power steering pump pressure

[Mace]

the fan is in series with power steering gear box outlet, meaning the outlet pipe from the power steering gear box goes in to inlet of the fan and the outlet of the fan returns back in to reservoir.

My pump is not a FJ 60 pump but rather 22R engine pump which is not much a different than 2F.

based on my observation, the fan speed is constant above 1000 rpm and turns low so it does changes once you increase the rpm above idle however, fan turn 4 time faster in idle meaning that the hydraulic pressure must be higher in idle than higher rpm

Dude, there are a bunch of variables in your system that were not even close to being covered in the first post. Before you get all grumpy, lay out the problems and the configuration of what is causing the issue. If you ask a question and actualy give the data needed to answer the question, you will find this place pretty easy going. Were some of the comments not the nicest? Nope.. The was no way to "understand" your setup to give you an answer with the info you have given. Even now troubleshooting is complex because you have a fairly oddball setup for a LC 60 section.

Is the hydraulic fan designed to run low PSI? Routing it after the Steering box (in series) gives you a significantly lower psi rating than directly off of the powersteering pump.

Stock pump values mean nothing after it has traveled through the steering box..

Hydraulic winchs, Brake boosters, etc, are designed to run at full pump PSI. So you would route the system in parallel to the steering box, not series. If your pums is designed to run low psi, there may be other problems still.

 

[ntsqd]

Dude

I do not have attitude but people need to read the questions first and give their opinion and inputs after they truly understand the question and not to take assumption that sum wakoo is out of his mind and does not WTF he is talking about.

It was never my intent to insult you. Perhaps you need a thicker skin? You certainly could do a lot better at explaining what it is you're looking for and why.

Your first post's question was quite clear, but why you were asking was not and why you were asking was important to the context of the answers. Your second post did nothing to help clarify the situation, and actually made it worse. Are we also supposed to assume that you have power rack and pinion steering? That's what your second post infers.

cause my radiator fan of the FJ60 runs with output oil out of power steering rack before it goes in to reservoir so at idel ,my fan run faster but when engine RPM increases, fan speed decreases.

So I am guessing, there must be a check valve inside the PS pump that reduces pressure as engine RPM increases.

Without a picture or a better initial description how the f%$k are we supposed to know that you have an extremely rare and unusual fan drive arrangement? Then you jump all over me for making an assumption based on your poor description. Are you here to instigate or get an answer to your question(s)? As far as I'm concerned your attitude and lack of detailed information has created all of this drama, and it was not necessary. Were there an "Ignore User" option here you have earned the first one I've felt the need for on this forum. It was your post that started all of this, you shoulder most of the blame.

There is a bit of un-posted info pertinent to your situation, but I feel no obligation to try to help any further.

EDIT: Ignore User added, thanks Mace.

 

[Mace]

Ignore feature is located in your user CP under Settings & options



Here is a stock Jeep diagram.

Notice the hose routing (parallel)



1 - POWER STEERING RESERVOIR
2 - POWER STEERING PUMP
3 - HYDRAULIC FAN DRIVE ASSEMBLY
4 - FAN BLADE
5 - HYDRAULIC FAN CONTROL SOLENOID
6 - POWER STEERING OIL COOLER
7 - STEERING GEAR

 

[Mace]

I am curious to see how this turned out

 

[vipergrhd]

FSM

Mace where did you get that diagram?just curious coz i don't think i've seen something like that in a jeep fsm.Chrysler Jeep Dodge service manual are a bit lacking when it comes to diagrams and pics.

John

 

[GM60]

btw, over about 35 mph, the fan is useless..

hmmm
Certainly not true with diesel 60 series vehicles used in countries with fairly high ambient temperatures.
It is a theory which has been around a long time, but it is one which is not that hard to disprove in practice.
I know dudes who have battled cruising speed overheating problems for years because they believed this myth and kept playing with radiators, water pumps, and thermostats, and refused to believe that the fan could have anything to do with the problem because they thought they were driving fast enough that the fan didn't matter.

Maybe in real cold countries the theory may have some cred, I don't know, but in high ambient temp areas it just ain't so, not from my experience anyway.

 

[Mace]

hmmm
Certainly not true with diesel 60 series vehicles used in countries with fairly high ambient temperatures.
It is a theory which has been around a long time, but it is one which is not that hard to disprove in practice.
I know dudes who have battled cruising speed overheating problems for years because they believed this myth and kept playing with radiators, water pumps, and thermostats, and refused to believe that the fan could have anything to do with the problem because they thought they were driving fast enough that the fan didn't matter.

Maybe in real cold countries the theory may have some cred, I don't know, but in high ambient temp areas it just ain't so, not from my experience anyway.

I said the fan is useless, not that it has no impact.
It is easily possible to actually reduce flow through the radiator at speed by selecting the wrong fan.

Do me a favor, get a wind meter and see what the velocity of the air is coming through the radiator. I bet it is somewhere in the 30 mph range.

The ambient temp is independent of the fan style. It does not matter if the air is being drawn through the radiator or blown through it. the air temp is the air temp.

Now, if you have too much crap in front of the radiator, it makes it a lot harder to cool the radiator.


BTW, I can't remember when I found the pic. It was part of a .pdf from a hydraulic fan search.

I'll see if I can find it again

 

[ntsqd]

I can see where above some given ground speed that the fan is basically freewheeling (or worse). Ducting it (shroud) will slightly raise the ground speed where it transitions to freewheeling because it will locally increase the air speed at the fan.

If an air speed test through the radiator is going to be done it needs to be done at several to many different engine speeds since ground speed vs. engine speed isn't fixed. Then you would know what the worst and best possible combos are.

 

[GM60]

The ambient temp is independent of the fan style. It does not matter if the air is being drawn through the radiator or blown through it. the air temp is the air temp.

Air temp and air flow both influence how well a cooling system can operate.
Fans do not really "draw" air through the radiator.
When operating correctly they create a negative pressure at the rear of the radiator cores, making it easier for pressured air acting on the front of the radiator to pass through.
This negative pressure is also usefull at highway speeds as far as getting air to flow eficiently through the radiator cores from front to back.

A diesel 60, with a cooling system in good condition, will bring the viscous fan into operation regularly at highway speeds during summer temps.
It will cut in as the temp sneeks up and run for a couple of minutes, then it will cut back out as the temp comes back down.
The temp will gradually rise again and the process will repeat over and over.
You can hear when the fan cuts in and also when it drops out again. You can also easily see the engine temp coming down as shown by the gauge.

The bottom line to all this, is that to say a fan is useless at speeds over 35 or whatever, is not the case with most vehicles.
Never underestimate the importance of a correctly operating fan when talking about a vehicles ability to keep enging temperature where it should be, including at cruising speeds.

 

[Mace]

I never even implied that air temp does not factor in how well a coolant system works. I said that the air temp is independent of the fan style. Meaning that there is not a damn thing you can do about the air temp. It is what it is. It does not matter if it is being blown through the radiator, or if a negative pressure is created on the back side of the radiator and allows the external pressure to do it's thing..

So by creating a negative pressure on one side of the radiator you are not "drawing" the air through the radiator right? Not like drawing a breath or drawing liquid through a straw??

Are you honestly telling me that at 60 mph a engine driven fan can create more "Vacuum" behind the radiator than the wind blowing through the radiator?

Actually I can see one angle to this. When the fan is in freewheel mode it may actually be forming a back pressure behind the radiator and reducing the "ram air" effect that driving at speed creates.

I would be willing to bet that if you took the fan off of those 60's at speed you would not notice a temp difference..

BTW, I assume that you are not using a stock temp gauge for these tests..

 

[GM60]

Are you honestly telling me that at 60 mph a engine driven fan can create more "Vacuum" behind the radiator than the wind blowing through the radiator?



I would be willing to bet that if you took the fan off of those 60's at speed you would not notice a temp difference..

You seem to be assuming that when cruising at 60mph there is almost the same airspeed going THROUGH the radiator.
If the Rad was situated in totally unrestricted airflow out in front of the vehicle, I agree that you would most likely get a good enough airflow going through the cores to mean the fan was doing little to help it.

Our 60's dont have the rad in unrestricted airflow though.
Take my HJ61 as an example.
That 60 mph air has to first get through the grille.
The grille bars and Toyota emblem blank off a large area of the total grill which can allow air through, maybe as much as 30-40 percent.
Then the air that gets past the grill doesnt all have to force its way through the rad, as there are other places it can escape.

The air that does want to go through now hits another huge obstacle, the air-con condenser.
My 61 is fitted with factory air, and that condenser covers the entire frontal area of the radiator.

(Now, if the air-con happens to be running at the time, the condenser is also heating the airflow that makes it to the radiator as well.)

My point being, that with no fan at 60 mph there is a very high chance that the air actually being pushed through the rad is nowhere near 60mph.
However, with a big shrouded fan like those fitted to our 60's, creating negative pressure at the rear face of the cores, the air will have a much improved flow through the cores.

And yeah, I have tried driving at 60mph with the fan removed and yeah, I do know for sure whether the fan makes a difference at high speeds.
I do have a little bit of time in Tojos, almost constant from '79 till now, and mainly driven in hot hard Aussie conditions out west and up north.
During that time I've had a lot of chances to learn about what keeps 'em cool and what can make 'em run too hot.

 

[FJn00b]

I said the fan is useless, not that it has no impact.
It is easily possible to actually reduce flow through the radiator at speed by selecting the wrong fan.

Do me a favor, get a wind meter and see what the velocity of the air is coming through the radiator. I bet it is somewhere in the 30 mph range.

The ambient temp is independent of the fan style. It does not matter if the air is being drawn through the radiator or blown through it. the air temp is the air temp.

Now, if you have too much **** in front of the radiator, it makes it a lot harder to cool the radiator.


BTW, I can't remember when I found the pic. It was part of a .pdf from a hydraulic fan search.

I'll see if I can find it again

You had your drawing little backward but I understand what you trying to say but no, the fan function works great at idle with super cooling effect and i like the idea of using the oil to run the fan instead of electrical fan or mechanical one.

The lexus system is little different. the high pressure divides in two part. one directly runs to PS gear box and one with an electric check valve run the fan. when temp reaches the proper rating, the fan switch kicks in and allows high pressure to rurn the fan.

I am trying not to add another electric valve and flow divider ....etc and i know for sure that this fan runs @ 1/3 speed at higher engine RPM than at lower. if the oil pressure is at 1000 psi all the time then I think, there must be something inside the gear box that reduces the flow at higher RPM. I may run the pump directly with PS pump just see what is happening this weekend and I will let you know how that turns up.

 

[FJn00b]

It was never my intent to insult you. Perhaps you need a thicker skin? You certainly could do a lot better at explaining what it is you're looking for and why.

Your first post's question was quite clear, but why you were asking was not and why you were asking was important to the context of the answers. Your second post did nothing to help clarify the situation, and actually made it worse. Are we also supposed to assume that you have power rack and pinion steering? That's what your second post infers.


Without a picture or a better initial description how the f%$k are we supposed to know that you have an extremely rare and unusual fan drive arrangement? Then you jump all over me for making an assumption based on your poor description. Are you here to instigate or get an answer to your question(s)? As far as I'm concerned your attitude and lack of detailed information has created all of this drama, and it was not necessary. Were there an "Ignore User" option here you have earned the first one I've felt the need for on this forum. It was your post that started all of this, you shoulder most of the blame.

There is a bit of un-posted info pertinent to your situation, but I feel no obligation to try to help any further.

EDIT: Ignore User added, thanks Mace.

it was only you dude so take it easy and stop crying like a girl.

there is a lot to learn here

 

[FJn00b]

Hello fj, I'm not here trying to fuel any sparks but if you go back to your post (#3) i think this is were you throw that curve ball and confused most of us.i have to read the post twice and still didn't sink in right away not knowing the set-up you got since this is a rare set-up for most of us i think it would be best (next time)to accompany your post w/pics and describe the system you got rather than just asking the question.

FWIW i kinda dig your set-up being a diesel and all.is that a lexus system or camry cooling fan?
maybe you can join us on some get together in the city sometime.
John

sure

email me, may be we go for lunch or something.

I am in the south bay

Regards

 

[vipergrhd]

hijack

sure

email me, may be we go for lunch or something.

I am in the south bay

Regards

FJnoob, Check the alaska thread about having a meet and greet next weekend(april 5)i think,it would be the perfect time to meet some ppl from the bay area.I think there is a plan to make a quick run to hollister and dinner afterwards,hope you could come.hijack over and out.

John

 

[FJn00b]

I am headed to LA on that weekend so we got to do some other time.

 

[vipergrhd]

some other time

I'm sure that there will be another time since spring just started.see you then.

 

[Mace]

You had your drawing little backward but I understand what you trying to say but no, the fan function works great at idle with super cooling effect and i like the idea of using the oil to run the fan instead of electrical fan or mechanical one.

The lexus system is little different. the high pressure divides in two part. one directly runs to PS gear box and one with an electric check valve run the fan. when temp reaches the proper rating, the fan switch kicks in and allows high pressure to rurn the fan.

I am trying not to add another electric valve and flow divider ....etc and i know for sure that this fan runs @ 1/3 speed at higher engine RPM than at lower. if the oil pressure is at 1000 psi all the time then I think, there must be something inside the gear box that reduces the flow at higher RPM. I may run the pump directly with PS pump just see what is happening this weekend and I will let you know how that turns up.

I had my drawing backwards?? You must be kidding me.. I already mentioned that it was not mine. It is a FSM for a Jeep..

You mentioned that it is run is serial right after the PS box, now you are saying that it is in parallel with the box. Which is it?

Who said the PSI was at 1000 at all times???

jeabus dude..

 

[Mace]

it was only you dude so take it easy and stop crying like a girl.

there is a lot to learn here

Then stop insulting people and learn..


I am not gonna tell you again.

 

[FJn00b]

I had my drawing backwards?? You must be kidding me.. I already mentioned that it was not mine. It is a FSM for a Jeep..

You mentioned that it is run is serial right after the PS box, now you are saying that it is in parallel with the box. Which is it?

Who said the PSI was at 1000 at all times???

jeabus dude..

as I mentioned, my fan uses the fluid pressure after the fluid leaves the gear box so it is in series with the follow and not "T"ed directly from the pump. I installed a gauge at the fan input (which is the same as gear box output) and pressure is about 200 PSI at idle and it pressure ranges from 25 PSI to 200 psi during low to high RPM changes . at 2500 RPM, the pressure goes back and fort between 200 and 25 every second or so like a pulse.

I am guessing that this pressure changes is caused by a spring loaded check valve at the pump so I am planning to remove the check valve and play with the spring to see what happens.