R&P Adjust .. (1 Viewer)

[Tapage]

Maybe no tooo hard core .. but know figure here I can get some advice ..

On the weekend I was working on my R&P rebuild FZJ-80 rear axle .. I reach proper backlash measure with the dial meter, and center drive tooth contact fine .. but my coast contact pathern looks poor. Add another shim to the pinion to get it close to the ring and loose my drive contact pathern .. so I remove the shim and asemble all with the right drive contact but poor coast contact ( close to the inner corner of the ring tooth ).

Short tale .. I get a horrible sound from my 3rd member .. and need to pull it again.

I'm little loose at this point coz with proper backlash set not sure which other variable need to adjust to set it right drive and coast ..

Any advice it's higly apreciated ..

David

 

[sixty]

I just went thru this on a Moser 9". It sounds like you are setting up used gears. We went back and forth and could only get the drive or coast side to look good. We re-shimmed it probably 15 times. half the gear setters we talked to said thats pretty normal and just run it with the good contact on the drive side, Moser said to pull it out .006", but we already tried that & the drive side looked horrible.

We finally decided to just run it and from the marks on the gears, thats about where they had broken in previously anyways. there was no noise and the gears sound fine. The only reason we were so picky is that the gears were going in my buddies blown/ nox 800hp Nova. It finally came down to all of the load being on the drive side so we decided not to worry about the coast side.

If your drive side contact is is good, it should be quiet under load, but be noisy when coasting (but not that bad). If you have alot of noise but your pattern is adequate I'd look at the bearings. just because they are new does not mean they are good. I've had a couple of bearings in kits go straight in the trash from the box because they were not smooth.

Post up some pics of your pattern if you have them.

 

[Tapage]

Thanks dude ..

Yes .. used gears .. maybe the issue is there. I was talking with my mechanic ( old men with the hole experience ) and he said for used gears let it with more backlash. I set it at .08 as Presision Gear recomends, but he said do more at least .10.

At low rpm ( means 1st and 2nd ) runs nice .. but up to 3rd and more it start howl horrible ( to me ). I will worn in this tonight or tomorrow and would take pics ( wife's Cruiser .. so she's not really happy taking pics of her Cruiser internals .. )

Where usually are the place for the pinion shims .. behind the bearings reacer or in the pinion neck ?

Thanks !

 

[sixty]

The gears in theory should run cooler & more quiet with added backlash. As long as you are within the spec and the pattern is centered you should not hear the gears at all. I would check the bearings. some may look fine but when felt by hand will feel rough.

Did your pattern match the wear pattern on the used gears? I would say don't worry, but a growling rear end is something that needs to be addressed or will fail very rapidly. When you pull the 3rd and the gears are the culprit, you should see a radically different wear pattern on the gears.

the pinion shims are located under the inner race on ever cruiser 3rd I've done, but I've never done a high pinion cruiser 3rd. it really does not matter where they are located, just that they are easier to replace when under the inner race vs's the pinion.


one other thing.... I bought a used ARB 3rd from one of the pirates and he forgot to install the crush sleve. It growled like crazy after a few miles (he only ran it once in his front). Did you install the crush sleve or shims?

 

[Tapage]

Did your pattern match the wear pattern on the used gears?

you got me here .. match the wear pathern .. mmm not .. didn't pay atention to this issue .. !

I would say don't worry, but a growling rear end is something that needs to be addressed or will fail very rapidly. When you pull the 3rd and the gears are the culprit

Yeah .-. I know .. she's not driving the cruiser right now, tomorrow I will take the hole day to put it apart and check it again ... promise some pics .

Did you install the crush sleve or shims?

Actually I order a new one crush sleeve from toyota yesterday to use a fresh new one tomorrow, new nut, and see what I can do.

 

[Mace]

take pics of the pattern.

This is a rear axle, is it a high pinion unit? I am thinking it shoudl be a low pinion. Unless I missed something..

LP, then set the pattern correct for the coast side and set backlash a bit loose.

HP, set the pattern for the Drive side and backlash a bit loose..

Pics

 

[sixty]

take pics of the pattern.

This is a rear axle, is it a high pinion unit? I am thinking it shoudl be a low pinion. Unless I missed something..

LP, then set the pattern correct for the coast side and set backlash a bit loose.

HP, set the pattern for the Drive side and backlash a bit loose..

Pics

LP or HP shouldn't make a difference, they call it the drive side for a reason thats why Hp is usually reverse cut.

We were told by some guys to set it to the drive side & some said the coast side. This was by a few differnt gear setters accross the country that my buddy knows from racing.

The drive side guys had the best argument so we went with them. I've come to the conclusion that gear setting is just like politics and religion

 

[Mace]

LP or HP shouldn't make a difference, they call it the drive side for a reason thats why Hp is usually reverse cut.

I know, but on a HP what I was thinking was that the front would not have much of a wear pattern on the drive side because the front end is not really used much. That is assuming that the non usa 80 series were not awd. Which is probably a wrong assumption now that I think about it. If it is a HP in the rear, he will then be running on the coast side, which should be the least abused portion of the ring gear unless it has been in the rear end for a while..

We were told by some guys to set it to the drive side & some said the coast side. This was by a few differnt gear setters accross the country that my buddy knows from racing.

The drive side guys had the best argument so we went with them. I've come to the conclusion that gear setting is just like politics and religion

The way I see it and the way it was explained to me is that you cannot set a proper pattern on the drive side of a gear because of wear. The pinion needs to be resetup at the same basic place it was for the first portion of it's life. And recreating the original pinion location is easier to do if you set up the pattern to look good on the coast side (essentially the non used side) of the gearset because it is closer to the factory setting.

 

[Tapage]

And recreating the original pinion location is easier to do if you set up the pattern to look good on the coast side (essentially the non used side) of the gearset because it is closer to the factory setting.

That make a ton of sense Mace ..

Yes it's a rear low pinion SF axles non usa part time 80 series with manual tranny .. ( ja .. good JOB with C-clips and daba daba daba .. )

I set the driverside and let the coast to the inner side of the ring .. looks by your statement that I made the complete horrible desision ..

Actually when I set the gears first time, with no chims it take a good goast contact pathern and I set to .10 backlash in the dial meter ..

Should be more . ?

 

[sixty]

The way I see it and the way it was explained to me is that you cannot set a proper pattern on the drive side of a gear because of wear. The pinion needs to be resetup at the same basic place it was for the first portion of it's life. And recreating the original pinion location is easier to do if you set up the pattern to look good on the coast side (essentially the non used side) of the gearset because it is closer to the factory setting.

This makes sense to me too, except that the wear pattern on the gear was in the correct place and when we had a good pattern on the drive side it matched the existing wear pattern on the gear. We also ended up with the correct checking distance (as marked on the pinion) making the drive side have a good pattern and the coast side look too far out on the tooth face.

I've run some questionable patterns on dana's since it's a pain to get a good pattern and never experienced pronounced noisy gears, not to say that a bad pattern can't cause your problem, but I think the problem is elsewhere.

Get us pics of the pattern as well as pics of the wear pattern and maybe we can see what is happening.

Used gears can be a total pain in the rear (pun intended)

 

[sixty]

I set the driverside and let the coast to the inner side of the ring .. looks by your statement that I made the complete horrible desision ..


Should be more . ?

When you say the inner side of the ring, do you mean from heel to toe (outside of ring to inside of ring towards center of carrier)? if so this could be your problem. The crucial alignment is from the face to the root of the tooth. This is supposed to be centered.

 

[Mario]

Pay a mechanic and don't screw up !!

 

[Tapage]

Pay a mechanic and don't screw up !!

Daahhhh ! get back in the mud and less forum off road ..

Ok here the pics . are not dfetailed pics since I was fill of grease and oil to get the camera and take pics .. heavy day, starting at 8 AM and working from 10 AM to 4 PM seting the contact pathern and back to mount the 3rd member ..

Time to found the right shims included ..

Here how it start .. ( horrible houling )

After 8 times .. adding chims, remove chims, change chims .. end with a decent ( very decent ) drive contact pathern. My old Mechanic said was PITA set used gears and much more if they come from diferent housings .. and are old.

At the end used 3 chims at the pinion neck ( sorry not pictured ) that all together where close to .14 ( thought pretty much ) and used crush sleed ( have the new one from Toyota but again the old men said was not necesary ). New pinion nut and he recomends me use the new pinion nut, but no more than 60 p/ft or pre load on the pinion nut ..

Here how it end ..

needless to add was not asembled by the book .. but I do by the book the first time and it din't function so I give a chance this time only based on the old men experience and it function.

The last one ..

 

[sixty]

Thats a well used set of gears for sure. What are you using for marking compound? I cannot tell much from the pics, but it looks like some sort of blue waxy substance placed on the pinion head. I prefer genuine gear marking compound, but I get good results from anti-sieze, even though they say not to use it. I would re-run the pattern using something else.

If you are happy with the pattern and it is quiet, then run it. Most toyota rears I have done have ended up being in the .018 - .015 range with a good pattern. @ .14" (140 thousanths????) I have never seen that much under the pinion.

If you are careful, there is no problem with re-using a crush sleve. when tightening the nut, you can feel the point at which it starts to crush again and stop there. it will only slightly add pre-load. I usually re-use nuts a couple of time before replacing them when the staking area gets too mangled or the threads get loose.

 

[Tapage]

Permatex Prussian Blue

PERMATEX® Prussian Blue

Aids precision fitting of machined surfaces. Locates high spots on bearings, valves, gears and other close-to-tolerance components. Non-drying. Easy clean-up.

Suggested Applications:
Bearings, valves, gears, other close tolerance or machined assemblies.

I'm not really good with those numbers that barely you can read .. actually I have a digital caliper ..

So probably we are talking about .014 ..

 

[Mace]

wait, are you setting backlash with that caliper???

As for the Prussian blue, put a TON more on there. You do not have anything resembling a contact patch..

 

[Wile E Coyote]

wait, are you setting backlash with that caliper???

As for the Prussian blue, put a TON more on there. You do not have anything resembling a contact patch..

Yep, you should be usinga magnetic stand with an attached dial indicator to set backlash. Here's a link perhaps you can get some tips from.http://members.cox.net/cglabe1/Diff/diff.html

Here's what a decent amount of marking compound should look like

 

[Tapage]

wait, are you setting backlash with that caliper???

As for the Prussian blue, put a TON more on there. You do not have anything resembling a contact patch..

Hey .. I'm not that stupid ! I'm using one like this one ..

As for the prussian blue .. the pic was taken when I already clean ( partially ) the ring ..

 

[Mace]

harder to tell if the pattern is good if you clean off the ring gear before taking the pic

 

[Tapage]

harder to tell if the pattern is good if you clean off the ring gear before taking the pic

Sorry .. really at the end the pic was more show than any other thing, coz I need to put it all together and make the 80 run .. ( you never want your wife as your boss in your garage ! )

SO I take the chance and it funcition .