a much smaller pressure drop (because of the inherent design).  They tend to work better with low boost SC applications.  The better ones are quite pricey though.  A friend of mine custom did a spearco a/w IC for an Eaton unit and it still cost him close to $1,000.  I've seen at least 1 custom a/w IC on a cruiser though.....I think it was post on the 80's cool list.

Mike

Pressure drop depends on the IC... I've done quite a few systems, using SC or turbos, and both air/air and air/water ICs. You should be able to design something to function in there properly. I guess the real question is would one gain power via the density increase of the air despite the P drop. Just look at what the oems do.

You guys have more experience with this system, so you probably know more than I. Just trying to help.

Anyway... a large external oil cooler with a 180F t-stat will probably solve your problems. If I recall correctly, Toyota uses an oil to water cooler on the 80 series, which will simply cause higher coolant temps.

Make sure you look up the CONS of water injection.

 

[scottm]

Your goal is more oxygen into the cylinders, your limitation is how much pressure your compressor can put out. If a perfect compressor puts out 1 bar (14.7psi), it makes two liters into one. If it doubles the temp of the air, it can only make 1.5 liters into one at the same pressure, because the air expands. By cooling the air downstream of the compressor, you reduce it's pressure, the compressor can pack more air in up to it's pressure limit.

For obvious reasons, water injected jets use distilled water.

-Scott
And if I claim to be a wiseman
it surely means that I don't know.