Quebec ban now permanent (1 Viewer)

[crushers]

just a heads up:
https://forum.ih8mud.com/70-series-tech/380124-quebec-ban-now-permanent.html#post5488411
since a great number of the Land Cruisers in Canada now are RHD this might apply to you in the near future...
Quebec ban now permanent - IVOAC.ca Forums

if it can happen in one province then it can happen in anyone of them.

 

[roscoFJ73]

So what happens to existing RHD vehicles in Quebec?

Vehicles registered or imported before 29/4/2009 or visiting are exempt

 

[Lost]

i think this law would trump the ban

from the criminal code of canada; Criminal Code

Defence with Claim of Right
39. (1) Every one who is in peaceable possession of a personal property under a claim of right, and every one acting under his authority, is protected from criminal responsibility for defending that possession, even against a person entitled by law to possession of it, if he uses no more force than is necessary

 

[roscoFJ73]

i think this law would trump the ban

from the criminal code of canada; Criminal Code

Defence with Claim of Right
39. (1) Every one who is in peaceable possession of a personal property under a claim of right, and every one acting under his authority, is protected from criminal responsibility for defending that possession, even against a person entitled by law to possession of it, if he uses no more force than is necessary

Escape hatches are never that easy and Quebec doesnt appear to be confiscating landcruisers

 

[Lost]

the "law" is not an escape hatch, know your rights and remedies

Defence without claim of right

(2) Every one who is in peaceable possession of personal property, but does not claim it as of right or does not act under the authority of a person who claims it as of right, is not justified or protected from criminal responsibility for defending his possession against a person who is entitled by law to possession of it.

R.S., c. C-34, s. 39.

same apply in australia worded differently

 

[ForealBoreal]

the problem is no one has the time or money to challenge it in court so nothing will happen about it. Its really unfortunate....

so will people who bought a vehicle say on april 1st 09 and tried to get it inspected on the 29th but the shops wouldn't let them, are they allowed to finally pass the vehicle and get it on the road?

 

[roscoFJ73]

Seems to be talking about ownership rather than the right to drive it on the road.

I can still import any vehicle I want into oz but the govt ,state and federal,have the right to refuse me lic and insurance to make it road legal.

 

[roscoFJ73]

the problem is no one has the time or money to challenge it in court so nothing will happen about it. Its really unfortunate....

so will people who bought a vehicle say on april 1st 09 and tried to get it inspected on the 29th but the shops wouldn't let them, are they allowed to finally pass the vehicle and get it on the road?

If they can show proof it was imported before the 29th of april they are cool.

 

[canucksafari]

It is probably time to take IVOAC to the next step and make it a formal organization by incorporating it and having paid members who are owners and paid members who are businesses who make good money off these imports. Until it is a legal entity with some serious cash behind it, it will not likely be much more than a group of enthusiast BSing, selling their vehicles or learning how to import them or get them registered.

Quebec was easy for the Auto industry to get gov to jump into bed with them. There were very few non-sports car RHD owners in the province. BC will be a whole other ball game given the numbers of RHDs here now. However, I would expect them to hit the top dog soon. If BC falls, they then will have the whole country.

Even as it is in Quebec, it is nothing more than a ministerial order as apposed to legislation. It is very funny that they call it permanent. Even legislation can be changed. A ministerial order is a lot weaker than a legislated law.

The big question is do RHD owners in Canada and the businesses who make good money off these imports have the fortitude to check their egos and self-interest at the door and take it to the next level as a united association??? Funny, the big players in the industry seem to be able to do this.

 

[crushers]

well,
first. all RHD that are registered in Quebec are grandfathered.
those that can prove the vehicle was imported in the proper time frame will be able to register by May 31 (pretty obscene time frame)
anyone else can drive a RHD in Quebec EXCEPT Quebec'rs. (maybe the Quebec government feels that Quebec'rs are not as good a drivers as say people from Ontario <insert roll eyes>)
i have already started organizing behind the scenes. i left IVOAC (as well as other key members) due to a dividing force within IVOAC. we will be going back to basics of the fight as IVOAC was originally intended to be. we will be working with the members in Quebec to fight this. we lose in Quebec and we might as well give up on having ANY freedoms in this country.

John, it isn't the incorporation of IVOAC that will win respect, it is actually taking action. we dropped the ball with the ICBC report, actually we didn't drop the ball - we buried it 6 ft under. we can not let that happen again. we will be working with a registered organization in Quebec so if we need the credentials for the fight then they already are there for us. if need be we can blend in (as persons) into that body.

FB, money is needed but we have an important member in Quebec that has some free time now. it is important to back him since he will be the one to take the fight there.

just thought others should know, in case anyone wants to help out here.

cheers

 

[Lost]

well in legal lala land, words have different meanings, like a road is actually a highway under mva

and theres a difference between driving and travelling, and a diference between a motor vehicle an a automobile(private conveyance|).

driving a motor vehicle is a commercial activity and is contracted by motor vehicle act, highway traffic act and insurance act... through police enforcement and insurance companys

everyone have the unlienable right to travel unrestricted in the commonwealth contries. and everyone have the right to the enjoyment of personal property.

and without going too far down the rabit hole, the statute defining what canada is, tells us that canada is the terrotorial waters with greater certainty blah blah....so there is no such geographical area known as canada

anyways, writting a claim of right cost nothing, and registering it cost 9$. make it truthfull so it cant be rebutted and make it self executing SO YOU DONT HAVE TO GO TO COURT. upon sevice you have prima facie evidence of haebus corpus...

 

[canucksafari]

i left IVOAC (as well as other key members) due to a dividing force within IVOAC. we will be going back to basics of the fight as IVOAC was originally intended to be. we will be working with the members in Quebec to fight this. we lose in Quebec and we might as well give up on having ANY freedoms in this country.

John, it isn't the incorporation of IVOAC that will win respect, it is actually taking action. we dropped the ball with the ICBC report, actually we didn't drop the ball - we buried it 6 ft under.

Wayne, the dividing forces are still there. They have names: ego and self-interest. That is pretty much why I have dropped out of IVOAC. IMO, without some sort of binding ground rules that incorporation gives, ego and self-interest will eventually always rule.

The study on the ICBC report has been done for a while now. Daryl headed that one up. It isn't everything we all wanted but it is good enough to make ICBC look sloppy and make the accusations of their own report highly questionable. "Our" study is quite usable in the Quebec case. Have you talked to Daryl about it?

Funny, I am also in contact with a friend in Quebec on this. Wonder if it is the same person?

 

[twinotter600]

Just to be clear I didn't know I had any friends..........

There are new provisions and I will actually be allowed to licence my 5-speed....

Vehicles purchased before April 29, 2009.

New provisions
The owners of vehicles purchased before April 29, 2009 which could not proceed with their registration because of ministerial orders 2009-05 and 2009-15 have until March 31, 2011 to do so. Each owner is responsible for providing proof that the vehicle was purchased before April 29, 2009. This provision also applies to light vehicles (known as "Kei").

 

[canucksafari]

Just to be clear I didn't know I had any friends..........

Anyone who keeps a 5L keg of Heineken in his shop fridge is always a friend.

 

[twinotter600]

Fair enough.

Not dear friends but beer friends!

 

[crushers]

i agree with your post...
i hope i don't fit those labels, my only interest when i started IVOAC was to fight the government. i couldn't have accomplished anything without the help of others and i will be the first to admit that.

we had a good battle going back then and then once the battle was over the people started bickering back and forth.

Daryl did finally get the report but has it gone anywhere since? he emailed me about the final conclusion which i felt did the job but anything further happening with it?

we need to get fighting this Quebec situation ASAP, we don't need a lot of people and we don't (in my opinion) need to be incorporated to do this. incorporation leads to rules and government interference, non-incorporation has freedom to act quickly when the need is there.

IF the majority says to incorporate then so be it but i would hope this would not be a dividing factor in the fight.

i hope to get back to basics...

Wayne, the dividing forces are still there. They have names: ego and self-interest. That is pretty much why I have dropped out of IVOAC. IMO, without some sort of binding ground rules that incorporation gives, ego and self-interest will eventually always rule.

The study on the ICBC report has been done for a while now. Daryl headed that one up. It isn't everything we all wanted but it is good enough to make ICBC look sloppy and make the accusations of their own report highly questionable. "Our" study is quite usable in the Quebec case. Have you talked to Daryl about it?

Funny, I am also in contact with a friend in Quebec on this. Wonder if it is the same person?

 

[canucksafari]

I wouldn't label you ego centric or self-serving - maybe a headstrong anti-gov redneck.

Yes, the fight was simple. We had a good core group back when you and Mike brought the 4Wheelers and Sports Car camps together. We were just 4wheelers here on MUD and Yahoo Groups and the Sports folks on GTR. That was only 3 years or so ago.

When this started, I remember post to the effect that, "they will only ban the sports cars" or "there wouldn't be an issue if they stopped the import of cars like the Skylines". Now, it is, "it will only happen in Quebec".

I guess we will have to disagree on the incorporation bit. I've worked with groups and in organizations for over 25 years now. Sooner or later every organization is faced with people trying to use it for their ego or self-interest. The only ones which survive it are those who have set rules in place to deal with it. Incorporation also provides members some degree of personal protection from law suits in addition to recognition that the group is a legal entity.

If there is to be a new group or organization sometime in the future, I'd like to see that it includes both private owners and businesses. If our focus is only defending the right to import, register and drive imported vehicles, then there shouldn't be any issue with business members. If someone has an issue with a business member, then they can take it up with the BBB. Also, one member should equal one vote - regardless of who you are. Just look at how the classic car and muscle car associations seem to work so well. They do a hell of a job defending the interests of their members.

Right now, we need to build political capital. Daryl did a heck of a job getting that report done and providing some political capital. The other part of political capital is membership. I don't think IVOAC has much of an active membership/forum user base now. IMO, the report Daryl commissioned on behalf of IVOAC is pretty much useless in the hands of IVOAC as it currently stands. I am not sure if it is best to try and rebuild IVOAC or something new. It would be easier to build something new in terms of dealing with personalities. However, the IVOAC brand is know to key game players.

Perhaps in the long term, we need to set-up a site where all these ideas could be discussed. In the short term, we need to reverse this ministerial decision. I am willing to help out as much as work and family life let me. That's about all I can promise.

i agree with your post...
i hope i don't fit those labels, my only interest when i started IVOAC was to fight the government. i couldn't have accomplished anything without the help of others and i will be the first to admit that.

we had a good battle going back then and then once the battle was over the people started bickering back and forth.

Daryl did finally get the report but has it gone anywhere since? he emailed me about the final conclusion which i felt did the job but anything further happening with it?

we need to get fighting this Quebec situation ASAP, we don't need a lot of people and we don't (in my opinion) need to be incorporated to do this. incorporation leads to rules and government interference, non-incorporation has freedom to act quickly when the need is there.

IF the majority says to incorporate then so be it but i would hope this would not be a dividing factor in the fight.

i hope to get back to basics...

 

[twinotter600]

Just got back from the lawyers on a different matter but I mentioned our struggle. She suggested we provide them with the history and put a student on it at $95/hr. We need to work with apviq.ca they may have their own lawyer....

 

[lshobie]

One of the big problems with quebec is that you don't need a license to sell cars - well that can be good or bad, but the problem is that there is no unity among sellers. You want to talk about looking after their own interests - there you have it.

A bunch of concerned citizens between the ages of 17 and 15, male, who want to drive really fast cars (for the most part) will have very little political clout - well actually no clout. Granted there are obviously older guys who like own delicas, cruisers, and some sports cars in quebec, but it is pretty minor compared to the sports cars - just take a drive in quebec and you will see what I mean. We pretty much all knew that this day would come and what would be the main causes for it.

Beating down transport canada was the easy part, beating the CCMTA - good luck, getting a bunch of guys with like interests together is not too bad as about 1-5 percent will actually do the job, but when the real people to lose money in quebec are curb siders and like someone said - have their own interests in mind then you will really need some good luck.

I am not saying it can't be done but a bunch of guys with a website and an agenda won't beat this monster, you need serious organization, political backing, and money - lots of it. A professional lobbyist would be the best option - but no one would want to pay that kind of money - and there will always be too many chiefs and not enough Indians - eh wayne?

Louis

 

[crushers]

curious,
are not businesses also private owners?

you know the reasons i didn't want commercialism on IVOAC, i didn't want companies using the site just to sell their stuff and never help out personally. i have yet to see a business to actually help without some form of payback.

" a headstrong anti-gov redneck" is pretty accurate. although the idea of a government that actually looks out for the people it governs is appealing but unless the people has huge $$$$$$, our government couldn't care less what the people actually want or need... so yes, at this time i am anti gov...

i think taking IVOAC back to its roots will work, ditch the forums that don't apply to the fight that way those that use the site will be there FOR the fight.

it would be great to have you around, you have always been an excellent help.
Daryl has the site now so if he decides to incorporate then it is his to do what he wants... i won't cause any problems. i would like to see a vote amongst the future freedom fighters though...

and, anyway, we can always blindside them away from IVOAC if the needs arrises.