need HVAC input

[bigndn]

We're looking at buying a home in Eagle, ID. It was built in 1992. The inspection report identifies two things that I am concerned with, everything else is minor and easily mitigated. The HVAC system is a split system.

1) the electric central AC unit's estimated age is 10-15 years and the Goodman (mfg) design life is 7-10 years. "The cooling system is beyond normal life expectancy. Anticipate repair or replacement needs."

2) The Goodman natural gas high efficiency heating unit's est age is 10-15 years and it's design life is 10-15 years. "No elevated CO levels were noted at random registers through the home. The unit was operating normally at the time of inspection, but is rated fair for age. Repair or replacement should be anticipated.Due to age, it is recommended the unit be serviced and evaluated by a qualified HVAC contractor prior to closing as a precaution."

So my questions are:

1) Since these are separate units (the AC is outside, the heat unit is in the laundry room), is it possible or wise to consider installing a high end heat pump to do the work of both?

2) What's the best, most efficient, HVAC home system available nowadays?

3) What should I expect the installed cost to be?

 

[AJP]

With Natural Gas ... at least in my neighborhood ... you are well ahead of the power curve already in getting low priced heat into your home compared to oil, electric or propane. In high efficiency forced air gas furnaces it seems that there are always mixed reviews regardless of what manufacturer you choose. I have a KeepRite high efficiency unit and will eventually replace it - but that is what the local guy installs..

One option that "may" work for you is a gas fired condensing boiler running either hydronic radiant heating or through a heat exchanger using your existing duct. Certainly on a new building they are getting more interest ... not sure about a retrofit although pretty certain their are suppliers in your area that can advise.

 

[Trollhole]

In Idaho I'd stay away from a heat pump unless you go duel fuel. A heat pump will suck in low 20's and below. You will be running heat strips all winter long.

Find out what seer rating is of the old unit. If it's 12 or below plan of replacing it and the freon lines at some point. Goodman is a decent unit. It just doesn't have all the bells and whistles.

As far as your furnace. They can last a long time. I'd have it checked every year but unless it has a problem I'd run it.

What I would do. Go with a duel fuel system right now. Keep your gas unit and add a heat pump to it. Heat pump system is not that much more than a straight A/C unit. Honeywell makes a thermostat that controls everything. It's around 150 or so. This way you get the best of both worlds. Efficiency of a heat pump in the summer and mild cooler weather and gas when it's balls cold.

+ if your heat exchanger has issues you can just switch over to heat pump as an emergency use or vise versa. And 5 or 10 years down the road when the gas unit craps out you can just replace it.


As far as install cost for a split unit replacement. Your looking at 500-1500k for the labor. Depending on location of the unit.

 

[bigndn]

Thanks for the timely responses, guys. I have lined up a HVAC guy to do an inspection and preventative maintenance on the furnace. This is the last hurdle I am aware of!!!

Who is the best manufacturer out there now.....Carrier? Bryant?

 

[Trollhole]

Trane

 

[bigndn]

Trane

In your opinion, is it worth it to spend the extra $$$$ on Trane stuff?

 

[fj40charles]

I have had good experiences with Trane.

If you need a new HVAC unit, be sure to get it installed this year to take advantage of the $1500 tax credit.

 

[se2000]

Why not go ground source heat pump? I had to add air to my electric baseboard home and went all the way with the heat pump. 30% tax credit now

 

[Trollhole]

Ground source are great if you have the money.

 

[splitshot]

Thanks for the timely responses, guys. I have lined up a HVAC guy to do an inspection and preventative maintenance on the furnace. This is the last hurdle I am aware of!!!

Who is the best manufacturer out there now.....Carrier? Bryant?

Amana, but I only fire it up once in the fall to see if it still works (92.1 afue) unit on propane.

After that, it's oak in Vermont Castings for the winter..

 

[ff347]

If you get anything with a variable speed blower motor, get the longest extended warranty that you can. Great idea and very expensive to replace. I don't know if the savings of the variable speed would offset the cost difference and the warranty though in the life of the unit.

A 1/2 hp blower motor (very generally) is anywhere from $85-130 +/- some change, a variable is about 10X that price (last time I checked).

 

[se2000]

Carrier owns Bryant so that is a mute point.

Variable speed blower and 2 stage heat/cool will pay for itself if you are there more than say 5 years. The comfort thing outweighs the savings. Like going from manual control in your vehicle to auto temp control.
You will never go back.

A geothermal system adds upfronts costs but it will pay back in 5 years if you do it right and continue saving for decades. And now I don't need to drag in wood or pellets or coal or oil

 

[Walton]

X2 on the geothermal. Can you tap into a water source? If not, a ground loop is more money in the long run, but will pay for itself eventually.

 

[firetruck41]

Happy with my 2 stage furnace with variable speed blower, and AC unit. I would consider a heat pump instead of just AC though. It is a Goodman, cheap but good, from the research I did before I bought it and installed it. I have had it for about 5-6 years now, and have had one problem, which was a water seeping from the condensation housing, fixed with the turn of a few screws and some sealant. Anyway, just because it's a Goodman, doesn't mean it is a POS or about to fail.

 

[bigndn]

Anyway, just because it's a Goodman, doesn't mean it is a POS or about to fail.

That's not what I meant.......the home inspector wrote basically that both units are 10-15 years old and their service life is 10-15 years, so expect some repairs or to replace them soon.



I don't think we can tap into a water source, there's a lot of irrigation ditches in the area, so there must not be much ground water.
But I will definately consider installing a heat pump instead of the A/C unit. The way I understand it the heat pump works to cool the house and is very efficient at heating until it's around 30 degrees, then the furnace kicks in additionally to heat the house. Does this sound right?

 

[Living in the Past]

Trane is kinda of like Jeep. It has been sold a few times. In the mid eighties Trane bought GE's air conditioning line. This was the unit that gave Trane it's good name. Trane wasn't really anything special before that. Then in the nineties American Standard bought Trane. Now it has been sold to Ingersoll Rand. I have talked to a couple of service techs who work for Trane and they were unhappying about it. It was more about employee pay and benefits than product. These are comercial techs. The home I bought a few year ago has a two compressor American Standard (Trane) unit. To be honest I am not overly impressed. The PO would have gotten a better bang for his buck if he had bought a lower SEER unit and spent the difference on insulation.

While the variable speed motors are more money I don't think its ten times more. But how I see A/C contractors ripping people off I won't be surprised. Helps to have worked in the field and still have a friend with his own business.

If your building a new home hydronic or ground source heat pump are something to look. I thought about replacing my electric furnace with hydronic radiant at my cabin. It is built on a foundation instead of a slab. But trying to do the upstairs would have been a pain. I opted for a cheap R22 13 SEER heat pump with back up strips. The pain of installing compared to the payback wasn't they. I only heat to 45 when it empty and use a stove while I'm there. Trollhole idea of a new furnace with a heat pump is pretty good. Just not sure why you would have to chance the refrigerant lines unless it because you need differant sizes. The 0ld R22 lines should be good with the newer R410A. I don't remember ever see copper tubing wearing out if the lines were properly installed.

 

[Trollhole]

Trane is kinda of like Jeep. It has been sold a few times. In the mid eighties Trane bought GE's air conditioning line. This was the unit that gave Trane it's good name. Trane wasn't really anything special before that. Then in the nineties American Standard bought Trane. Now it has been sold to Ingersoll Rand. I have talked to a couple of service techs who work for Trane and they were unhappying about it. It was more about employee pay and benefits than product. These are comercial techs. The home I bought a few year ago has a two compressor American Standard (Trane) unit. To be honest I am not overly impressed. The PO would have gotten a better bang for his buck if he had bought a lower SEER unit and spent the difference on insulation.

While the variable speed motors are more money I don't think its ten times more. But how I see A/C contractors ripping people off I won't be surprised. Helps to have worked in the field and still have a friend with his own business.

If your building a new home hydronic or ground source heat pump are something to look. I thought about replacing my electric furnace with hydronic radiant at my cabin. It is built on a foundation instead of a slab. But trying to do the upstairs would have been a pain. I opted for a cheap R22 13 SEER heat pump with back up strips. The pain of installing compared to the payback wasn't they. I only heat to 45 when it empty and use a stove while I'm there. Trollhole idea of a new furnace with a heat pump is pretty good. Just not sure why you would have to chance the refrigerant lines unless it because you need differant sizes. The 0ld R22 lines should be good with the newer R410A. I don't remember ever see copper tubing wearing out if the lines were properly installed.

Good stuff. You will most likely have to change out refrigerant lines. Or at least the high side line due to the fact that the higher efficiency units require a bigger diameter line. If they don't change it out make sure you have it in writing from the manufacturer that the lines you are using are correct. As well you will need the installer to clean the r-22 lines out. Mineral oil from a r-22 system will varnish in the lines, compressor, and cause all kinds of issues. If the lines are easy to replace I'd replace them.

Whatever brand you get make sure you get one with a scroll compressor in it. It will last a heck of a lot longer.

Sometimes it can pay to find an company that will work with you. Especially if your handy.

Ask them if you take the old system out or install new copper lines if they will drop the price.

I hated taking the old stuff out. If I could spend 30 minutes talking to a customer telling them exactly what they need to do all the while pulling down the unit (reclaiming the freon) and disconnecting the unit. It would save them a couple hundred dollars. This way all I had to do was install new. Plus it was nice to have the homeowner involved. Especially if they were willing to learn.

 

[bigndn]

I heard an advertisement on the radio last night on the way home, so I called. The skinny is that they will install a new A/C unit and then give you a discount on a new furnace. The tech came out and took a look at everything and then presented me the estimate. He explained to me that our existing units were old and their SEER rating was about 6-7, but the new ones were 13-15, which would result in a decreased power bill

Ultimately, the total was $7950, but the furnace was discounted to $999. Seemed to be a decent warranty, too. The unit he recommended was Lennox.

What say the pros? Good deal or should I contact Trane and Carrier?


Oh, it was these guys.
http://www.serviceexperts.com/Special-Offers.aspx

 

[firetruck41]

Holy crap that seems expensive. Are they installing all new ductwork or something? What size/type/brand are the furnace and condenser/coil? I would definitely call a couple different hvac contractors and get some quotes.

 

[bigndn]

Holy crap that seems expensive. Are they installing all new ductwork or something? What size/type/brand are the furnace and condenser/coil? I would definitely call a couple different hvac contractors and get some quotes.

They'd be using the existing ductwork......and since we have a split level main with a partial basement, and an upstairs, there's quite a bit of ducting thru the 3200 sq ft. All the other information is at home, but it's got to be pretty large to heat/cool that size.