Not starting...fuel issue?

[GregFrench]

1981 2H

When I go to start my truck it acts like there is no fuel. Starter cranks and cranks and cranks until the battery starts to die. Sometimes it eventually will start...Sometimes I have to get out and give it a shot of ether. Once it starts, it runs great...nice and steady smooth (for a diesel). No loss of power or anything.

It is worst in the morning after it has been sitting, but it is noticable after it has been parked for an hour or so.

Glow plugs are good and getting power. I don't see any signs of leaking on any of the fuel lines. Someone said something about a check valve in the primer or something. How would I check that?

Any other ideas of what it could be and how to fix it?

 

[Joe Egolf]

hard start

Air in fuel system i believe. There are posts here ref primer pump -bosch is popular and there is one used by mercedes benz that fits 3b's.Search "lost Marbles" here as he has good pics of all these things and good write ups ref this.

 

[lostmarbles]

If (first thing in the morning) you are able to get air out of the bleeders on your fuel filter and injector pump (and it starts fine/much-better immediately after you've done this air-bleeding) - then I would suspect that you have a leak somewhere on the suction-side of your fuel pump that is causing your problem. (Perhaps at the primer pump as Joe mentions.)

A pin-hole leak there would cause the fuel in your fuel line to drain back into your fuel tank and be replaced by air during any significant "engine-off period".

When bleeding "without air contamination" - the exiting fuel should appear as a "clear liquid" from your bleeders .

When bleeding "with air contamination" - you'll get "nothing coming out for a while" or "white froth coming out" (generally).

But if it "starts with ether" and without any "air bleeding" - then I think your problem is more likely to be your glowplug system (even though you say your plugs are OK and getting power).

Are your plugs getting power long enough to glow properly? Are they the correct voltage-rating for your vehicle? Etc

I suspect the ether is doing what the glow plugs should be doing ie.- heating your cylinders enough to allow the atomised-diesel to combust.

 

[GregFrench]

If (first thing in the morning) you are able to get air out of the bleeders on your fuel filter and injector pump (and it starts fine/much-better immediately after you've done this air-bleeding) - then I would suspect that you have a leak somewhere on the suction-side of your fuel pump that is causing your problem. (Perhaps at the primer pump as Joe mentions.)

A pin-hole leak there would cause the fuel in your fuel line to drain back into your fuel tank and be replaced by air during any significant "engine-off period".

When bleeding "without air contamination" - the exiting fuel should appear as a "clear liquid" from your bleeders .

When bleeding "with air contamination" - you'll get "nothing coming out for a while" or "white froth coming out" (generally).

But if it "starts with ether" and without any "air bleeding" - then I think your problem is more likely to be your glowplug system (even though you say your plugs are OK and getting power).

Are your plugs getting power long enough to glow properly? Are they the correct voltage-rating for your vehicle? Etc

I suspect the ether is doing what the glow plugs should be doing ie.- heating your cylinders enough to allow the atomised-diesel to combust.

The plugs were all replaced at the beginning of the summer. It is acting like they are bad, though, but they are brand new, so I don't think they would be bad yet. I checked the power going to the busbar just to be sure nothing was disconnected.
If there were a hole in a fuel line, wouldn't the fuel be leaking also?

 

[lostmarbles]

The plugs were all replaced at the beginning of the summer. It is acting like they are bad, though, but they are brand new, so I don't think they would be bad yet. I checked the power going to the busbar just to be sure nothing was disconnected..................

Glow plugs have different voltage ratings. The correct rating depends on what type of glow-control system is fitted to your particular vehicle.

Not only should you have compared your old and new "plug dimensions" - but you should also have compared their "voltage ratings" (stamped on each plug).

Mine are 8.5V plugs - You may be able to read the writing on them here:



(If someone else fitted your plugs - Then you're relying totally on their competence/experience to have done this.)

My experience is that internet-vendors (and their selection charts) often list the wrong plugs as being suitable for particular model cruisers.

If their voltage rating is "below spec" they are likely to burn out on their first use (or burnout your "glowcontroller). And if "above spec" - Then they just won't glow.

....
If there were a hole in a fuel line, wouldn't the fuel be leaking also? ......

No fuel leaks out if the leak is on the suction (below atmospheric pressure) side of your fuel pump. That is - all the section highlighted in red here:



PS. This diagram is for the B engine. I have a feeling that the injector bleed line (from the injectors) is run back to the fuel tank on some/all 3B engines (rather than being fed back into the fuel pump inlet as shown here). If so, leaks in that line won't contaminate your fuel with air.

 

[roscoFJ73]

If there were a hole in a fuel line, wouldn't the fuel be leaking also?

Not a hole but more likely a loose connection. If it has spring clamps ,replace them with proper hose clamps.
Mine was not leaking fuel and it was the main hose into the injector pump

 

[smack]

as mentioned in the other post
have you checked out the check valve in the primer pump?
this is a one way valve and stops fuel running back into the tank
so u always have fuel up at the pump
if this valve is not working fuel will seep past (overnight)
and u will have a air gap in your line...
i dont know to much bout the 2H but i will look in the manual
2 night

cheers...

 

[GregFrench]

I have the correct 8.5v plugs, but I will pull them today just to see if they are burned out. It is unlikely they would all burn out at the same time, right?

How would I go about checking the valve at the primer pump? I unscrewed it and pulled up the handle, then tried to push it down but it wouldn't go until I cranked up the truck. This is what it has always done.

I know when my veggie system was installed 2 years ago, they did something to the primer pump, and I was told it wouldn't work the right way any more.

My hose clamps were all replaced with real clamps, so no springs here.
I guess I will inspect all of the clamps and hoses today and look for any looseness/holes.

 

[GregFrench]

Ok. Went out this morning after it had been sitting all night and cracked each of the injector nuts to see if there was fuel in the lines. Nothing seeped out right away. Turned the key, and on about the second rotation, they all started spewing fuel. That tells me there was fuel in the lines, and leaking down is most likely not happening.

Pulled a glow plug and it was burned through. I mean, warper, scorched metal and the tip was gone. These have been in for only about 3 months. How long does it normally take for glow plugs to burn through the bottom? Do you think I have the wrong ones in? I have the 8.5v, which is what came out of it, and what everyone instructed me to use on a 1981 Aussie 2H with a 12v system. I got them from Roodogs, who seem to know their stuff.

It sure acts like the glow isn't working, so this may be the case.

Should I buy the next size up? Is there a US version that I can buy locally?

 

[lostmarbles]

I have the correct 8.5v plugs, but I will pull them today just to see if they are burned out. It is unlikely they would all burn out at the same time, right?....

If they are 8.5V - I guess you have the same system as me where you wait about 20 seconds for the dash-mounted glow controller to glow orange before engaging the starter Greg?

No need to "pull" your glow plugs. If you have a multimeter, just remove the "GP bus bar" and check each plug in turn for "continuity". Set your multimeter to "ohms" and place one probe on the top terminal of each glowplug with the other probe touching an "earth" (such as bare aluminium on the inlet manifold). If the needle moves - your plug is OK.

It is probably a waste of time. Because if they are new and of the correct voltage (as you say) - Then I now think it is unlikely that any of them are burnt out.

How would I go about checking the valve at the primer pump? I unscrewed it and pulled up the handle, then tried to push it down but it wouldn't go until I cranked up the truck. This is what it has always done....

If the check valves aren't working/seating, the primer shouldn't be able to pump fuel. And if you can't push the plunger down without the engine running - It sounds to me like yours will indeed pump fuel. (It won't move because, in pushing it, you are trying to "compress trapped fuel". But when the engine is running, the "pulses" from the mechanical fuel pump "bounce" the check valves - allowing the trapped fuel to escape. Or at least this is what I imagine happens. )

I don't see how fuel can drain back into your tank and be replaced by air (because of a faulty check valve or whatever) without a hole/gap being present somewhere to allow that air to enter. (Air can't be somehow generated within the fuel.)

...I know when my veggie system was installed 2 years ago, they did something to the primer pump, and I was told it wouldn't work the right way any more.....

Sounds odd/dodgy. ---- I like to know everything about my vehicle which is why NO-ONE has ever worked on it but me. Obviously you need a primer pump that works. ( I wonder what they meant by "wouldn't work the right way".)

 

[lostmarbles]

Ok. Went out this morning after it had been sitting all night and cracked each of the injector nuts to see if there was fuel in the lines. Nothing seeped out right away. Turned the key, and on about the second rotation, they all started spewing fuel. That tells me there was fuel in the lines, and leaking down is most likely not happening.........

Unfortunately this wasn't they way to do the test Greg.

There are "bleed valves" fitted on your fuel filter and injector pump. These are the normal places to check for trapped air and you do it at these places by operating the primer pump with the engine off. Only once you have bled the air from those places would you "crack the nuts on tops of the injectors". And you do that always with the engine either "cranking-over on the starter" or "running". (2-person job if you're cranking it.)

Edit - But thinking about it more- What you did has indeed proven that air-contamination isn't the problem because the injector ine wouldn't squirt fuel if the injector pump held air. (It is just that "cracking the injector nuts first" is not the right way to remove air if some HAD been present.)

....Pulled a glow plug and it was burned through. I mean, warper, scorched metal and the tip was gone. These have been in for only about 3 months. How long does it normally take for glow plugs to burn through the bottom? Do you think I have the wrong ones in? I have the 8.5v, which is what came out of it, and what everyone instructed me to use on a 1981 Aussie 2H with a 12v system. I got them from Roodogs, who seem to know their stuff.

It sure acts like the glow isn't working, so this may be the case.

S-H-I-T. Here I am working my way through your posts (making my replies to each bit) and I see you seem to have actually FOUND your problem here!

....Should I buy the next size up? Is there a US version that I can buy locally?....

No. You must have the correct plugs for your vehicle. NEVER change from the correct specification (unless you've first changed your glow-control system).

Did you lay the old and new glow plugs side by side? Perhaps the dimensions of the new ones were wrong (if the voltage was correct).

Also, choose a good brand. Like HKT. (What brand did you use?)

At least burning-out/damaging your new glow plugs is cheap to fix compared to having a burntout/damaged glow controller.

Crazykritters is another Aussi internet-supplier for glowplugs. And they stock the HKT (Japanese brand).

 

[roscoFJ73]

Pulled a glow plug and it was burned through. I mean, warper, scorched metal and the tip was gone. These have been in for only about 3 months. How long does it normally take for glow plugs to burn through the bottom? Do you think I have the wrong ones in? I have the 8.5v, which is what came out of it, and what everyone instructed me to use on a 1981 Aussie 2H with a 12v system. I got them from Roodogs, who seem to know their stuff.

It sure acts like the glow isn't working, so this may be the case.

Should I buy the next size up? Is there a US version that I can buy locally?

Something seriously wrong here. They should last for 5-10 years. Roodogs sell the HKT brand and they are long lasting,even the cheap chinese ones last longer than 3 months.
They dont normally burn out like you have described either, they just stop working.

Either they are glowing for far too long or you have some seriously hot EGT happening in the head.
The other remote chance is they are too long and have been hitting the pistons.

Were you able to compare them with the new ones and/or were the old ones in a similar state?

Primer pumps ,if worn out, spew fuel when using them and are known to leak air even when they are in their locked down position. Its a bit hard to tell whats happening after the modifications done to your fuel system

 

[GregFrench]

Yes. The new plugs were exactly the same size as the ones I took out.

 

[lostmarbles]

Yes. The new plugs were exactly the same size as the ones I took out.

OK. So your new plugs appear to have been correct for your vehicle Greg.

How many of them failed?

Do you have any idea why the failed one(s) lasted such a short time?

Perhaps your ignition switch is faulty and left them energised when they shouldn't have been (like all-the-time-the-engine-was-running)?

Do you have a dash-mounted glow controller where you can see "a coil of hot wire glowing" when you are ready to engage the starter? And if so, how long does it take for it to glow? Have you noticed any change in the "brightness" or "the time taken for it to reach the appropriate brightness" recently????? Did it remain glowing continuously even once the engine had started?

These are the types of things I would be looking at Greg.

 

[roscoFJ73]

Perhaps your ignition switch is faulty and left them energised when they shouldn't have been (like all-the-time-the-engine-was-running)?

.

Even when they are over glowed,it doesnt normally cause the tips to disintergrate. The ones Ive seen just stop working as the insides are burnt out.
And the other question that springs to mind is ,where did the tips go?

 

[lostmarbles]

Even when they are over glowed,it doesnt normally cause the tips to disintergrate. The ones Ive seen just stop working as the insides are burnt out.
And the other question that springs to mind is ,where did the tips go?

A valuable comment Rosco - I have to admit that I have never had one single "glow plug failure" in 30 odd years and 200,000km with my BJ40. So I actually have no experience to work on here.

 

[GregFrench]

My glow indicator does not work. It did until about a year ago. I tested it, and it is getting power but it no longer glows. Guess i need a new one.
Plugs are not staying energized as far as I can tell. I hooked up a tester to them. It is energized when I turn the key backwards, and it goes off when the key is turned back.
Where did the tips go? That is the question right there. I haven't checked them all yet. I only pulled one to see if there was anything obviously wrong that could be causing the failure. There was.

I'll take some pics of the plugs when I get home in a few weeks so you can see the ends.

I see that the 2H also takes 10.5v for a 1981. Should I buy a set and try them?

 

[lostmarbles]

My glow indicator does not work. It did until about a year ago. I tested it, and it is getting power but it no longer glows. Guess i need a new one.....

A number of people here (on MUD) say their glow indicators don't glow and that has always puzzled me.

This is how mine glows:



And this is the wiring diagram for it which shows that ALL my glow plug current flows through this coil - So I'm baffled as to how glow plugs would glow if this dash coil (glow-controller) doesn't. ---Your 2H simply has 2 extra plugs and probably a different model(PartNumber) controller to mine:

....Plugs are not staying energized as far as I can tell. I hooked up a tester to them. It is energized when I turn the key backwards, and it goes off when the key is turned back.......

Great - So the ignition switch doesn't appear to be the culprit. That's good.

....Where did the tips go? That is the question right there. I haven't checked them all yet. I only pulled one to see if there was anything obviously wrong that could be causing the failure. There was....I'll take some pics of the plugs when I get home in a few weeks so you can see the ends........

Look forward to seeing the pictures Greg. (I'm sure more than just Rosco and myself will be interested.)

I'm lost as to why the tips should disintegrate (when Rosco says that any electrical failure of the plug is normally hidden internally Edit 25/7/08 - probably a bit of a "misquote" here! - Not exactly what Rosco said). ----- What do you think Rosco? This picture shows that the plug tips sit just above the precups. So nothing in the cylinders could hit them?:

...I see that the 2H also takes 10.5v for a 1981. Should I buy a set and try them?

Well I see only the 8.5V plug listed for your year (19850-68030 12V 8.5V plugs). And besides - I thought you said you've always used 8.5V plugs ( even when your truck was starting well.)

So----- No. I would only change the plug voltage if you KNOW the new voltage is what is correct for YOUR glow system. From where I sit, that doesn't appear to be the case. (But of course I wouldn't have as much information about your vehicle as you do - Perhaps things have been altered on it over the years?) ----But I certainly wouldn't simply EXPERIMENT with changing my plug specs - in other words.

PS. If it was me, I would have got to the bottom of "why my glow controller stopped glowing" as soon as possible after that event occurred. I would not be happy "glowing my plugs" without getting any visual indication of how hot they are getting. (I think we are very lucky in our "old-world" control systems in having such a good visual indication.) - I'm guessing that SOMEHOW (I can't understand how - perhaps with fewer than 6 working glowplugs) your vehicle still started well in cold weather - even though your glow-controller wouldn't glow!

PPS. Yes. Thinking about it more - If one or more of your glowplugs fail (leaving others still working) the current through the working plugs will still be enough to cause them to glow brightly (in fact that current will be a bit HIGHER than normal causing them to heat up faster/brighter - because there will be less voltage-drop through the glowcontroller) yet the glow controller won't glow anymore because of the lower current flow through it (cause by the open-circuited/faulty plugs). ................. There. You can always fathom things out if you think hard enough about it..... And this adds weight to the theory that once one glowplug fails - others are likely to follow (because they start getting supplied with more than their rated voltage because of lower back-emf (voltage drop) through the glow controller!!!!!

 

[Tapage]

I'm lost as to why the tips should disintegrate (when Rosco says that any electrical failure of the plug is normally hidden internally). ----- What do you think Rosco? This picture shows that the plug tips sit just above the precups. So nothing in the cylinders could hit them?

No .. never and are far away from the piston just inside the precup.

Well I just looked up in my Toyota EPC and I see only the 8.5V plug listed for your year.

Mines are 8.5 .. even with bad glow plugs a healthy 2H will be able to start rought but start and run under normal temp conditions .. ( means over 12 - 15ºC ) outside ..

 

[GregFrench]

Glad to see I'm not the only one baffled here. Contacted RooDogs and they said they would send me a new set of plugs for free. I also ordered a glow indicator.

Here is some history:

- Bought the truck 2 years ago and everyuthing worked great.
- Started taking a long time to start AND the indicator took a long time to glow. Eventually, indicator stopped and all glow plugs were bad.
- Put in a temporary set (re: used ones donated to me) to get me through the winter and indicator worked great again, started right up every time...even on the coldest mornings.
- Glow indicator stopped working again, so I figured my temporary plugs no longer worked. Bought the new set from Roodogs.
- Put in new set and indicator still did not work, but glow plugs did. Tested the indicator and found it was getting power (wires going in and coming out of it) when the key was turned to glow. I didn't really understand this, because the picture I have shows the indicator as part of the circuit. If current is flowing, it should be glowing. But the in and out wires were getting power so I let it go. So for the glow time: I just counted 15-20 seconds, which is how long it usually took to light up.
- Last week I found it was not starting right away and posted this first post, not even bothering with the glow plugs because they were practically brand new.
- Pulled one and it was bad. Waiting to get home in a week or so to pull the rest and take pics.

Could they be getting too much power? How would I test that? I want to get to the source of the problem and fix it instead fo continuing to treat the symptoms.