North American expeditions: roof racks vs. trailers

[Tigerstripe40]

Mark,

Not all of us are lucky enough to have 350 miles of trails at our disposal...

Part of my trip next month will be run on Kane Creek in Moab. It has a lot of off camber sections before you reach the creek bottom. At this point I'm a bit worried about high weight. More than likely I'll be off loading most of my roof rack stuff to the 100 series that will be bypassing the trail. Ideally a long range tank will relieve a lot of the fuel weight concerns.

For those of you who have been lucky enough to take extended (1month or longer) treks what do you find to be the largest/heaviest necessities? My longest trip was 3.5 weeks to Alaska back in 98. I was lucky in that I spent 5 days at a house in Juneau to reset for the rest of the trip. Rarely have I been out longer than 2 weeks. My travel has been US and Canada only so I've never worried too much about water. I would imagine that would be a serious consideration in other parts of the world. Have I hijacked yet? If not I can keep going...
dmc

Save something for Saline Valley Dave....
Go visit that book of yours I need to replace....
:whoops:

 

[dmc]

Save something for Saline Valley Dave....
Go visit that book of yours I need to replace....
:whoops:

Yeah I was thinking about that the other day. I think before I get back to Death Valley I'll be making a trip through the Black Rock desert. So find me a guide book for that, soak it in water 'til it's barely usable then give it to me and we'll be even.
dmc

 

[Mark W]

Mark,

Not all of us are lucky enough to have 350 miles of trails at our disposal...

Yeaaahhh I know.

Actually I'm hooing to travel light enough that we can carry all the fuel on the rear bumper (I'm making an 8 can carrier for one rig right now) and/or in the rig(s). I really would prefer not to drag a trailer over this route if I can avoid it. I know that there are some marshy/boggy sections we will have to negotiate. And so far as I know now one has ever taken a wheeled vehicle over the deepest 75 or so miles of the route. Who knows... we may not be able to either.

Mark...

 

[Exiled]

I go by experience. Roof racks are great, but weight is a concern. I can't tell you how many Land Cruisers with cracked windshields from overloaded roofracks I've seen in my time. I've also seen loaded racks push a Cruiser over their side on situations where even a light load up top would have been OK. Seven full jerry cans, an expedition tent and some gear up top, and you're already pushing it. Throw on the 12' aluminum boats we used to load up there to go fishing, and the weight (and as Mark pointed out, the aerodynamics) really start becoming an issue.

Yes, you can do the minimalist packing style, but on long trips, it gets uncomfortable.

Trailers are great for some applications, but a PITA for others. I completely disagree that a trailer is like having another rig. That may be true for a crappy trailer, but a well-built, well-engineered offroad trailer should be easy to handle and pretty much maintenance free. They're a bitch to drag through tough trails and almost impossible to tow through mud. In fact, at that point the easiest thing to do is unhitch them and winch them through.

The reason I brought the thread up is because most trips in North America, barring some remote areas of Canada and Mexico, probably don't justify the need for a trailer. So I was curious to see what people used theirs for and whether they justify them. I would have thought that people driving long highway trips to get to the trails would prefer a trailer....

 

[Mark W]

Yep. For roads, poor roads, back roads, fire roads, abandoned roads, riverbeds, high alpine passes and anywhere there is a less than mucky surface I prefer a trailer to a rack if I am trying to carry much gear. If I'm travelling light. then often a roof rack is quicker and easier to mess with.

If I'm dealing with really soft trails (say a dozen miles of two track over wet peat leading to a valley floor full of swamp seeps and slowly filling sloughs) then a trailer can really suck. Suck you down to the bottom that is.
In that case the answer is usually to travel lighter and keep it all in the rig if possible. I don't like anything heavy up on a rack. I've done it. I made a couple of trips up and down the Alaska Highway with about 300-400 pounds loaded on top of a wagon. But when it comes time to leave the road I just say no to that kind of load on the top.


Mark...

 

[expeditionswest]

Another great discussion!

Roof Racks: Roof racks are only appropriate for light items, properly secured and at minimal height. The roof rack is the most often incorrectly used accessory, loaded to the hilt with fuel and water and a heavy spare tire. Then they vehicle owner puts all of the light weight camping equipment IN the truck . This happens more often than not. Fuel should go in an aux. fuel tank, or at the last resort, in the vehicle, in high quality NATO cans. Water too should be mounted in the cab. If a roof rack is used, the maximum weight should be less than 150 lbs. (including the rack weight) for improved surfaces, and less than 100 lbs. for unimproved tracks.

During this last weekend, I competed in the NVTR navigation ralley in northern Nevada, and FOUR roof rack failed during the event. I only use one to haul my kayak to Baja on easy trails and roads.

Trailers: I own two off-highway trailers, and they both work very well on most trails. The smaller of the two is a VenturCraft with 30" tires and 18" of ground clearance, articulating hitch, etc., and I also use a much larger, but more comfortable Jumping Jack trailer for base camp type trips and milder trails and roads. Trailer are really nice, as the payload is spread over another axle, and the weight is kept off of the roof of the vehicle, etc. The biggest problem I have found is related to travel speeds and recovery.

Travel Speeds: The trail speed of my Tacoma with the trailer is less than half the speed than without. My truck has 9" of travel in the front and nearly 13" in the rear. The trailers have about 2.5" with the torsion axles. So, if you are not in a hurry, go with the trailer.

Recovery: What is you fail a hill climb, or get stuck in a canyon bottom and need to reverse out? If the trailer is heavier than 4-600 lbs., you are in big trouble. I have had to drop the trailers before and attempt to man-handle them out of the way (not fun).

The best solution IMO is to work hard on organization and space utilization. Put fuel under the truck and between the frame rails, put water low in the cabin (or bed) and use split level cargo units or drawers.

Right now, I am working on additional bed storage and a low-profile mount over the bed for my new roof tent...

We will see how that works

 

[Mark W]

Nato cans are okay. But the modern US military plastic jerry can beats it flat. These are also available direct to the civilian market. No rattles, no rust and just as leak proof as the Nato can. And you don't have to serch the world hoping to find a vented spout. The unvented chinese junk that most folks wind up using with the Nato can take a couple/three minutes to empty the can. A plain old blitz can spout in a plastic US mil-spec can will dump the entire five gallons in 30 seconds.

Mark...

 

[expeditionswest]

I have seen too many cap failures on the plastic units to be convinced yet...

The best method of fuel transfer from the cans I have found is with the Extreme Outback pressurized system with nozzle or the simple hose with siphon valve.

For me though, I run a 22 gallon aux. tank with transfer pump.

 

[Mark W]

I have seen too many cap failures on the plastic units to be convinced yet...

I have seen nothing like this. I've got about 20 of these, all well used (by the military before I got 'em and by me and my bunch since). What sort of failure do you refer to?

Mark...

 

[Dunbar]

Nato cans are okay. But the modern US military plastic jerry can beats it flat. These are also available direct to the civilian market. No rattles, no rust and just as leak proof as the Nato can. And you don't have to serch the world hoping to find a vented spout. The unvented chinese junk that most folks wind up using with the Nato can take a couple/three minutes to empty the can. A plain old blitz can spout in a plastic US mil-spec can will dump the entire five gallons in 30 seconds.

Mark...

Anyone have a link to these cans? What would I ask for locally at a mil surplus store? I want to mount a couple to the toungue of my trailer and lock them on.

Thanks,

Dunbar

Full Garvin Wilderness rack w/ short & long mounts and 4WX8LX4H enclosed utility for on road and light duty off road. 3 child seats in back seat and related paraphanilia take up the cabin space.

 

[dmc]

Yep. For roads, poor roads, back roads, fire roads, abandoned roads, riverbeds, high alpine passes and anywhere there is a less than mucky surface I prefer a trailer to a rack if I am trying to carry much gear. If I'm travelling light. then often a roof rack is quicker and easier to mess with.

Mark...

How do trailers handled those deep, swift, cold river crossing you have teased us all with over the years? Seems like a trailer would act as a serious anchor in that scenario.

dmc

 

[dmc]

Another great discussion!

Roof Racks: Roof racks are only appropriate for light items, properly secured and at minimal height. The roof rack is the most often incorrectly used accessory, loaded to the hilt with fuel and water and a heavy spare tire. Then they vehicle owner puts all of the light weight camping equipment IN the truck . This happens more often than not. Fuel should go in an aux. fuel tank, or at the last resort, in the vehicle, in high quality NATO cans. Water too should be mounted in the cab. If a roof rack is used, the maximum weight should be less than 150 lbs. (including the rack weight) for improved surfaces, and less than 100 lbs. for unimproved tracks.

QUOTE]


Scott,

This goes back to my question about gear. Maybe I need to start a different thread. I have put gas on my roof rack and am working on a better solution. I too am interested in the plastic military cans Mark is talking about. Aside from fuel where does all the weight come from? Food? spare parts and tools? I reserve the rest of my rack (if necessary) for camping gear and clothes if the weather permits. That stuff is usually light and pliable and unless the weather gets really bad a simple tarp will keep it dry. I realize this is a NA poll and my experience is mainly in the desert southwest. I'm used to dry summer air or snow. Very little rain. My years in Alaska were spent in Juneau so driving more than 50 miles was impossible but that conditioned me for the rain. I'm anxious to learn from the more experienced before I make the mistake of cracking my winshield or rolling it due to poor packing.
thanks,
dmc

 

[Dunbar]

Current US military plastic can

Couple of calls to local army surplus stores yielded nothing other than one lady saying that Academy Sports & Outdoors has a commercial copy of the current military plastic gas can. Have not looked at one though.

Google turned up this site: http://www.olive-drab.com/od_mvg_jerry_can_plastic.php

Does that one look like the current US plastic can?

Other sources?

I would not put a fuel can on a roof rack on the road for safety reasons. I am thinking mounting them on the trailer toungue would be safe except in an extremely bad accident.


Thanks,
Dunbar

 

[expeditionswest]

I have found a few issues with the plastic units, but at the end of the day, it just becomes a personal preference. Here are a few things I have found:

1. Single handle reduces tiedown strength.

2. When exposed to direct sunlight for extended periods (like in AZ where I live) the caps become brittle, and as they are coarse threaded must be tightened firmly, leading to failure at the cap. I think we can both agree that the leak resistance of the Wedco units with their thick gaskets and leveraged and safety pinned lids are a great design.

3. The plastic units also bulge more under pressure, and can be difficult or impossible to slide out of the mounts without releaving the pressure (which could be in the cab of the vehicle).

I am not saying these units are inneffective, as they too have their uses. It is just my preference and experience to use coated steel NATO style Wedco cans for carrying water. In tens of thousands of miles, I have never had a failure.

If I were to use a plastic can, I would go with the scepter units. These cans DO have three handles and a better quality (thicker, seamless high density polyethylene). You can find them here

 

[expeditionswest]

Scott,

This goes back to my question about gear. Maybe I need to start a different thread. I have put gas on my roof rack and am working on a better solution. I too am interested in the plastic military cans Mark is talking about. Aside from fuel where does all the weight come from? Food? spare parts and tools? I reserve the rest of my rack (if necessary) for camping gear and clothes if the weather permits. That stuff is usually light and pliable and unless the weather gets really bad a simple tarp will keep it dry. I realize this is a NA poll and my experience is mainly in the desert southwest. I'm used to dry summer air or snow. Very little rain. My years in Alaska were spent in Juneau so driving more than 50 miles was impossible but that conditioned me for the rain. I'm anxious to learn from the more experienced before I make the mistake of cracking my winshield or rolling it due to poor packing.
thanks,
dmc

Put your extra fuel, spares, tools and water all low in the chassis and in the first level of the load surface in the cab. Reserve the second level of the load surface for your cooler, cooking equipment and recovery gear. Use the heavy duty waterproof roof rack bags to store your tent, chairs and clothing on the roof rack.

This is a good example of what I am talking about:
Split load system
And this is the same vehicle with a roof rack and light load. Just the tent, chairs, bedding and clothing. Very light...

 

[Owyhee Jackass]

An example of "maximum capacity" All the dry bags on the roof are light stuff, tents, clothes and stuff. Heavy gear is in the trailer.


http://www.nwcruisers.com/rigs/dan_gottsch/therim.jpg


One draw back to roof rack is clearance, Clarence.



http://www.nwcruisers.com/rigs/dan_gottsch/tight.jpg

 

[dmc]

I'm actually building my storage/split load system in the next few weeks. I'm taking a 8 day trip first of September and am trying to get the essentials done for my truck. I'll be posting up pics of the final product once we get them built. I've always packed properly, I believe, except for the fuel on top. Always worried about the fumes in the cab. When I had my taco the fuel usually rode in the bed. What is comes down to is I only one to do mods once. I hate doing things only to find out 6 months later there was a better solution.
dmc

 

[Mark W]

I have not seen these sold as surplus yet. I acquired mine when Klinton was engaged in making our military "Leaner and Meaner, faster and more effective". As part of this a local special forces type unit was shut down and all their personnel were reassigned to a line unit. Several of them were buddies of mine. Anyway they had a lot of stuff that had been swapped and traded off the books as they found stuff they needed but couldn't get through regular channels. Along with more exotic stuff they had a bunch of mundane items that they had no turn in procedures for. The CO told them to deal with it and he would see them on Monday as he left on Friday without locking up. I got a phone call and brought a trailer. We distributed a bunch of stuff to the "back doors" of some of the arms rooms and motor pools and the like around the base and I wound up with a stack of these cans for my help.

But you can buy them on the civilian market. The links below include one that has stuff from the Military production line (He's pretty high on his prices though).

http://www.generatorjoe.net/z04610MaxiCombo.html

One which sells the normal civilian stuff (same thing just in different colors), still expensive but a little better.

http://www.pangaea-expeditions.com/products/brand/scepterprodindex.html

And a link to the manufacturer but it doesn't appear that they sell them retail (but I'm pretty sure a buddy of mine got them to sell him a few a couple of years ago).

http://www.scepter.com/gc/gc_catalo...D=0713144514122121113136&FF=F&FK=Catalog&Z9=0

 

[Mark W]

How do trailers handled those deep, swift, cold river crossing you have teased us all with over the years? Seems like a trailer would act as a serious anchor in that scenario.

dmc

The only trailers I use is a couple of M416. When we need to haul a trailer we put fuel in it first and then other heavy gear. The first few times I was concerned, but I have discovered that they follw the rig just fine and have not had any floating ot side shifting prolems with them. I have a picutre here on the counter beside me of one of my minis pulling an M416 loaded with 31 jerry can out of a swift narrow river channel. The front tires are up on the bank and the rears (36s) are under water. The M416 has been SOA'd and is sitting on 34 inch tires. The water is washing over the upstream lip of the bed as it drops into the last hole. No problems.

Remember that the swift water usually has a hard bottom. I have gotten the same rig and trailer combo stuck (on the same day that the aforementioned picture was taken) in a sand/silt bar in an area of low current that allowed the small particles to settle out. Unhook the trailer,winch the rig one way and the trailer the other. PITA, but all part of the game.

I haven't needed to do it yet, but in a very swift flow with a lightly loaded trailer a chan can be run from the reear of the tow rig to the rear of the trailer on the upstream side of the rig to keep the trailer from being turned sideways as easily by the water.


Mark...

 

[Mark W]

I have found a few issues with the plastic units, but at the end of the day, it just becomes a personal preference. Here are a few things I have found:

1. Single handle reduces tiedown strength.

2. When exposed to direct sunlight for extended periods (like in AZ where I live) the caps become brittle, and as they are coarse threaded must be tightened firmly, leading to failure at the cap. I think we can both agree that the leak resistance of the Wedco units with their thick gaskets and leveraged and safety pinned lids are a great design.

3. The plastic units also bulge more under pressure, and can be difficult or impossible to slide out of the mounts without releaving the pressure (which could be in the cab of the vehicle).

I am not saying these units are inneffective, as they too have their uses. It is just my preference and experience to use coated steel NATO style Wedco cans for carrying water. In tens of thousands of miles, I have never had a failure.

If I were to use a plastic can, I would go with the scepter units. These cans DO have three handles and a better quality (thicker, seamless high density polyethylene). You can find them here

I think that therewas some misunderstanding. The Mil-spec cans I use and recommend ARE the scepter units. No comparision to the cheesy plastic lawnmower cans that have the features/problems you mention.


Mark...