Need help with a misfire issue

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Joined
Aug 1, 2019
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3
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24
Location
Leawood, KS
Hey all, hoping the collective minds on this forum can help with an ongoing misfire issue on my wife's relatively new to us (last summer) 2008 LX 570. 166k miles.

A couple weeks ago, she was backing out of the driveway and felt the car start to shake, CEL came on. Parts store scan indicated P0305 and P0306, misfires on cylinders 5 and 6. Had a mechanic friend of mine come over and replace all 8 plugs, and the ignition coils on 5 and 6.

A day or two later, she was driving it and once again the car started shaking and stumbling, CEL comes back on. This time parts store scan says P0302, cylinder 2 misfire. Couples days later, replace all 6 remaining coils.

She's drives it for a couple days with no issues. However day 3 she starts to notice it misfiring some, but much more subtly and intermittently than before. Misfiring becoming more apparent when under heavier acceleration, with what she described as a "chugging" feeling. No dashboard lights/CEL ever coming on. A few days later I replace the PCV valve because what the hell, why not. Old one was a little gunky but nothing crazy.

It drove pretty good the next day, but the day after resumed the same more subtle yet still misfiring symptoms that were there before the PCV valve replacement. Later that week, we were scheduled to have her car in to a local Indy shop for oil change and were going to have them look into the misfiring issue. I drive it the night before, same subtle misfire/chugging under moderate acceleration. I decide to gun it to see what would happen and boom, flashing CEL, very aggressive misfire the remaining 5 miles home. Next morning, no dashboard lights, drove normal on way to mechanic.

Mechanic cannot recreate CEL, but do notice the misfiring while test driving and say they are able to count misfires on cylinder 2 and only 2. They swap plug/coil with cylinder 4 and the misfire is then present on 4 and only 4. They replace plug and coil on 4. Okay great, maybe just got unlucky with a bad coil. Well...

Drives good for a couple days. Wife reports not noticing any misfiring or chugging. I drive it to pick up kid from day care today, drives great, sweet maybe we've got this thing solved. I give it heavy acceleration getting on the highway and again boom, flashing CEL, aggressive but not quite as aggressive as night before the mechanic misfire. Fortunately I'm right by a parts store. P0305 and P0306 again. Cylinder 5 and 6 misfire. WTF.

Please don't throw anything at me, I did get the Denso coils from Amazon. That said, as a certified novice wannabe mechanic, I am 98.76% sure they are real deal Denso coils. Also, it's way too much of a coincidence that the same 3 cylinders that were reporting misfire issues before, happened to get bad out of the box coils, right? But none of the other 5 did?

Tomorrow I plan to do a side by side of the coil the Indy shop put in with my Amazon Denso coil to see what's what, but I am really doubting that is the issue.

I am hoping someone on here might be able to point me in the direction of what to do next. Or if I am very lucky, my description leads someone to the exact issue. We can dream, right?

Any thoughts or help would be much appreciated!
 
Might be worth looking at fuel or air instead of spark? First thing that comes to mind would be a fuel issue.. either quality or delivery? Is this the same tank of gas, and is it still the original fuel pump?
 
Might be worth looking at fuel or air instead of spark? First thing that comes to mind would be a fuel issue.. either quality or delivery? Is this the same tank of gas, and is it still the original fuel pump?
Fuel pump was replaced in late December. Fuel sending unit had issues, showed she had ~1/4 tank left when she was empty. Decided to replace the whole pump assembly.

Always have used at least 91 octane gas. I did pour a can of Seafoam through the tank, I think after replacing the remaining coils/before replacing PCV valve.
 
It's either fuel-related or valve-train. Since it traveled to other cylinders, I'd lean toward fuel. There's a valve spring failure that a few have experienced but if that was the case it would be isolated to one cylinder. I'm not sure how to advise trying to work through a fuel issue.

Hopefully it'll work itself out. If it's moisture in the fuel Seafoam won't do much so I'd add a bottle of Heet fuel additive and see it helps.
 
It's either fuel-related or valve-train. Since it traveled to other cylinders, I'd lean toward fuel. There's a valve spring failure that a few have experienced but if that was the case it would be isolated to one cylinder. I'm not sure how to advise trying to work through a fuel issue.

Hopefully it'll work itself out. If it's moisture in the fuel Seafoam won't do much so I'd add a bottle of Heet fuel additive and see it helps.
Thank you. I'll add a bottle of Heet this afternoon.
 
Probably irrelevant but thought I'd mention the Check VSC, flashing 4 lo, etc lights have always accompanied the CEL. Wife says it's idling and driving perfectly as of morning soccer mom duties. Still seems to be an only under heavy acceleration thing at this point.
 
Probably irrelevant but thought I'd mention the Check VSC, flashing 4 lo, etc lights have always accompanied the CEL. Wife says it's idling and driving perfectly as of morning soccer mom duties. Still seems to be an only under heavy acceleration thing at this point.
At least in my tiny little brain, worse under heavy acceleration kind of strengthens the fuel thing in my mind. Try that heat thing, and then next tank maybe some Techron and a little highway time. At least at that point you’d be like $15 in the hole before chasing down further.

Potentially worth getting a bore scope (endoscope?) and having a look in your gas tank. If there’s a bunch of small crud getting through the strainer in the tank, it might be jamming up injectors, cycling fuel pressure then clearing it or something.

Sorry not more help.. I typically just try stuff and figure if it gets worse I’m in the wrong place haha. Keep us posted.
 
Fuel pump was replaced in late December.
It also could be fuel pump related. When the engine needs more fuel (during acceleration) it may be getting starved. The replacement might be defective.
 
It also could be fuel pump related. When the engine needs more fuel (during acceleration) it may be getting starved. The replacement might be defective.
Certainly possible. The new fuel pump was sourced from a local Toyota dealer so I wouldn't think so, but you never know.
 
Small update. Had it out for about an hour earlier. Lot of it highway. Pretty subtle misfire (2 or 3 small "chugs") at around 70 mph/1700 rpm 20 minutes or so into the drive. Another series of subtle misfires getting off the highway towards end of the drive. Still nothing noticeable at idle. No CEL or corresponding dash lights.

So it's not exclusive to heavy throttle acceleration, although that still appears to be surefire way to get CEL. Didn't try that today with the whole family aboard.
 
Well, back to square one. Leaving grad party this afternoon it started a little rough, flashing CEL, flashing 4 lo, vsc system etc came on immediately. Rough ride to the parts store, 5/6 misfiring once again. Seemed to be worst in 1000-1500 rpm range while flashing CEL was active, much smoother abover 2000. After turning it off and turning back on at parts store, CEL stayed on but was no longer flashing, smooth 15 minute ride home.

Any thoughts/ideas would be appreciated. Hoping to take this thing on a road trip middle of next week. Though I would bet against that happening at this point!
 
Flashing CEL says it's detected high level of unburned fuel. Thinking through this then, it then appears that it's not necessarily a fuel problem but more a spark related problem perhaps? Attached are the diagnostic steps for a misfire. The first and least intrusive symptom is to check for PCV hose leaks. From there is gets more involved.

It would be ideal if you had a copy of Techstream to monitor this in real-time and it might shed some light on the cause. Without a tool like Techstream, I think you'll be chasing your tail for a while.
 

Attachments

Flashing CEL says it's detected high level of unburned fuel. Thinking through this then, it then appears that it's not necessarily a fuel problem but more a spark related problem perhaps? Attached are the diagnostic steps for a misfire. The first and least intrusive symptom is to check for PCV hose leaks. From there is gets more involved.

It would be ideal if you had a copy of Techstream to monitor this in real-time and it might shed some light on the cause. Without a tool like Techstream, I think you'll be chasing your tail for a while.

Thank you. I replaced the PCV valve and the hose seemed to be in good shape. I am planning to take the truck to a local Toyota mechanic who has Techstream, see if he can figure out what's going on. I'll post updates.
 
Another update. Had the truck over to the mechanic, who was getting misfires on 5 and 6 with CEL, which we expected. He then swapped those coils with 3 and 4, and still got misfires on 5/6 but intermittent and codes were gone. He then pulled the plugs on 5/6, which were in pretty bad shape considering they were practically brand new. Replaced the plugs. Replaced all the coils I got on Amazon with Denso from RockAuto. Ran great in the shop, and on a couple short drives. This was Friday.

Same pattern has now recurred, where it drove well for a day, almost two. But earlier today it started intermittent missing again. Then later, on way home from dinner, did a hard pull to merge onto highway and got flashing CEL. But this time, a couple new codes! P2237 and P2240. Both upstream O2 sensors.

Once again leaving parts store, no dash lights, drove perfect all the way home.

What do we think, is the source of my problems a couple of bad upstream O2 sensors? I think we've officially eliminated plugs/coils. Also, he did a compression test on 3/4/5/6 and and it was very good, 160-165 on each.
 
Multiple codes, multiple systems sometimes point back to a common cause. Is there perhaps a bad ground or corrosion in a harness?
 
It's kinda hard to believe a bad O2 sensor would cause a misfire on a select couple cylinders.

Basically for the two codes you have now, the manual points to changing the O2 sensor (also known as A/F sensor) or troubleshooting the ECM.
 

Attachments

Thank you. I forgot to mention, a cylinder 6 misfire code was included with the two O2 sensor codes. Cylinder 6 specifically is on its 2nd brand new OEM plug, and 2nd brand new Denso coil.
 
Pull the plugs on 5 and 6 and see if they’re fouled again. It’s weird if they were recently replaced but were bad so quick. If they look good I’d agree something else is amiss, maybe a bad ground? If they look bad again then I’m concerned it’s something upstream or in the motor.

You swapped the PCV valve but what else on the intake side could be bad?
 

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