New LX-470 Fiasco - Need To Vent (1 Viewer)

[greynolds]

I went by the dealership this afternoon to fill out a bunch of paperwork for swapping to the new LX. I also got to see the white one and return a few things that belonged to the silver one (the cloth floor mats, extra keys, etc.). The new one still has the plastic on the seats and needs a good cleaning (pretty dirty between the ride on the ship and the truck ride from NJ), but I could definitely see that I'll be very happy with the color - I like the ivory interior a lot better than the stone and like the white about the same as the silver. Not sure when I'll be picking it up as they still have to get a bunch of paperwork done - what I signed was needed so they could proceed.

I spoke with the GM about the warranty and the answer is a flat out no - he wouldn't even agree to meet me half way on the price. "Replacing the vehicle is costing us money, blah, blah, blah..." I can see where he's coming from in that replacing the vehicle is costing the dealership money, but the long term benefits of treating the customer right presumably outweigh breaking even or even taking a slight loss on this sale - I find it hard to believe that they'll actually take much or any loss on this (lost profits obviously, but not a bottom line loss). He should have also considered that I've been VERY reasonable for this entire process - I could have justified being at least a bit more belligerent.

Given this, I'm going to wait till I have the replacement vehicle and then cancel a few things I had purchased with the vehicle:

1) Tire / rim warranty. I can either bank the money or get a tire road hazard warranty from a local tire shop for a fraction of the cost. Right from the start, I had been second guessing this purchase - even though it covers the rims, it's grossly overpriced.

2) Prepaid oil changes. This actually would have been a good deal (better than break even) if I were planning on purchasing another vehicle from an Ira dealership as it includes a $250 coupon for the next purchase, but I'm certainly not happy enough at this point to be sure that I'll purchase from an Ira dealership again.

I believe both of these are high profit items and I believe the oil change thing is only if the service is done at their dealership (which would imply I'd be getting all the other service done there too). Both items can be cancelled within 60 days for a pretty small penalty ($25 each, I believe). At least this will stick it to them a bit.

 

[greynolds]

So are you saying the dreaded VIN is

VIN: JTJHT00WXXXXXXXXX

Is it shown on their inventory because it is for sale?

The VIN of the problem 2006 LX-470 is:

JTJHT00W064012954
The vehicle is still on their lot and is not currently for sale - I saw it today when we transfered some of the stuff I had that went with it from my loaner car to it. They cannot sell it until all the paperwork for transfering me to the new vehicle has been finished.

If anyone finds themselves considering purchasing this particular LX, you should find out EXACTLY what has been done with the wiring harness under the steering wheel and what was done to address the air bag warning light issue.

I've updated my first post with a status update and the VIN number so people don't need to search through the thread for the resolution and VIN #.

 

[cary]

I'm sure they will repair the airbag wiring properly using the following procedure:

1) Remove instrument console,
2) Remove SRS warning light,
3) Replace instrument console,
4) Sell to unsuspecting customer.

Alternatively they may just reset the code and then claim when it starts lighting up after someone buys that "oh, thats strange."

 

[greynolds]

I'm sure they will repair the airbag wiring properly using the following procedure:

1) Remove instrument console,
2) Remove SRS warning light,
3) Replace instrument console,
4) Sell to unsuspecting customer.

Alternatively they may just reset the code and then claim when it starts lighting up after someone buys that "oh, thats strange."

I'm pretty sure you're joking, but...

The first option obviously opens them up to a huge liability suit if something goes wrong. The 2nd option gets them back to where they are with me. I know they were bringing in a tech from Lexus to help them with it, but have no idea what the final resolution was (if any). Even with everything that's happened, I'd really be surprised if they resell it without feeling very confident that the problem is fixed. If it were a less critical system or something like a slight vibration, I wouldn't be surprised to see them try to pass it on unfixed, but the air bag system is too important a safety feature to mess around with.

 

[Tinkerer]

<snip>

I believe both of these are high profit items...<snip>

Congrats on finally getting your due replacement vehicle.

EVERYTHING a stealership does is very high profit, in many cases extending to gouge-level profit increased further by stealership deceit.

Remember - oil changes are done by the most inexperienced, least skilled, lowest-paid Techs, in a stealership service dept or any shop for that matter. Is that who you want servicing your new Lexus?

And tire warranties suck, even with road hazard coverage. If a tire qualifies for replacement cost reimbursement, it will be prorated - and only that one tire will be covered. So, with a tire road hazard warranty, you would still have to pay most of the cost of replacing at least two, but in many cases all four tires, if one dies when the group has more than a VERY small amount of mileage. (You don't want to have one brand new tire running with three that are significantly worn. And running two new tires with two worn tires is better than 1+3 but still an undesirable condition. So in most cases, all four should be replaced if one dies, to maintain proper handling/traction/braking balance and relative tire speed balance.)

Too bad the GM is stonewalling the additional request. He is playing the hand of "the deal is signed, close the deal and be done".

I'd just be glad to get the replacement vehicle, undamaged, after the ordeal. And I'd be sure to spread mucho negative word about Ira. Unbelievable that they resisted doing the right thing - stealerships pump so much $ that their lost profit from this one incident probably does not even show up on their beancounters' radar - and it was their fault to begin with. You are the one who lost the use of a new vehicle while it was being negotiated.

Enjoy your new vehicle.

 

[greynolds]

Congrats on finally getting your due replacement vehicle.

Well, I don't have it in my possession yet, but we're finally getting there. It floors me how long it takes them to get paperwork processed. It's probably just getting lower priority so they can process new sales first...

EVERYTHING a stealership does is very high profit, in many cases extending to gouge-level profit increased further by stealership deceit.

Some things are higher profit than others - I would think that warranty related items tend to among the highest profit.

Remember - oil changes are done by the most inexperienced, least skilled, lowest-paid Techs, in a stealership service dept or any shop for that matter. Is that who you want servicing your new Lexus?

Given that I usually don't have the free time to do my own service, I'm going to have to trust someone to do it. The choices are the inexperienced guy at the dealership, a JiffyLube type place, or a local small shop. At least if the dealer screws something up, it's very easy to show that they should have known the correct way to service the vehicle.

Locally, there is another option in a chain called Sullivan Tire that our family has had excellent experiences with over the years - very honest and do the work well. Problem is that they tend to use 3rd party parts a lot of the time (at least for oil filters, brakes, and exhausts), which isn't something I want to do with my LX, at least for now.

If someone has a recommendation for a great small shop in the Billerica/Burlington/Woburn MA area that specializes in Toyota/Lexus (and preferably in their 4 wheel drive vehicles), I'm all ears.

When I had the Land Rover, I found a great guy, who I've remained friends with, who specialized in Land Rovers. It was close to an hour drive each way to get to his shop, but well worth it. Hell of a nice guy, and does impeccable work.

Too bad the GM is stonewalling the additional request. He is playing the hand of "the deal is signed, close the deal and be done".

I'd just be glad to get the replacement vehicle, undamaged, after the ordeal. And I'd be sure to spread mucho negative word about Ira. Unbelievable that they resisted doing the right thing - stealerships pump so much $ that their lost profit from this one incident probably does not even show up on their beancounters' radar - and it was their fault to begin with. You are the one who lost the use of a new vehicle while it was being negotiated.

Enjoy your new vehicle.

The GM is pulling the "this is costing us money" sob story. Well, it's cost me money too in terms of lost time at work taking my vehicle back to the dealership, a high stress level for the past month, not sleeping well, extra gas running back and forth to the dealer, etc. The only freebie they aren't pulling back is the free Red Sox tickets from the GuidePoint installer - gee that really makes up for everything. I'm not even a baseball fan - at least they could offer me hockey tickets so I can go watch the Bruins struggle to make the playoffs (so they can lose in the first or 2nd round).

I'm definitely happy to be getting the replacement vehicle, but Ira has handled this so poorly, that I just can't see myself ever puchasing another vehicle from any dealer within their network. They may have an extensive network of dealers, but they're not the only show in town. Nearly everyone I know is aware of what I've been going through on this purchase, so I'm sure they'll lose more than just me as a customer (or potential customer).

Quality customer service really isn't a mystery or difficult - do the right thing and keep the customer happy. In the long run, the reward is a loyal customer who comes back next time they need something and refers their friends and family. L.L. Bean is a stellar example - some people absolutely abuse their wide open return policy, but they're bursting at the seams in growth because they have such a loyal (and growing) customer base. I never hesitate to purchase something from them because I know that if I'm not happy with it, they'll take it back with absolutely no hassle. Ira could learn a few things from them.

 

[SWUtah]

I've owned 3 Lexus, ES300, SC400, LS400 in Atlanta. One of the nice things about Lexus is that they don't have a inexperienced tech do the oil/filter changes. They are handled by a mechanic, at least in Atlanta. I would reather have the oil/filter done at the dealership while under warranty. If they screw something up and you have the same dealer doing all your service they can't blame it on someone else. They will also wash and vac the vehicle and if you are having other service they give you a new Lexus as a loaner vehicle. You are paying for the "ownership experience" use it. It will also help your resale value since the Lexus network is linked and when you are trading or selling your LX they can quickly check the service history. If you don't like Ira, use another Lexus dealership.

 

[Da Hapa]

Some additional, unsolicited advice.

I used to do a lot of financing for downstream petroleum. That included some Jiffy Lube type operations and operators. I won't get into specifics on a public forum but I will say this. I would strongly recommend that you never, ever, ever take your car, motorcylce, rv, lawnmore or anything else to one of these operations. Never.

Lexus charges more for oil changes than say Honda or even Toyota. But... what SWUtah stated is true. You get the loaner car, car wash, etc. that goes along with that. For me, I also get a comfort level that all maintenance records are easily transferred and that any problems can easily be pointed back at the dealership. Take that for what it's worth.

One way that you can "split the difference" is have oil changes and other non-warranty work done at a Toyota dealership. Since the LX and LC are basically the same vehicle (beware of the AHC fluids), the work is the same. And in my area Toyota's labor rate per hour is dramatically different than Lexus. We did this when we had the 60,000 mile service done on our old RX300 and saved several hundred miles. We have two drivers and three cars so the loaner Lexus isn't that big a deal.

But be forwarned that in our experience, not all Toyota dealers will work on Lexus cars. Don't ask me why, the BS answer I got from Family Toyota here in San Juan Capistrano is concerns over warranty issues. But if you can find a good Toyota dealer, you can probably save yourself some serious change. There must be someone on this board who has a Toyota dealer they trust in your neck of the woods.

Finally... I wouldn't take the Red Sox tickets either. GO ANGELS!!!!!

 

[jjbodean1970]

EVERYTHING a stealership does is very high profit, in many cases extending to gouge-level profit increased further by stealership deceit.

dude, do you work for free or for a non-profit organization? most businesses do exist on a "for-profit" basis. it's called being in a capitalist society. relax a little bit.

 

[Gohawks63]

2) Prepaid oil changes. This actually would have been a good deal (better than break even) if I were planning on purchasing another vehicle from an Ira dealership as it includes a $250 coupon for the next purchase, but I'm certainly not happy enough at this point to be sure that I'll purchase from an Ira dealership again.

I purchased this when I bought my LC. I did the math and figured that the cost was pretty much the same as paying for them individually each time AT THE TOYOTA dealer. Now this is based on the $25 oil changes that Toyota charges. Not sure what Lexus prices are.

The nice extra in my package though is that it also included 4 complete interior/exterior details. You basically schedule it, drop it off in the morning and they do a pretty nice job including wax, and interior shampoo.

I've priced these detailing packages and they typically run about $100-$150.

I usually wait until the spring, after the last snows to have this done.

 

[greynolds]

I purchased this when I bought my LC. I did the math and figured that the cost was pretty much the same as paying for them individually each time AT THE TOYOTA dealer. Now this is based on the $25 oil changes that Toyota charges. Not sure what Lexus prices are.

The nice extra in my package though is that it also included 4 complete interior/exterior details. You basically schedule it, drop it off in the morning and they do a pretty nice job including wax, and interior shampoo.

I've priced these detailing packages and they typically run about $100-$150.

I usually wait until the spring, after the last snows to have this done.

If I don't think I'll ever use the $250 coupon towards the purchase of another vehicle at an Ira dealership, this prepaid oil change package isn't a good deal. Keep in mind that the first (5k) service is free, so that leaves me with the 10k, 15k, 20k, 25k, 30k, and 35k oil changes covered, but I still have to pay for all other service at each interval (or do it myself). Keep in mind that for each service interval, they almost always have a "bundle" price that includes everything for that service interval, including the oil change. At best, I might break even on this, so why not stick it to them and cancel this agreement if I can? It also sends a clear message that I'm seriously considering going elsewhere for service - that's a lot of potentially lost revenue for them over the course of my ownership of the vehicle. There is another Lexus dealership (they're actually a Toyota/Lexus dealer) in the area that is not owned by the Ira motor group - they're a bit less convenient to get to, but I just might give their service department a try.

 

[Gohawks63]

If I don't think I'll ever use the $250 coupon towards the purchase of another vehicle at an Ira dealership, this prepaid oil change package isn't a good deal. Keep in mind that the first (5k) service is free, so that leaves me with the 10k, 15k, 20k, 25k, 30k, and 35k oil changes covered, but I still have to pay for all other service at each interval (or do it myself). Keep in mind that for each service interval, they almost always have a "bundle" price that includes everything for that service interval, including the oil change. At best, I might break even on this, so why not stick it to them and cancel this agreement if I can? It also sends a clear message that I'm seriously considering going elsewhere for service - that's a lot of potentially lost revenue for them over the course of my ownership of the vehicle. There is another Lexus dealership (they're actually a Toyota/Lexus dealer) in the area that is not owned by the Ira motor group - they're a bit less convenient to get to, but I just might give their service department a try.

It sounds like yours is a bit different than mine.

Toyota doesn't offer the free 5K mile service and I also didn't get a $250 coupon good for the next purchase.


My package basically covered 20 oil changes & 10 tire rotations (every other oil change). I believe I paid $540 for this, so doing the math, this is what I get.

My dealership charges $22 for oil changes and $20 for tire rotations for the LC.

$22 x 20 = $440

$20 x 10 = $200

Now add in the four detailing appointments and it was worth it for me. It actually looks like I may be coming out ahead on this, but the benefit to them is that they're assured that they'll be doing the work (since nothing compels me to go there if I didn't buy the package), and they can always try to upsell me on other service that is needed.

There is no time limit on when I can use up the oil changes, so I can do them as frequently as every 3k miles, or I can stretch them out.

Lastly, I never go by the dealership service packages. Typically they call for service much sooner than what is specified in the manual and commonly add in non-value items like inspections (which my dealer does anyway during the oil changes). I always follow the extreme service schedule in the manual.

 

[Tinkerer]

dude, do you work for free or for a non-profit organization? most businesses do exist on a "for-profit" basis. it's called being in a capitalist society. relax a little bit.

Warning: Rant Button has been pressed - results below.

On the one hand, there's profit. On the other hand, there's excessive gouging and willfully lying to customers for wrongful excessive gain at customer expense.

I draw the line at lying. I've been lied to so many countless times by so many dealers trying to screw me that it is obvious this is an endemic pattern with all dealers and their employees.

This lying to customers with intent to deceive them, jerk them around and gouge them- that's the root of the problem. The excessive profits, that are way beyond cumulative value of services, stem from the willful lying with intent to screw customers, plus the actual screwing of customers.

My knowledge of a typical dealer profit flow tells me that they could maintain a prosperous business model with much less profit.

You may say, "well, you don't have to buy from a particular dealer, or even buy at all, if you think they are lying and gouging and you are not happy with that." The problem is that they all do it. You can find a lowest price on a new vehicle by hard bargaining and shopping, but the deceit problem remains. And who else will sell you a new vehicle?

Every disparaging word uttered about dealers is well-deserved, imo. There a few people within dealers that don't lie to customers or try to screw them, but they are a small minority.

And the problems of deceit extend to all areas of dealers interactions with customers - not just gouging. The experience of greynolds is a good example: I don't believe for a second that the GM of Ira did not know the gravity of screwing up a new vehicle's airbag wiring. The GM knows damn well the magnitude of this screwup - and lots of others in the auto industry, the regulatory bodies, and the legal profession know too. Ira tried to screw greynolds on this, to save a couple thou on the bottom line. These kinds of deceitful dealings with customers are multiplied hundreds of thousands of times a week in this country. Not an isolated or unusual case, except in detail.

Or, my own most recent experience with buying brake parts, where the Lexus parts guy tried to convince me that their 40% higher prices were perhaps justified by higher vehicle weight of the LX470 vs. the LC, requiring "special, Lexus-only parts" for the LX. Then he refused to give me the part numbers so I could compare with Toyota parts prices. It's deceit with intent to gouge. (I bought the Toyota parts...)

Many moons ago, I always laughed when I read in Automotive News of the latest CSI (Customer Satisfaction Index) scores of dealers, and how they supposedly wanted to increase their scores. The answer is simple: Quit lying to customers with intent to screw them. Period.

(Rant Done. Sorry...)

 

[jp213a]

Warning: Rant Button has been pressed - results below.

On the one hand, there's profit. On the other hand, there's excessive gouging and willfully lying to customers for wrongful excessive gain at customer expense.

That was a good rant. I agree, capitalism has run amuck. Every type of underhand, lying, cheating, deceitful maneuver seems to be acceptable in the name of PROFIT. Of course, Enron is the post child for unrestrained capitalism. I'm not sure tougher laws will fix it, especially with the multi-national companies that don't answer to any government. I know socialism isn't the answer (the people pretend to work and the government pretends to pay them). In this age, it's "buyer beware" more than ever.

 

[Tinkerer]

That was a good rant. I agree, capitalism has run amuck. Every type of underhand, lying, cheating, deceitful maneuver seems to be acceptable in the name of PROFIT. Of course, Enron is the post child for unrestrained capitalism. I'm not sure tougher laws will fix it, especially with the multi-national companies that don't answer to any government. I know socialism isn't the answer (the people pretend to work and the government pretends to pay them). In this age, it's "buyer beware" more than ever.

Well, it was somewhat cathartic, at least.

Remember: Capitalism can work very well, with great prosperity in general across the spectrum, when people are honest and do not try to deceive others. There are plenty of businesses and professions that provide real value and deal fairly and honestly with customers, yet still reap great rewards.

Dealers are not such a business model, as a rule.

 

[jjbodean1970]

Warning: Rant Button has been pressed - results below.
BLAH BLAH BLAH INCESSANT RAMBLING BLAH BLAH BLAH

i dont even know where to start with this statement, so i wont really bother. your opinion is extremely biased, one-sided, and uninformed.

i'm not gonna hi-jack geoff's thread here; i, in fact, sent him PMs with ideas about resolution (FULL DISCLOSURE) since i have worked for dealerships in the past. when i can go to consumer reports and find invoice on electronics, appliances, etc, and use that info at best buy, lowes, and such, to negotiate my best deal then i will believe that the dealerships are profit mongerers. but they have the decks stacked against them in many cases.

since when did we start going into starbucks and tell them that $4 for a cup of coffee is a tremendous amount of markup and profit? is it fair for the plumber to charge $75 to walk in your door and tell you that you have a leaky faucet? my point is, dealerships exist to make PROFIT. yes, PROFIT. it's not a dirty word. get over it. theyre not the only ones doing it.

 

[greynolds]

i dont even know where to start with this statement, so i wont really bother. your opinion is extremely biased, one-sided, and uninformed.

i'm not gonna hi-jack geoff's thread here; i, in fact, sent him PMs with ideas about resolution (FULL DISCLOSURE) since i have worked for dealerships in the past. when i can go to consumer reports and find invoice on electronics, appliances, etc, and use that info at best buy, lowes, and such, to negotiate my best deal then i will believe that the dealerships are profit mongerers. but they have the decks stacked against them in many cases.

since when did we start going into starbucks and tell them that $4 for a cup of coffee is a tremendous amount of markup and profit? is it fair for the plumber to charge $75 to walk in your door and tell you that you have a leaky faucet? my point is, dealerships exist to make PROFIT. yes, PROFIT. it's not a dirty word. get over it. theyre not the only ones doing it.

I don't think anyone (or at least most of us don't) objects to the dealerships making a profit - even a very healthy profit. It's more about how they go about it. I personally don't like being lied to and Ira has done that to me more than once during the course of this mess I've been working my way through for the past month. It started with the bumper damage (telling me something false while they were figuring out what to do), continued with stories about how the air bag issue wasn't really a problem, continued again with offering me a free extended warranty and 15k service, etc.

As others have suggested, I would agree that the lies even continued with telling me they couldn't find another silver LX, though as it turns out I think I'm actually going to prefer the white with ivory interior - a fortunate turn of events and I'm glad to be getting one fresh off the boat that hasn't been bounced around a couple of dealerships potentially collecting additional abuse along the way.

In the grand scheme of things, especially for a large high volume dealer group, taking an occassional vehicle back and replacing it because of a major screwup on their part AND following through on promises that were originally intended to compensate the customer for the inconvenience costs next to nothing and results in a happy, loyal customer. That's how companies such as L.L. Bean achieve the level of success they have. Sure, the dealerships are making lots of money operating the way they do, but perhaps they'd make just as much, if not more, by treating their customers well and being gracious about fixing problems when they occur. The people who work there may even find they sleep better at night for it, though I'm sure the behavior comes naturally to a lot of them.

As to finding invoice on electronics, generally speaking, the store pays about 50% of the retail price on the medium to expensive equipment, and a somewhat higher percentage on the real cheap (high volume) and super expensive high end (very low volume, such as $100k per pair speakers) stuff. This information is pretty commonly known, even if it isn't published in Consumer Reports.

The thing with "invoice" in the context of a car purchase is that it doesn't really reflect what the dealer has paid for the car as there are lots of other factors involved, such as holdbacks, incentives, etc..... Who knows what the dealer really pays for the car, but you can be sure they almost always make more than a few bucks on a deal, even when they sell at dealer "invoice" - they're not in the business of giving these things away, so it seems obvious to me that they have more than a small amount of wiggle room left at the invoice price.

The problem with your Starbucks and plumber examples is that there are very legitimate alternatives. You can buy your own coffee beans for a lot less than what Starbucks will charge you and brew your own coffee (nearly anyone ought to be capable of doing this). You can buy a book on plumbing and fix your own faucet. The point being that you have very acceptable options to end up with the same (or very similar) end result. Very few people are capable of building their own brand new car (even ignoring the issues of things like crash testing and air bag certification) - you pretty much have to go to a dealership in order to get one. The only alternative is to purchase a used car in a private sale - definitely not the same as buying new.

 

[jjbodean1970]

I don't think anyone (or at least most of us don't) objects to the dealerships making a profit - even a very healthy profit. It's more about how they go about it. I personally don't like being lied to and Ira has done that to me more than once during the course of this mess I've been working my way through for the past month. It started with the bumper damage (telling me something false while they were figuring out what to do), continued with stories about how the air bag issue wasn't really a problem, continued again with offering me a free extended warranty and 15k service, etc.

As others have suggested, I would agree that the lies even continued with telling me they couldn't find another silver LX, though as it turns out I think I'm actually going to prefer the white with ivory interior - a fortunate turn of events and I'm glad to be getting one fresh off the boat that hasn't been bounced around a couple of dealerships potentially collecting additional abuse along the way.

In the grand scheme of things, especially for a large high volume dealer group, taking an occassional vehicle back and replacing it because of a major screwup on their part AND following through on promises that were originally intended to compensate the customer for the inconvenience costs next to nothing and results in a happy, loyal customer. That's how companies such as L.L. Bean achieve the level of success they have. Sure, the dealerships are making lots of money, but perhaps they'd make just as much, if not more, by treating their customers well and being gracious about fixing problems when they occur. The people who work there may even find they sleep better at night for it, though I'm sure the behavior comes naturally to a lot of them.

As to finding invoice on electronics, generally speaking, the store pays about 50% of the retail price on the medium to expensive equipment, and a somewhat higher percentage on the real cheap (high volume) and super expensive high end (very low volume, such as $100k per pair speakers) stuff. This information is pretty commonly known, even if it isn't published in Consumer Reports.

The thing with "invoice" in the context of a car purchase is that it doesn't really reflect what the dealer has paid for the car as there are lots of other factors involved, such as holdbacks, incentives, etc..... Who knows what the dealer really pays for the car, but you can be sure they almost always make more than a few bucks on a deal, even when they sell at dealer "invoice" - they're not in the business of giving these things away, so it seems obvious to me that they have more than a small amount of wiggle room left at the invoice price.

The problem with your Starbucks and plumber examples is that there are very legitimate alternatives. You can buy your own coffee beans for a lot less than what Starbucks will charge you and brew your own coffee (nearly anyone ought to be capable of doing this). You can buy a book on plumbing and fix your own faucet. The point being that you have very acceptable options to end up with the same (or very similar) end result. Very few people are capable of building their own brand new car (even ignoring the issues of things like crash testing and air bag certification) - you pretty much have to go to a dealership in order to get one. The only alternative is to purchase a used car in a private sale - definitely not the same as buying new.

geoff, i like your style. you make very valid points which are well thought out. not like that previous biased ignorant drivel from the other poster.

i hope i am getting my point across about profit not being a bad thing. i get your point about going about it properly. either i have worked at some of the best dealerships in the world or that other poster has experienced some of the very worst. i think most are probably somewhere in between. most businesses are profit-driven. it's a fact of life. one's best alternative to not pay profit is, like you said, to buy a used vehicle from an individual, and, as you also said, this is not an alternative when wanting a new vehicle.

i'm done. you just cant try wasting your time to talk some common sense into some people.

geoff, i hope you enjoy your new lexus. i wish you nothing but excellent service from your new vehicle and from the dealer you choose to preform your service. i know you will enjoy your lx. i just sold my l/c and miss it already.

 

[SWUtah]

geoff, i like your style. you make very valid points which are well thought out. not like that previous biased ignorant drivel from the other poster.

i hope i am getting my point across about profit not being a bad thing. i get your point about going about it properly. either i have worked at some of the best dealerships in the world or that other poster has experienced some of the very worst. i think most are probably somewhere in between. most businesses are profit-driven. it's a fact of life. one's best alternative to not pay profit is, like you said, to buy a used vehicle from an individual, and, as you also said, this is not an alternative when wanting a new vehicle.

i'm done. you just cant try wasting your time to talk some common sense into some people.

geoff, i hope you enjoy your new lexus. i wish you nothing but excellent service from your new vehicle and from the dealer you choose to preform your service. i know you will enjoy your lx. i just sold my l/c and miss it already.

I think motorcycle dealers are about the same. Just bought a new HD Lowrider, the Vegas dealer that owns Vegas, Henderson, and Zion HD, kind of has the Vegas and north NV market covered. Vegas wanted $3500 more then the dealer I bought from in SLC. When I told the Vegas sales guy he went into a rant that HD should pull the SLC dealership because they were selling so cheap. He said I beat the price he would pay Vegas as an employee (by a lot). I just thought it was kind of weird that the sales guy would think that I would agree with him that I bought too cheap (got to good of a deal). I bought for $300 under MSRP and the Vegas dealer on my bike thought I should pay several $KK over MSRP which would be pure profit in what I think is gorging.

 

[greynolds]

I called the dealer this afternoon to see if there was an update. Not sure why they hadn't called yet (well, maybe I am but I don't want to think negative thoughts), but I'm scheduled to pick up the brand new LX tomorrow at 11AM. Hopefully this one will go better than the first one did . I'll post an update after I've picked it up tomorrow.

I'm definitely pretty psyched about finally picking it up, but the fun part of buying a new car has kind of been spoiled by this experience, at least for now. I'm sure once I've had it for a few days, I'll start to put the negative experience behind me, but I certainly don't see myself buying from the Ira Motor Group again.

Thanks to all for the advice, help, and encouragement in dealing with this mess. It's been a pretty frustrating month+, but this forum has certainly helped make it easier.