Oil Vs. Grease? (1 Viewer)

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best4x4xfar

best4x4xfar

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Oil Vs. Grease?

As often times happens, curiosity has gotten the better of me. So why does Toyota choose grease to lubricate the CV joints in the front axle knuckles instead of oil? There seems to be so many problems with the front axle seals failing, and the axle gear oil leaking into the knuckles and washing the grease from the CV bells. Just made me begin to wonder why the choice of grease over oil? Is a good EP Grease really a better lubricant for the CV joint, or was Toyota more concerned about the knuckle seals leaking oil and leaving the joint dry? Did Toyota ever use Oil, maybe in earlier Land Cruisers? (I’ve been educating myself about the 80 Series and 100 Series Cruisers, but honestly don’t know that much about the earlier models) And if so, why the switch to grease.

I know Land Rover used oil in there closed knuckle CVs for 40+ years, and issued a service bulletin to switch over to a “One Time” grease when trucks where brought in for service pertaining to leaky knuckle seals. Personally I think Rover did it to save labor costs for warrantee work, since it is an involved job to disassemble everything to replace the seal, not because of problems with the oil properly lubricating the CV joint.
 
best4x4xfar,

I did my Birfield repack 2 weeks ago and I had the exact same thought. I am glad that someone actually posted this on the board.

When I pulled my Birfield joint apart it was filled with a soupy mixture of gear oil and grease. As it oozed out I began wondering if it is really bad for the joint to be operating in this mixture? I don't think so. If the joint went dry, I can see where the birfield would wear out, but immersed in this oil/grease mixture, I imagine it is lubricated very well. Made me wonder if I could have run it in this liquid forever, or why Toyota didn't consider using gear oil in the joint to begin with.

I am very much looking forward to the (hopefully) ensuing discussion.
 
I agree having had Landrovers fo years, that oil is perfectly acceptable and probably offers better lubrication buti think that the reason grease is chosen because that it is cheeper to manufacture seals and other tolerances to accept grease rather than oil.
 
best4x4xfar said:
Oil Vs. Grease?

There seems to be so many problems with the front axle seals failing, and the axle gear oil leaking into the knuckles and washing the grease from the CV bells. .
Click to expand...

I don't believe that Toyota ever used oil, at least not from 1970 to present. I also don't believe there is "so many" problems with the grease seal design. I have a 20 year old Land Cruiser with all service records. The birfields seals have never been changed and there is no sign of leakage and no problems.

The full-time 4 wheel drive of the 80 series is a different story as that part of the vehicle is engaged at all times and causes more wear on the seals. I don't believe it is fare to compare the wear of a full-time 4wd seals to a part time 4wd seals. On a part time 4wd the front axle is engaged less than 10% of the total milage. The axle isn't spinning for 90% of the milage.

Even with the full-time 4wd of the 80s, most don't even see a problem until after 100,000 miles. To me 100,000+ miles out of seals in not a chronic problem.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking the oil bath I just don't think there is a problem with the current design.
 
I would think if the knuckles were in an oil bath so to speak you would have serious leak issues on the wipers.
 
Heffenoche said:
I don't believe that Toyota ever used oil, at least not from 1970 to present. I also don't believe there is "so many" problems with the grease seal design. I have a 20 year old Land Cruiser with all service records. The birfields seals have never been changed and there is no sign of leakage and no problems.

The full-time 4 wheel drive of the 80 series is a different story as that part of the vehicle is engaged at all times and causes more wear on the seals. I don't believe it is fare to compare the wear of a full-time 4wd seals to a part time 4wd seals. On a part time 4wd the front axle is engaged less than 10% of the total milage. The axle isn't spinning for 90% of the milage.

Even with the full-time 4wd of the 80s, most don't even see a problem until after 100,000 miles. To me 100,000+ miles out of seals in not a chronic problem.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking the oil bath I just don't think there is a problem with the current design.
Click to expand...

I am talking about a full time 4x4 set up with Landover’s and it is a fair comparison. I have owned a 101 Forward Control Landover since 1990, this vehicle being manufactured in 1975 it is full time 4x4. The vehicle was a military reserve vehicle and had done only 5000 km and was mainly in storage. I replaced most rubber seals breaks CV joints (birfields) etc soon after purchase and has lasted until this day on those seals. The seals are on one side only just beginning to weep; the vehicle has been subjected by me to all kinds of abuse off road including repeated wading half way up the doors, competitive trials and as an every day work horse.

I have also owned a 110 Defender TDI which I also owned for a couple or three years and subjected it to off road abuse with out needing to attend to the CV seals

The reliability of the seals in LR products gave me the confidence to deep wade and off road and yet only ever changed the axle and CV oil when a service was due I soon realised that inspections after deep wading were unnecessary.

I would go further and say that the CV (birfield) joint seals are far superior in Most Landover products to Toyota products, that does not go for every other part of the LR product. These joint seals hardly ever form part of a conversation. :)
 
I did the front axles on my 80 at 145k. I was told the seals were leaking alittle when I first bought it. When I drained the front diff there was a little (about half a cup) of dark grease looking stuff then gear oil. When I took apart the front they appeared alittle drier than I would have expected. In the past I have seen people discuss how the combination of the different grease/oil lubricants causes them both to prematurely breakdown. Similar to adding different weights of oil.. I don't think anyone would argue that you will benefit by mixing 10w40 and 5w30 engine oil. The same rational would be applied to the soup of gear oil and grease.
However, I also think that with regular changing of diff oil and repack according the prescribed maintenance schedules that a small leak will not harm it. I think a little gear oil tends to leak through rather than collect in the grease.
Has anyone ever just mixed them up in a bowl to see if they dissolve?
I got a sneaking suspicion that they don't and will seperate pretty quickly.
But hey, I dont know %*it.
Don't listen to me I'm just a newby.
 
Gold Finger said:
I would go further and say that the CV (birfield) joint seals are far superior in Most Landover products to Toyota products, :)
Click to expand...

Those sound like fighting words to me.

I'm not familiar with Land Rover's CV joints. Now you have me curious. I will have to find one and check them out.

Anyone have a picture of a Land Rover CV joint?
 
Gold Finger said:
I am talking about a full time 4x4 set up with Landover’s and it is a fair comparison. I have owned a 101 Forward Control Landover since 1990, this vehicle being manufactured in 1975 it is full time 4x4. The vehicle was a military reserve vehicle and had done only 5000 km and was mainly in storage. I replaced most rubber seals breaks CV joints (birfields) etc soon after purchase and has lasted until this day on those seals. The seals are on one side only just beginning to weep; the vehicle has been subjected by me to all kinds of abuse off road including repeated wading half way up the doors, competitive trials and as an every day work horse.

I have also owned a 110 Defender TDI which I also owned for a couple or three years and subjected it to off road abuse with out needing to attend to the CV seals

The reliability of the seals in LR products gave me the confidence to deep wade and off road and yet only ever changed the axle and CV oil when a service was due I soon realised that inspections after deep wading were unnecessary.

I would go further and say that the CV (birfield) joint seals are far superior in Most Landover products to Toyota products, that does not go for every other part of the LR product. These joint seals hardly ever form part of a conversation. :)
Click to expand...

Sorry I'm not familiar with the Rover axles. I was not trying to compare the two axles in any way nor was I saying that one was better than the other. All I was trying to say was that IMO the Land Cruiser birfield design is not flawed.

I too am interested in the Rover design now that you have described it a little. how many kms have you put on the truck in the last 15 years, it sounds like quite a few?
 
Grease is simply oil with a thickening agent whose sole purpose is to keep the lube where the engineers wanted it. Some greases may have specific properties for specific applications that can be achieved in ways oil cannot, but I'm not aware of them. I'd speculate the oil may provide superior lubrication as it can more quickly carry heat away from a hot bearing, and also do the same for wear molecules.

I'm familiar with LR's design on their front birf housing and like it except for one reason. When the seals do go, the assembly is immediately and summarily disabled. Obviously, for a machine designed as the LandCruiser and LR are, for offroad or difficult operating conditions, this could happen at an inopportune time. By contrast, the LC seals simply weep more and give you literally tens of thousands of miles advance warning. Knowing Toyota as I do, I suspect this was behind their design intent. They'll give up the "ultimate" in something (in this case the best lube strategy) for reliability and durability under the severe conditions the LC was designed for, while ensuring what they gave up in one area is accounted for another way. In this case by a large housing volume that also provides excellent lube. I think the LR design still provides superior lubrication, but it would be irelevent if proper maintenance is performed on a Cruiser.

At the end of the day, I still respect the LR design. Imagine for a moment you could simply drain your birf/steering knuckle and refill it like you do your diffs. Nice, eh?

DougM
 
at least the LR guys were smart enough to keep the oil separate btwn the knuckle and diff right?
(eh, these are Brits you know, gotta ask... :D )
 
IdahoDoug said:
Grease is simply oil with a thickening agent whose sole purpose is to keep the lube where the engineers wanted it. Some greases may have specific properties for specific applications that can be achieved in ways oil cannot, but I'm not aware of them. I'd speculate the oil may provide superior lubrication as it can more quickly carry heat away from a hot bearing, and also do the same for wear molecules.

I'm familiar with LR's design on their front birf housing and like it except for one reason. When the seals do go, the assembly is immediately and summarily disabled. Obviously, for a machine designed as the LandCruiser and LR are, for offroad or difficult operating conditions, this could happen at an inopportune time. By contrast, the LC seals simply weep more and give you literally tens of thousands of miles advance warning. Knowing Toyota as I do, I suspect this was behind their design intent. They'll give up the "ultimate" in something (in this case the best lube strategy) for reliability and durability under the severe conditions the LC was designed for, while ensuring what they gave up in one area is accounted for another way. In this case by a large housing volume that also provides excellent lube. I think the LR design still provides superior lubrication, but it would be irelevent if proper maintenance is performed on a Cruiser.

At the end of the day, I still respect the LR design. Imagine for a moment you could simply drain your birf/steering knuckle and refill it like you do your diffs. Nice, eh?

DougM
Click to expand...

I am not partisan about any inanimate object and have chosen a Landcruiser but the LR birfield seals in my experience are superior, they do not normally go all at once, when they go they weep for some time and can easily be cured by simply putting some outer seals on or just filling with grease. The UK is the land of the Landover and quite simply they are the most popular off road 4x4 here by far with a huge network of affiliated clubs and non affiliated clubs, I have been in contact with the mark for 20 years and can tell you that I would know if there was a problem with this. All vehicles have there week spots some more than others and the LR is not short of them but in this case I have to disagree the LC design is simply not as good in my opinion as the LR in this case. :bounce:
 
Check the 60s forum...

Hey Guys -

Look in the 60s forum.

Member Cahilc had a long thread about this, and he tried running oil in his knuckles for a while.

Don't recall whether he went back to grease or not. :D

Andy
 
Andy,

I looked and couldn't find it. Can you post the link perhaps? I would be very interested in reading the thread.

Also, if we ran oil in our knuckles, wouldn't it just leak out the bottom? I don't the think the felt seal is enough to hold the oil back.
 
Scott,

Just a little clarifcation here....LR switched to the "one shot" grease for the birfs some time ago. Eact tube costs about $13 and is very portable. Each birfs take exactly one tube of the one shot lubricant. The consistency is somwhere between grease and a 120 wt oil. The lubricant is synthetic and has excellent properties even if water sneaks into the housing.

Some of my LR buddies have switched to grease in the birfs/CVs w/o any ill effects. Some even went so far as to remove the axle seals on all four axles and let the 90 wt bathe the cvs and the wheel bearings.

This doesn't answer your questions unfortunately! I'm curious about this myself....!
 
alia176 said:
Scott,

Just a little clarifcation here....LR switched to the "one shot" grease for the birfs some time ago. Eact tube costs about $13 and is very portable. Each birfs take exactly one tube of the one shot lubricant. The consistency is somwhere between grease and a 120 wt oil. The lubricant is synthetic and has excellent properties even if water sneaks into the housing.

Some of my LR buddies have switched to grease in the birfs/CVs w/o any ill effects. Some even went so far as to remove the axle seals on all four axles and let the 90 wt bathe the cvs and the wheel bearings.

This doesn't answer your questions unfortunately! I'm curious about this myself....!
Click to expand...

Yes the landy will run on iether without problems but Idoubt that the 80 will, as mine had brand new seals and a garage put hypoid :whoops: in the birfields and it just ozed out!
 
these guys have fixed the maintenance problem for the toyota birfield system by creating an inner lube tube that allows the birf grease to be replenished simply by removing the flange cap, but, unfortunately, they don't make a birfield that will accept an abs ring for the later 80 series, and don't appear to be interested in building one.

http://www.gearingdynamics.com/greasecv.htm
 
What is hypoid? Never heard of it.
 
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