Old stage road closed? Why (1 Viewer)

[karas]

I ran into one of the property owners from there today on his euro bike and asked him why it's closed and how bad it was. He said those sob's shut that road down for no good reason. He calls weekly and xxxxxxx's them out and said we need to start doing the same and rally some people to keep on there but's. He has taken that road all the way to the springs countless times and said they have done no work on it since they closed it. He just drives his motorcycle around the gate. He said a car won't fit around but if there was no gate a car could make it all the way. It is nice to have one of the land owners on our side speaking out against stuff like this. Not sure who this guy was but that's some troubling info if it's all true. I just need to call around and find out who actually closed the road and why.

 

[MrMoose]

I thought Old Stage was closed because it washed out last year during the heavy flooding?

http://adm.elpasoco.com/publicservices/transportation/pages/RoadProjectDetail.aspx?ProjectId=86

That site use to say it had a completion date of 1 May, but now it says nothing. Hmmm...

They really need to open it up. I'm guessing Saran Wrap and Eagle Rock may be different beasts with wash out from those same floods.

 

[Stokes]

I agree it doesn't make sense. Lower Gold Camp was severely washed also and it is already fixed and open. That road has no practical use other than for recreation.

 

[black95]

The forest service fixed lower gold camp. They talked about us here at Parks and Rec were going to have to fix it, which would have taken much longer. Hi drive is closed forever. Why? Trout Fisherman. Same people that are closing Frosty Park and surrounding area. I wonder if Old Stage is caught up in all that land swapping the Forest Service did with the Broadmoor. The Broadmoor may own that now. They bought Seven Falls too.

 

[black95]

With all the gates that are going up lately, it going to be just like back down south with no public land. That's OK with me, I've already been through this, and I still have the keys every one of those gates...

 

[Stokes]

Luke I wish it was possible to like that post more than once!

 

[karas]

Well if everyone could start calling in that would be awesome.

 

[Fitzgerald]

... I sort like the front entrance to all this closed off. When we went and did Saran Wrap Reynolds Warp/Eagle rock a few months ago, we were the only ones out there. And it'll probably stay a lot clearer now too. Ok...bring the rage.

 

[Fitzgerald]

Now, closing down Frosty Park, etc...

 

[CO_Hunter]

...Hi drive is closed forever. Why? Trout Fisherman...

I resemble that comment, the trout fisherman that is. I think you are confusing two different issues. The trail closures in the Bear Creek watershed and Frosty Park were due to a lawsuit settlement between the Forest Service and the Center for Biological Diversity (not Trout fisherman), read this:

http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/psicc/news-events/?cid=STELPRDB5402269
http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/species/fish/pdfs/Bear_Creek_PR.pdf


The other road/trial closures were due to flooding last fall:

http://outtherecolorado.com/many-tr...es-floods/article/1508923#vVAEYcR3hF3WIEex.99

Are you sure you have your Frosty Park intel correct as far as more closures?

If we want to get more active in trail advocacy we need to get with other groups as we have discussed over the last 1-2 years. We would have to go after the easier to get wins and not challenging a settled lawsuit over the Endangered Species Act. That group has very deep pockets.

 

[karas]

I am with you somewhat Leon. I think getting to know the other clubs will help keep us and everyone else in the loop. I think we all need to start banding together in a closer tight knit group to keep these trails open. They are going to shut down all these roads and try and make us all drive lowered eclipses. Which I don't mind one bit except the closing of trails and me not able to use the fj.

 

[black95]

Straight from the lawsuit paperwork:

"Petitioners include nonprofit groups committed to effective, sustainable and equitable management of trail-based recreation opportunity, as well as fishermen and conservationists committed to active and effective management of Colorado's waters and supported fisheries and aquatic populations. Petitioners, including through their members, reside in the vicinity of Bear Creek, have recreated within the watershed including on all of its Forest Service trails, and have concrete plans to continue such activities to the extent authorized by the Forest Service.
Bear Creek, at least according to the Forest Service, contains "the sole known remaining population of genetically pure greenback cutthroat trout" (Oncorhynchus clarkia stomias). Draft Bear Creek Watershed Assessment, USFS (March, 2013) ("BCWA") at 1 (viewed April 19, 2013 at https://fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5412309.pdf). The greenback cutthroat trout ("GBCT") is Colorado's state fish and is listed as threatened under the ESA. Id. The Forest Service has taken agency action, most notably through Forest Order 12-21 (December 6, 2012) (attached hereto as Exhibit "A") which has resulted in adverse impacts to GBCT or increased the risk of adverse impacts to GBCT. The Forest Service has exercised its ongoing discretion in a manner that has resulted in adverse impacts to GBCT or increased the risk of adverse impacts to GBCT. This Notice describes on behalf of the Petitioners the alleged violations of the ESA represented by the above-described conduct of the Forest Service."

Sounds like trout fishermen to me If I'm being totally honest, I don't give a hoot about the Greenback Cutthroat Trout. Sorry. Just another Preble's Jumping mouse "red herring" if you ask me.

 

[Bret]

Seems like something that starts with roots of common sense get twisted in the legal system to complete absurdity. They'll lock everything up, keep everyone out in the guise of saving the world then auction the land off for logging etc... isn't there something called sensible use and responsible stewardship? Crap gets old. Like destroying logging roads because animals are afraid to cross them, or we'll fix the ecosystem to boost the salmon with these shrimp... now you can't fish for Bull trout or salmon.

 

[CO_Hunter]

Straight from the lawsuit paperwork:

"Petitioners include nonprofit groups committed to effective, sustainable and equitable management of trail-based recreation opportunity, as well as fishermen and conservationists committed to active and effective management of Colorado's waters and supported fisheries and aquatic populations. Petitioners, including through their members, reside in the vicinity of Bear Creek, have recreated within the watershed including on all of its Forest Service trails, and have concrete plans to continue such activities to the extent authorized by the Forest Service.
Bear Creek, at least according to the Forest Service, contains "the sole known remaining population of genetically pure greenback cutthroat trout" (Oncorhynchus clarkia stomias). Draft Bear Creek Watershed Assessment, USFS (March, 2013) ("BCWA") at 1 (viewed April 19, 2013 at https://fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5412309.pdf). The greenback cutthroat trout ("GBCT") is Colorado's state fish and is listed as threatened under the ESA. Id. The Forest Service has taken agency action, most notably through Forest Order 12-21 (December 6, 2012) (attached hereto as Exhibit "A") which has resulted in adverse impacts to GBCT or increased the risk of adverse impacts to GBCT. The Forest Service has exercised its ongoing discretion in a manner that has resulted in adverse impacts to GBCT or increased the risk of adverse impacts to GBCT. This Notice describes on behalf of the Petitioners the alleged violations of the ESA represented by the above-described conduct of the Forest Service."

Sounds like trout fishermen to me If I'm being totally honest, I don't give a hoot about the Greenback Cutthroat Trout. Sorry. Just another Preble's Jumping mouse "red herring" if you ask me.

I think you missed the whole story, there are two lawsuits. If you had actually posted a link it would have been easier for me. http://coloradotpa.org/news/news/formal-notice-of-intent-to-sue-bear-creek-watershed.html

That group that you referenced in your excerpt, Trail Preservation Alliance (TPA) http://www.coloradotpa.org/ is a mainly an off road motorcycle advocacy group. When there was a proposal to ban only non-motorized use they said it was a non-starter. What you posted was an excerpt from letter of intent to sue over the Forest Service decision to settle with the Center for Biological Diversity (CBD). If you continued to read down that letter it is there, see below. The TPA and others were saying that if you close to one use you then better close it to all uses. http://gazette.com/several-popular-...risk-of-being-closed-rerouted/article/1516758 Basically they were trying to force the Forest Service to tick off everyone. A lot of folks were mad that the Forest Service was caving into an out of state organization while there were legitimate grass roots efforts amongst many users to try to fix the situation. The roads were closed by the lawsuit I referenced prior to the letter of intent being send by the TPA, which you referenced.

While there may have been "fisherman" support of the CBD lawsuit (on the CBD website they reference a former Colorado Springs "trout enthusiast"), my main objection to your first post was the implication (intentional or not) that made it sound like all fisherman were in support of that, which I do not think is the case.

language from farther down the letter from which your excerpt was taken:

"The Petitioners do not believe that immediate closure of the Restricted Trails through Forest Order 12-21 or otherwise was warranted. Nor do the Petitioners support the Forest Service's decision to settle the Center's lawsuit. The Petitioners do not believe that the Center could have prevailed on its asserted claims. Nothing in this Notice should be read or may be construed as support for any of the agency decisions, implicit findings, or underlying positions of the Center. Regardless of the legitimacy of those claims or the Forest Service's decision to settle, the rationale adopted by the agency in taking those discretionary actions cannot be reconciled with Forest Order 12-21 and its ongoing management of the Bear Creek Watershed and associated trail system. Specifically, it is the presence of the trail system that is primarily responsible for sediment delivery to the watershed. No one has ever established, nor do we think they could establish, that travel by motorcycles is a singular, or even unique, causative factor in the sedimentation or habitat analysis for the GBCT population in Bear Creek. The agency's actions in response to the Center's lawsuit through Forest Order 12-21 and otherwise have thus not improved the situation in any meaningful way for the GBCT. In fact, the actions taken have failed to address fundamental habitat issues but have changed secondary factors for the worse. If the GBCT faced threats, these post-settlement developments, particularly when combined with developing environmental conditions, make the plight of the GBCT far more dire than it was prior to the Center ever filing notice."

Two different things going on here.

 

[black95]

Ah, thank you. I consider myself more closely educated to this subject. Good info. They also like to blame "trout fishermen" in our parks meetings, I may have to correct them.

I stumbled upon this stuff the other day while reading grumblings on a moto forum about the "tank proof" gate we just put up at the rampart range road GoG entrance. Lol. They weren't happy about that one. Didn't read the law suit far enough.

 

[karas]

Was reading some jeep forums and one guy got the code for the gates and drove through and said there is no reason it needed to be closed. There seems to be a lot of confusing as to why and who is closing the road.
Seems like everyone has a different story. I was going to drive down to the gates yesterday and walk in and take some pics but time did not permit this. I would really like to see it for myself. A few people said it won't even open this year and I heard in a month. I guess we will al turn into Or And forget about our trails. I wish Was here. I need to start Again.

 

[Fitzgerald]

Be careful of the questions you ask Matt...very, very careful...

...

 

[karas]

It will take more then that to stop a cruiser.

 

[Pops]

Sounds like trout fishermen to me If I'm being totally honest, I don't give a hoot about the Greenback Cutthroat Trout. Sorry. Just another Preble's Jumping mouse "red herring" if you ask me.[/QUOTE]
Love the Trout Save the trout!!! I'm willing to give up a trail to save the species if that will truly help. Sounds like that is yet to be determined.

 

[Fitzgerald]