Mall cruiser - 80k?
Rock crawling - 50k
What is your opinion?
Rock crawling - 50k
What is your opinion?
Personal opinion on WS fluid replacement interval
- Thread starter SWUtah
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Mixed use ( commuting, rock crawling )- 85-100K. Towing heavy consistently - 60k
bwell
SILVER Star
I just did my 2008 lx570 with 69k miles and it was black! I used 13 quarts of AMS oil WS replacement, runs smoother than ever. In the future I plan to keep the changes to 30 to 45k, just like my 2000 100 series. I have performed and exchange twice on it in 60k miles. Worth the money and peace of mind, IMO.
Hmmm. Where are you sourcing your fluid? Dealer only?
This.
I’ve done it now twice on my 4Runner with 185k and will be doing it in the LX this summer at around 90k. It’s so easy.
Online Toyota dealers and amazon both have it.
bwell
SILVER Star
This is a great video. I ordered 12 qts of Toyota WS from Amazon.
Order 2-4 more. I use 14ish every time to ensure it’s all flushed out.
Good tip - thanks!
The maintenance manual says:
Rock crawling/towing: inspect every 30k, replace every 60k
Mall Cruiser: inspect every 30k. No replacement specified in the first 120k miles.
The Toyota "replace" procedure is simply to drain and fill the 3 quarts in the pan, which only swaps 25% of the fluid. For occasional rock crawling I would replace all 12 quarts of fluid every 60k miles. If you're crawling around in 4Lo 50% of your mileage then maybe more often. For true mall cruising, where you never heat the transmission up more than the ~195F operating temp I suspect you can easily go 120k miles or more.
FWIW I did my first fluid swap at 60k. I'll be at 90k this spring and will do the diffs, but I'm debating whether to do the transmission again or just wait for the 120k mark. Likely I will have the shop check the fluid and do a full swap if it's no longer pink/red, otherwise I'll keep running it. About 50% of my mileage is towing a 6k # trailer, and 30-40% is pure city driving, but only 2-3% of the mileage is offroad trails.
Rock crawling/towing: inspect every 30k, replace every 60k
Mall Cruiser: inspect every 30k. No replacement specified in the first 120k miles.
The Toyota "replace" procedure is simply to drain and fill the 3 quarts in the pan, which only swaps 25% of the fluid. For occasional rock crawling I would replace all 12 quarts of fluid every 60k miles. If you're crawling around in 4Lo 50% of your mileage then maybe more often. For true mall cruising, where you never heat the transmission up more than the ~195F operating temp I suspect you can easily go 120k miles or more.
FWIW I did my first fluid swap at 60k. I'll be at 90k this spring and will do the diffs, but I'm debating whether to do the transmission again or just wait for the 120k mark. Likely I will have the shop check the fluid and do a full swap if it's no longer pink/red, otherwise I'll keep running it. About 50% of my mileage is towing a 6k # trailer, and 30-40% is pure city driving, but only 2-3% of the mileage is offroad trails.
Taco2Cruiser
Crazy American Off Road
Years ago, when WS just came out. On the bottle it said that under severe service that WS lasts 60,000 miles.
It has since been removed from the bottle, but VOA of the stuff from then to a couple years ago when I did it again showed it to be the same from what an analysis can tell. (There are deep things that we will never know that can be found in an analysis)
So for me, 60k intervals regardless of use. Fluid is cheap, drivetrains are not.
For more fun, I’ve done UOA on five WS trannys. Three A750Fs and two AB60s, for 13 total UOAs. The first 60k miles on each was the worse, because of the break in process. After that, these transmissions (just like Toyota engines) are pretty gentle on the fluid. So I know that at 120k, 180k, ect, it’s overkill. But I always figured if I can afford a car, I should also be able to afford it’s mainenance.
It has since been removed from the bottle, but VOA of the stuff from then to a couple years ago when I did it again showed it to be the same from what an analysis can tell. (There are deep things that we will never know that can be found in an analysis)
So for me, 60k intervals regardless of use. Fluid is cheap, drivetrains are not.
For more fun, I’ve done UOA on five WS trannys. Three A750Fs and two AB60s, for 13 total UOAs. The first 60k miles on each was the worse, because of the break in process. After that, these transmissions (just like Toyota engines) are pretty gentle on the fluid. So I know that at 120k, 180k, ect, it’s overkill. But I always figured if I can afford a car, I should also be able to afford it’s mainenance.
I've had similar experiences to you. First time I did the exchange was on a 4th gen 4Runner. Changed at 80k miles. Fluid was black, much darker than that in the above DIY video. The rig had done some light towing, but nothing crazy.
Changed my 2011 LC at 70k miles at a dealership (only charged me $180 for the full fluid transfer after a coupon for a 12 quart exchange). I asked them to save some old fluid in a tube for Blackstone, but I never submitted it. At 70k miles it was also very dark in color.
My 2012 4Runner is at 67k miles, so it is due. I'll update when I get around to doing the exchange.
My understanding is that Toyota has to certify the WS to last at least 100k miles to avoid paying certain EPA related fees (don't know this for sure, but seen this statement many times on different sites). So clearly Toyota has a motivation to list a 100k interval.
Only advice I would add is when you are draining the pan, make sure the fill port will open first. Don't want to be in a situation where you can't refill what you drained out.
So a couple terms here. I see a fluid exchange, fluid replacement, fluid flush, etc. I know the difference between them, but what is the actual procedure to request at the dealer?
The old saying was at some point you have to just leave the fluid alone. New fluid might break up deposits that had been effectively holding the transmission together and you'd start to see slipping. This always sounded like a flush, but would you run into this with just a replacement? What is the consensus at which point you should just leave everything alone? 100k? 200k?
The "flush" sounds like it would be under pressure, are the fluid swaps/replacement just simply drain and fill until you see new fluid?
Are you guys getting pushback from the dealers about doing this? I've heard "oh it's a 'lifetime' fluid." Is there anything special about doing it that you'd want to make the dealer aware of, operating temps, special tools?
Finally, any difference with the 8-speed? I'm at 28k so not really needing it now, but always like to know.
The old saying was at some point you have to just leave the fluid alone. New fluid might break up deposits that had been effectively holding the transmission together and you'd start to see slipping. This always sounded like a flush, but would you run into this with just a replacement? What is the consensus at which point you should just leave everything alone? 100k? 200k?
The "flush" sounds like it would be under pressure, are the fluid swaps/replacement just simply drain and fill until you see new fluid?
Are you guys getting pushback from the dealers about doing this? I've heard "oh it's a 'lifetime' fluid." Is there anything special about doing it that you'd want to make the dealer aware of, operating temps, special tools?
Finally, any difference with the 8-speed? I'm at 28k so not really needing it now, but always like to know.
I don't think it's breaking up deposits, but rather just a function of how slippery the fluid is.
If I was doing the first maintenance 200k miles I'd either stick to the 3 quart pan drain and fill (which is what Toyota recommends) or else forgo it altogether. New fluids will be slippery compared to old fluids, so doing a full exchange with fluid that is super slippery can result in transmission slippage where there once was none. The partial exchange would add some lubrication without making the fluid so slick that the TC and bands slip.
If you're doing swaps <100k, I would do the whole 12 quarts. Why change out 1/4 of the fluid and then have it mixed with 3/4 dirty fluid? Maybe it's to avoid (delay) the above issue when the transmission is at 240k, but it just doesn't make sense to me. Automotive fluid changes shouldn't be like an aquarium (unless you've got fish swimming around in your transmission). I would NOT do a power flush as you don't want external equipment forcing fluids past valves under pressure. There is a procedure online however where you basically disconnect the transmission cooler line into the radiator and run one end into an empty jug and stick the other into a new lug of fluid, stick a paperclip into the temp solenoid (thermostat) to open it up, and then start the vehicle and cycle through the gears and shut it off a few times until you've exchanged 12 quarts and the fluid coming out is now pink.
Side note: Anyone know the transmission assembly procedure? I've always suspected the very dark fluids on the first change are probably in part due to additives or lubricants (grease) that are applied to brand new parts when assembled, so that the first startup isn't totally "dry". I've also always suspected that those lubes are OK for your transmission (or transfer case or whatever) so just because it's dark doesn't necessarily mean it's bad or would shorten the life (i.e. the transmission might run 300k no matter whether you never swapped the fluid or you swapped it only once when the vehicle had 500 miles on it).
If I was doing the first maintenance 200k miles I'd either stick to the 3 quart pan drain and fill (which is what Toyota recommends) or else forgo it altogether. New fluids will be slippery compared to old fluids, so doing a full exchange with fluid that is super slippery can result in transmission slippage where there once was none. The partial exchange would add some lubrication without making the fluid so slick that the TC and bands slip.
If you're doing swaps <100k, I would do the whole 12 quarts. Why change out 1/4 of the fluid and then have it mixed with 3/4 dirty fluid? Maybe it's to avoid (delay) the above issue when the transmission is at 240k, but it just doesn't make sense to me. Automotive fluid changes shouldn't be like an aquarium (unless you've got fish swimming around in your transmission). I would NOT do a power flush as you don't want external equipment forcing fluids past valves under pressure. There is a procedure online however where you basically disconnect the transmission cooler line into the radiator and run one end into an empty jug and stick the other into a new lug of fluid, stick a paperclip into the temp solenoid (thermostat) to open it up, and then start the vehicle and cycle through the gears and shut it off a few times until you've exchanged 12 quarts and the fluid coming out is now pink.
Side note: Anyone know the transmission assembly procedure? I've always suspected the very dark fluids on the first change are probably in part due to additives or lubricants (grease) that are applied to brand new parts when assembled, so that the first startup isn't totally "dry". I've also always suspected that those lubes are OK for your transmission (or transfer case or whatever) so just because it's dark doesn't necessarily mean it's bad or would shorten the life (i.e. the transmission might run 300k no matter whether you never swapped the fluid or you swapped it only once when the vehicle had 500 miles on it).
Taco2Cruiser
Crazy American Off Road
@linuxgod These auto trannys do have a multipurpose grease on the bearings for an assembly lube. Yet that wouldn’t account for the amount of metals that UOAs have shown me. Color itself doesn’t mean much though, but that could be some of the MP grease. Oh, but every o-ring in there just gets lubed with WS. The same way you lube the engine oil filter o rings with motor oil before reinstalling.
@mooneywa I would, however, regardless of age, change a drivetrain component’s fluid. The idea that it will fail once changed is just not accurate. I’ve changed WS trannys from some of my guys that had over 150k on them when I would mention it in conversation. To help, I’d show them. They all worked better afterword.
And to the above comment of flush, exchange... flushes use chemical cleaning, exchanges do not. Anything but WS is bad, that’s why they are not called flushes anymore. Just simple exchanging old WS for new WS. Nothing more.
I don’t mean to come off as “matter of fact” on this. I did receive a bit of formalized training on world service transmissions some time ago, so that’s where my basis is coming from. Text seems to make me come off harsh, please don’t take it that way.
@mooneywa I would, however, regardless of age, change a drivetrain component’s fluid. The idea that it will fail once changed is just not accurate. I’ve changed WS trannys from some of my guys that had over 150k on them when I would mention it in conversation. To help, I’d show them. They all worked better afterword.
And to the above comment of flush, exchange... flushes use chemical cleaning, exchanges do not. Anything but WS is bad, that’s why they are not called flushes anymore. Just simple exchanging old WS for new WS. Nothing more.
I don’t mean to come off as “matter of fact” on this. I did receive a bit of formalized training on world service transmissions some time ago, so that’s where my basis is coming from. Text seems to make me come off harsh, please don’t take it that way.
bloc
SILVER Star
Are we sure putting The second cooler line into a container of clean fluid will actually draw it into the transmission? I was under the impression it had to be pumped/fed into the case via the fill port one pan volume at a time.
No I'm not 100% sure of the procedure actually as I've not personally done it, but @NLScooby has:
Complete Transmission Flush DIY - VIDEO
No, that won't work. It has to be fed through the fill case. That is why it helps to have a spotter so you only drain a couple quarts at a time. Then fill two quarts and repeat until you have bright red fluid. As I recall, it only takes about 10 seconds to drain a couple quarts. Using a long hose to the fill case makes it a simple process. I add a small amount extra from what I drain, get to temp and pull the overflow. Pretty easy.
