New Shocks on 2013 LX?

[grinchy]

Even tho it is hydraulic, doesn’t AHC need air to do its thing? Isn’t there a air filter somewhere in the system? I could swear that i read someone here that fluid can get contaminated over time due to dirt getting into the system?

air is bad. there is a particulate filter at the fill location, and further particulate filters in the pump works. The reservoir actually has a one way valve on it similar to the diff, and will hold some pressure, but in general the reservoir is at 'air pressure', but that isn't the same as injecting or keeping air in the system.

You might be thinking about the popular 2nd fuel tank products.

 

[AnyMal]

air is bad. there is a particulate filter at the fill location, and further particulate filters in the pump works. The reservoir actually has a one way valve on it similar to the diff, and will hold some pressure, but in general the reservoir is at 'air pressure', but that isn't the same as injecting or keeping air in the system.

You might be thinking about the popular 2nd fuel tank products.

Yes, @Madtiger, there are breathers, but its more to prevent back-pressure in the reservoir and vice versa when its emptying.
They are standard weighted bop breathers back there.

Ideally, you should have no air permeating anything pressurized. Thats why when you take s*** apart, its imperative to bleed multiple times. Just like brakes.

 

[Madtiger]

Thank you to both.

 

[lx200inAR]

Thank you to both.

To add to the confusion. AHC on pretty much any other toyota that is not a 100/200 series is air driven rather than hydraulic. This includes the Sequoias and GXs that have it.

 

[Madtiger]

OK…i found where i read it.

Why LC more expensive than LX?

I have seen that consistently LX prices are significantly less than LCs? Is it mainly because of the number of units sold per year are low or are there any other reasons?

forum.ih8mud.com

Per @tincan45 :

1) Dust Inhalation\Fluid Contamination - As your system raises and lowers it is exhaling and inhaling the air outside via the AHC fluidreservoir. That air may contain dust/moisture/contaminates. Eventually these will build up in the fluid and require a fluid change. Failure to do so will kill it from the inside out. This is not a system you want to wait for signs of failure. If you do, it's too late. You have already been running bad fluid through pumps, manifolds, accumulators, and actuators for too long and have probably already ruined the entire system.

 

[lx200inAR]

OK…i found where i read it.

Why LC more expensive than LX?

I have seen that consistently LX prices are significantly less than LCs? Is it mainly because of the number of units sold per year are low or are there any other reasons?

forum.ih8mud.com

Per @tincan45 :

1) Dust Inhalation\Fluid Contamination - As your system raises and lowers it is exhaling and inhaling the air outside via the AHC fluidreservoir. That air may contain dust/moisture/contaminates. Eventually these will build up in the fluid and require a fluid change. Failure to do so will kill it from the inside out. This is not a system you want to wait for signs of failure. If you do, it's too late. You have already been running bad fluid through pumps, manifolds, accumulators, and actuators for too long and have probably already ruined the entire system.

I don't know if I agree that the system is as open to the atmosphere as he is making it out to be. There is definitely something in the system restrictive to letting outside air in. When you are doing something like changing the accumulators where a lot of fluid must be replaced, the reservoir ends up under negative pressure because not enough air can get it. So it definitely isn't just freely picking up dust when driving down dirt roads.

 

[Roc14]

Hey everybody! So happy to be here as I'm a lifelong Cruiser and LX fan! We purchased our first Cruiser in '89, I was 8 when my dad and I drove from Bartlesville, OK to Lawrence, KS to pick up the rig (1 mile on it) and we had that until my sister totaled it in 2019. Had 357k miles, original engine and tranny. Mom also had a '96 LX450, and a 2003 LX470. So I was thrilled to buy my wife a 2013 LX570 a few years back with 145k miles, one owner, and serviced at the Lexus dealership in Knoxville.

We love the vehicle, it's the first large SUV that my wife actually enjoys driving in. But it seems as if the ride quality has diminished a bit over time in the past few months. We did put BFG KO2s on it in the summer of 21, it appears as if the tread is still fine on these. We are nearing 180k at the moment, no other issues or complaints other than we have noticed the ride quality decline a tad.

So my question is this: When, if at all, should you consider replacing the shocks on a LX? And should we consider servicing the AHC as well? Any advice or guidance would be greatly appreciated!

2011 LX here replaced front shocks and mounts at 185k 11 years. It immediately helped with overall ride and got rid of a little bounce in suspension. I have purchased the globes too. There in the garage the ride is still solid and the AHC system moves well.

Had them done at a Toyota dealership here. The Lexus shop is no good based on my experience. They flushed the AHC fluid as well and put in new fluid for free.

 

[tincan45]

I don't know if I agree that the system is as open to the atmosphere as he is making it out to be. There is definitely something in the system restrictive to letting outside air in. When you are doing something like changing the accumulators where a lot of fluid must be replaced, the reservoir ends up under negative pressure because not enough air can get it. So it definitely isn't just freely picking up dust when driving down dirt roads.

It's not, The LX has several inline filters to prevent particle contamination. The point I was making is that it's not a maintenance-free system as some would have you believe. I'm far from an expert on any of this, that's just my humble opinion. My understanding is the fluid is basically mineral oil. Mineral oil is hydrophobic, so unlike DOT fluid (brake fluid) it will not absorb atmospheric moisture so the service interval is longer, but not infinite. Wear and tear on the globes/struts/pumps/valves "probably" account for more of the internal contaminants than anything.

 

[AnyMal]

It's not, The LX has several inline filters to prevent particle contamination. The point I was making is that it's not a maintenance-free system as some would have you believe. I'm far from an expert on any of this, that's just my humble opinion. My understanding is the fluid is basically mineral oil. Mineral oil is hydrophobic, so unlike DOT fluid (brake fluid) it will not absorb atmospheric moisture so the service interval is longer, but not infinite. Wear and tear on the globes/struts/pumps/valves "probably" account for more of the internal contaminants than anything.

Maintenance free? Its a diva lol.

 

[lx200inAR]

It's not, The LX has several inline filters to prevent particle contamination. The point I was making is that it's not a maintenance-free system as some would have you believe. I'm far from an expert on any of this, that's just my humble opinion. My understanding is the fluid is basically mineral oil. Mineral oil is hydrophobic, so unlike DOT fluid (brake fluid) it will not absorb atmospheric moisture so the service interval is longer, but not infinite. Wear and tear on the globes/struts/pumps/valves "probably" account for more of the internal contaminants than anything.

I agree with that. The way it got reposted here, out of context, it makes it sound like someone is saying AHC is a ticking time bomb with a short fuse.

 

[Madtiger]

I agree with that. The way it got reposted here, out of context, it makes it sound like someone is saying AHC is a ticking time bomb with a short fuse.

Most globes per forum LX570 members go bad at apparently 120k or earlier. Shocks go bad 150k? Fluids at least need to flushed or replaced every 60k or earlier. Lines are exposed and rust prone…and then leaks causing total failure of AHC. IMAGINE this happens on the trail!!

Except for select people on this forum and maybe a handful of dealers in USA (and that is optimistic), no one apparently knows how to maintain this system or work thru the issues without handing over a blank check. A few dealers even charges up to $30k to fix the system (basically tear down and replace). Most charges at least $5-7k just to diagnose and repair.

You can make fun of Range Rovers and Mercedes air system……those may not last as long; but they can be fixed by anyone for reasonable price!!

We need to stop elevating AHC up like it is the holy grail. It is not. It is far from maintenance free. It does not last long before repairs are needed. It is a total sh!t show when it comes to diagnosing issues with it. I rather have the Range Rover air system!

 

[grinchy]

Most globes per forum LX570 members go bad at apparently 120k or earlier. Shocks go bad 150k? Fluids at least need to flushed or replaced every 60k or earlier. Lines are exposed and rust prone…and then leaks causing total failure of AHC. IMAGINE this happens on the trail!!

Except for select people on this forum and maybe a handful of dealers in USA (and that is optimistic), no one apparently knows how to maintain this system or work thru the issues without handing over a blank check. A few dealers even charges up to $30k to fix the system (basically tear down and replace). Most charges at least $5-7k just to diagnose and repair.

You can make fun of Range Rovers and Mercedes air system……those may not last as long; but they can be fixed by anyone for reasonable price!!

We need to stop elevating AHC up like it is the holy grail. It is not. It is far from maintenance free. It does not last long before repairs are needed. It is a total sh!t show when it comes to diagnosing issues with it. I rather have the Range Rover air system!

Figured that was coming. I highly recommend you get yourself into a Rover. It’s the same thing of course! Basically exactly the same thing except it isn’t at all, sharing how many common parts? 0.

Go off and price an equivalent suspension system of any make and model to ahc. It must be Height adjustable, 150k maintenance interval. Weight biasing. Crosslinked. Computer linked to the car inputs. didn’t find it? Amirite?

Ok ok. Go price the replacement for your normal suspension. Get the good medium range one. The one many tlc owners do when they add tires. What was it? $2k?

That is about two entire refreshes of ahc- globes and struts. Say 300000 miles of uses. And it still isn’t height adjustable. Or weight biasing, or on the fly adjustable damping, or brake dive preventing. And you have a permanent 2 or 3” lift to raise the cog, so driving dynamics are not as good.

What? You need shock rebuilds to go 300000 miles too? How many? 2 on the cheap ones, 4 or more on the expensive ones? Tack on $2000 more for this conventional suspension.

So the tlc at 300k with a basic lift is $4k. And ahc which has additional utility is $2k at the same mileage.

Oh, you don’t need a lift because you’re running standard size tires and the oem suspension is good enough. that isn’t feature parity with ahc is it? It isn’t height adjustable, it can’t accommodate 35” tires, it doesn’t have adjustable on the fly damping. You still should do shocks though, for 300k. And are you really going to put in oem? answer honestly. nope. $2k for basic ones, but you’ve waited so long. Might as well do stage 5 kings right. $6k. Yep, still less features than Ahc.

Do you think it’s a mistake that the top of the line tlc trim and Lexus models come with ahc? Do you think it might be that Toyota puts their premier suspension on their premier vehicle? Maybe? Maybe?

I do think keeping the Lexus techs up to date on the suspension would be a good idea, but they’ll never see my truck anyhow.

And yes, in 5 to 50 years I won’t be able to get parts, or the computer capacitors will fail, or the lines will rust thru. Stuff gets old and breaks, for sure. And at that time, I’ll gladly roll on some conventional suspension. But it won’t be equivalent functionality to ahc.

<my yearly post to keep our local pundit in food>

Back to the op now.

 

[AnyMal]

The ONLY thing actually bad with ahc is that the ecu is completely locked down. And maybe that there is no true aftermarket (were getting there though). Thatd be pretty much it.

Even then, eventually i will put in-line resistance relays in the sensor signal path that I’ll switch on/off in the cab. It’ll override the potentiometer voltage for a faux high mode, spoofing a lower reading than actual, that can then be driven above the conservative 18mph limit.

Thats my only real complaint.

Outside of that maybe alignments and lifts not being easy to nail, but thats only after modifying it and self induced.

Unless you want to drive around 3” lifted or above, i dont think anything’s touching ahc in the consumer space. Maybe cybertrucks air suspension will be beefier but we will have to see…

 

[Madtiger]

Figured that was coming. I highly recommend you get yourself into a Rover. It’s the same thing of course! Basically exactly the same thing except it isn’t at all, sharing how many common parts? 0.

Go off and price an equivalent suspension system of any make and model to ahc. It must be Height adjustable, 150k maintenance interval. Weight biasing. Crosslinked. Computer linked to the car inputs. didn’t find it? Amirite?

Ok ok. Go price the replacement for your normal suspension. Get the good medium range one. The one many tlc owners do when they add tires. What was it? $2k?

That is about two entire refreshes of ahc- globes and struts. Say 300000 miles of uses. And it still isn’t height adjustable. Or weight biasing, or on the fly adjustable damping, or brake dive preventing. And you have a permanent 2 or 3” lift to raise the cog, so driving dynamics are not as good.

What? You need shock rebuilds to go 300000 miles too? How many? 2 on the cheap ones, 4 or more on the expensive ones? Tack on $2000 more for this conventional suspension.

So the tlc at 300k with a basic lift is $4k. And ahc which has additional utility is $2k at the same mileage.

Oh, you don’t need a lift because you’re running standard size tires and the oem suspension is good enough. that isn’t feature parity with ahc is it? It isn’t height adjustable, it can’t accommodate 35” tires, it doesn’t have adjustable on the fly damping. You still should do shocks though, for 300k. And are you really going to put in oem? answer honestly. nope. $2k for basic ones, but you’ve waited so long. Might as well do stage 5 kings right. $6k. Yep, still less features than Ahc.

Do you think it’s a mistake that the top of the line tlc trim and Lexus models come with ahc? Do you think it might be that Toyota puts their premier suspension on their premier vehicle? Maybe? Maybe?

I do think keeping the Lexus techs up to date on the suspension would be a good idea, but they’ll never see my truck anyhow.

And yes, in 5 to 50 years I won’t be able to get parts, or the computer capacitors will fail, or the lines will rust thru. Stuff gets old and breaks, for sure. And at that time, I’ll gladly roll on some conventional suspension. But it won’t be equivalent functionality to ahc.

<my yearly post to keep our local pundit in food>

Back to the op now.

Ok...I will bite.

AHC vs. stock suspension. You can fit 35"...you can do that with stock AHC? NO. Or do you have to modify it? And what happens when you "sensor lift" it to fit 35"? Your suspension travel goes down and your ride turns to crap. It is like riding on tippy toes all day and having the suspension crash over every bump. Handling turns to crap. AND then you need to flush the system every 30k miles and decrease lifespan of the globes. But all this is obvious because you're operating AHC outside its engineering/safety parameters. No thanks.

And if you do not do the "sensor lift" and just stick to stock AHC, then what do you have? Land Cruiser’s KDSS outperforms it on-road AND off-road.

At your highest stock AHC setting, your approach/departure clearances (even before predator grill) matches that of Land Cruiser 200. BUT, your AHC suspension travel is WORST...the higher you go, the worst it is. And unlike KDSS LC, your HI mode is SPEED limited. So your clearances are limited by speed! Not the case with LC.

And what happens when AHC fails? You're slammed down to the lowest setting at ALL corners. Good luck with your 35s at that point...or even just trying to get it off the trails.

Ever wonder why Toyota has abandoned AHC altogether......except in USA? Heck, Toyota does not even care about AHC much nowadays...see lack of protection on LX600 AHC components. It is literally an after-thought in LX600. Basically, a throw on to satisfy the rich Benjamins who need their grandmas to get into the LX.

AHC is good at 3 things: brake dive, towing (avoiding squat), and letting children and old folks in/out.

And there is no suspension system out there that is as complex to diagnose and as expensive to fix as AHC. You talk about cost...how about those "innocent" Lexus owners who are putting up at least $5-10k in repairs at Lexus dealers every 150-200k miles??? And at least two members here got quoted $30,000+ to fix their AHC at Lexus dealer??!!

 

[AnyMal]

Ok...I will bite.

AHC vs. stock suspension. You can fit 35"...you can do that with stock AHC? NO. Or do you have to modify it? And what happens when you "sensor lift" it to fit 35"? Your suspension travel goes down and your ride turns to crap. It is like riding on tippy toes all day and having the suspension crash over every bump. Handling turns to crap. AND then you need to flush the system every 30k miles. But all this is obvious because you're operating AHC outside its engineering/safety parameters. No thanks.

And if you do not do the "sensor lift" and just stick to stock AHC, then what do you have? Land Cruiser KDSS outperforms it on-road AND off-road. At your highest stock AHC setting, your clearances (even before predator grill) matches that of Land Cruiser KDSS. BUT, your AHC suspension travel is WORST...the higher you go, the worst it is. And unlike KDSS LC, your HI mode is SPEED limited.

And what happens when AHC fails? You're slammed down to the lower setting at ALL corners. Good luck with your 35s at that point...or even just trying to get it off the trails.

Ever wonder why Toyota has abandoned AHC altogether......except in USA? Heck, Toyota does not even care about AHC much nowadays...see lack of protection on LX600 AHC components. It is literally an after-thought in LX600. Basically, a throw on to satisfy the rich Benjamins who need their grandmas to get into the LX.

AHC is good at 3 things: brake dive, towing (avoiding squat), and letting children and old folks in/out.

And there is no suspension system out there that is as complex to diagnose and as $$$ to fix as AHC. You talk about cost...how about those "innocent" Lexus owners who are putting up $5-10k of repairs at Lexus dealers every $150k miles??? Or someone paying $30k to fix his AHC at dealer?

To be fair the entire LX 600 is an afterthought lol.

Also you need to consider on highway LX would be better handling, even if the slalom testing you’ve seen shows kdss to be better behaved on road. A moose test ive also yet to see head to head. If you find ever that id like to see it.

Remember that any testing done on LC vs LX is also hobbled by the poor factory 20” or 21” fitment by Lexus. Its on heavier and skinner wheels that the platform wasnt designed around vs the native LC 18s.

I will be the first to admit there are things i would change if i could, but all around i have yet to see a more capable suspension. If there is one you know i would buy lol.

I do like KDSS a lot too, but adjustable height is just ballin.

 

[TeCKis300]

Looks like you drunk stumbled into an LX thread again. Slurring your anecdotal assumptions that couldn't be more ill informed. Let me help.

AHC vs. stock suspension. You can fit 35"...you can do that with stock AHC? NO

Wrong

Your suspension travel goes down and your ride turns to crap.

Wrong

It is like riding on tippy toes all day and having the suspension crash over every bump. Handling turns to crap.

Wrong

AND then you need to flush the system every 30k miles.

Wrong

But all this is obvious because you're operating AHC outside its engineering/safety parameters. No thanks.

And if you do not do the "sensor lift" and just stick to stock AHC, then what do you have? Land Cruiser KDSS outperforms it on-road AND off-road. At your highest stock AHC setting, your clearances (even before predator grill) matches that of Land Cruiser KDSS. BUT, your AHC suspension travel is WORST...the higher you go, the worst it is. And unlike KDSS LC, your HI mode is SPEED limited.

Wrong

Ever wonder why Toyota has abandoned AHC altogether......except in USA? Heck, Toyota does not even care about AHC much nowadays...see lack of protection on LX600 AHC components. It is literally an after-thought in LX600. Basically, a throw on to satisfy the rich Benjamins who need their grandmas to get into the LX.

Wrong

AHC is good at 3 things: brake dive, towing (avoiding squat), and letting children and old folks in/out.

Wrong

And there is no suspension system out there that is as complex to diagnose and as $$$ to fix as AHC. You talk about cost...how about those "innocent" Lexus owners who are putting up $5-10k of repairs at Lexus dealers every $150k miles??? Or someone paying $30k to fix his AHC at dealer?

Wrong


You might want to learn somethings also about your own KDSS too and where it has limitations. Lookup Dr. KDSS. But it's something that can't be addressed because it's an early gen system.

 

[Madtiger]

To be fair the entire LX 600 is an afterthought lol.

Also you need to consider on highway LX would be better handling, even if the slalom testing you’ve seen shows kdss to be better behaved on road. A moose test ive also yet to see head to head. If you find ever that id like to see it.

Remember that any testing done on LC vs LX is also hobbled by the poor factory 20” or 21” fitment by Lexus. Its on heavier and skinner wheels that the platform wasnt designed around vs the native LC 18s.

I will be the first to admit there are things i would change if i could, but all around i have yet to see a more capable suspension. If there is one you know i would buy lol.

I do like KDSS a lot too, but adjustable height is just ballin.

Figure 8 tests suspension's quick transition......so it is very much a Moose test and then some! It is NOT a slalom test.

In fact, due to LX 21" / 22" rims, LX actually can pull SLIGHTLY better around a circle (aka "G's") than LC on 18" rims in all the tests that I have seen.

So, despite advantages of LX in pulling more G's, LC beats it in Figure 8. Why?

Remember, AHC is reactive. KDSS is pro-active. AHC has many sensors but it still cannot see the road ahead. It has to wait for things to happen before it can respond.

Adjustable is one thing...but adjusting has compromises as I discussed above.

 

[AnyMal]

So, despite advantages of LX in pulling more G's, LC beats it in Figure 8. Why?

Must be that extra 600 lbs in real leather and wood son!!!

Buaallllinnn!

 

[Madtiger]

Must be that extra 600 lbs in real leather and wood son!!!

Buaallllinnn!

damn you...you know where to hit !!! I gotta admit...LC interior looks cheap.

 

[grinchy]

It’s the cookies and espresso machine in the Lexus dealer too, can’t forget that. Not that I would know . . .