Need help 3b alternator regulator (1 Viewer)

[bj40green]

The problem is: Somebody changed the wire colors or the alternator is not Toyota.
Toyota wire colors are most of the time twofold. A body color and a stripe. Like white/black, yellow/white, black/yellow and so on.
Here is a pic of a 50 Amp Alternator for a B engine.

Do you see the connectors hold down by a clip? Your clip is empty.
So I'm trying to figure out what alternator you have. From there we can figure out the wires. One thing is sure. One of the 3 wires is ground, so 1 down, 2 to go.
Yours looks a bit like this one....

The problem is that I can't remember from which truck this one is.


Good luck,

Rudi

 

[bj40green]

I've checked all the FSM's that I have for BJ's and HJ's with a 3B engine from 1980 and later. NONE of them have RED, WHITE and BLUE wiring.
So, or it's not a Toyota alternator or it's modified by a PO.
This is from the 3B FSM 1980 and later.

If you follow these steps you can figure out which wire is what.

Good luck,

Rudi

 

[dancar]

The problem is: Somebody changed the wire colors or the alternator is not Toyota.
Toyota wire colors are most of the time twofold. A body color and a stripe. Like white/black, yellow/white, black/yellow and so on.
Here is a pic of a 50 Amp Alternator for a B engine.

Do you see the connectors hold down by a clip? Your clip is empty.
So I'm trying to figure out what alternator you have. From there we can figure out the wires. One thing is sure. One of the 3 wires is ground, so 1 down, 2 to go.
Yours looks a bit like this one....

The problem is that I can't remember from which truck this one is.

Good luck,

Rudi

Looks similar to my old alt w ext regulator.








But I couldn't guarantee the the colour code is the same for your pickup.

 

[bj40green]

Here is a lucky shot... the OEM colors on a 50 amp alternator for '79 and later are white / red, white blue and white / black.
Maybe your color code is:
Red = White / red
White = White / black
Blue = White / blue

Does that makes sense?

Rudi

 

[Bidgecleach]

could be but it would be s***ty to fry my new regulator i'm going to try to figure it out with a meter i will let you know if i'm successful thanks for all the help.

 

[lostmarbles]

.....
Here is a pic of a 50 Amp Alternator for a B engine.

Rudi

Hi Rudi.

That's my alternator on my July79 BJ40 and I'd just like to offer a correction in that I believe it is rated at 35A rather than 50A.

(I'm not pretending that I know more than you about alternators - because I certainly don't. It's just that I've had 33 years of ownership in which to accumulate information on this particular cruiser. )

But as far as alternator ratings are concerned, it often isn't straight forward as this thread proves anyway:
https://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series-tech/626293-lucy-landcruiser-bj42-lx-5.html

Here we found 27060-58010 alternator having a 45A output rating on Toyota's database but given a 70A rating by some aftermarket suppliers:





PS. As a sidetrack (and while I accept HJ47/Josh's opinion in that thread as being well-founded and very-likely 100% correct) what's your opinion on whether a smaller pulley is able to increase the overall amp-rating of an alternator?

 

[bj40green]

Hi Tom, sharp as ever! You're right of course. Maybe I should have referred to the 50Amp gauge but that's not important in this case. It was just to show the possible link between the factory wire colors and the wire colors he has on his alternator.

About using a smaller pulley..... People do that to get a bit more charge at idle. With the OEM pulley there is hardly any charge at idle. It's only 2 or 3 Amps, just enough to keep the battery under trickle charge and/or to compensate for the current draw (ignition and cluster). If it's a gasser you can remove the battery without the engine shutting off. As we all know a diesel doesn't need any voltage once the engine is running.

Smaller pully and Amp rating....
The maximum output is determent by the internals of the alternator and not by the rpm's. Once the alternator is making more than 2000 (engine) rpm's the alternator can produce it's maximum output. Food for thought..... the output should be in Watts at a specific voltage and not in Amps, but that's my opinion. I mean, 35Amp at 12V is different from 35Amp at 14.8V (the VR set point).
Back to the pulley. If you use a smaller pulley the rpm's of the alt goes up which leads to a faster wear and tear on the bearings. But..... these same alternators are also used on gassers which make more rpm's than our diesels so I don't think that using a smaller pulley is very harmful for the alternator as long as the smaller pulley is not too small.

Rudi

 

[lostmarbles]

Hi Tom, sharp as ever! You're right of course. Maybe I should have referred to the 50Amp gauge but that's not important in this case. It was just to show the possible link between the factory wire colors and the wire colors he has on his alternator.

About using a smaller pulley..... People do that to get a bit more charge at idle. With the OEM pulley there is hardly any charge at idle. It's only 2 or 3 Amps, just enough to keep the battery under trickle charge and/or to compensate for the current draw (ignition and cluster). If it's a gasser you can remove the battery without the engine shutting off. As we all know a diesel doesn't need any voltage once the engine is running.

Smaller pully and Amp rating....
The maximum output is determent by the internals of the alternator and not by the rpm's. Once the alternator is making more than 2000 (engine) rpm's the alternator can produce it's maximum output. Food for thought..... the output should be in Watts at a specific voltage and not in Amps, but that's my opinion. I mean, 35Amp at 12V is different from 35Amp at 14.8V (the VR set point).
Back to the pulley. If you use a smaller pulley the rpm's of the alt goes up which leads to a faster wear and tear on the bearings. But..... these same alternators are also used on gassers which make more rpm's than our diesels so I don't think that using a smaller pulley is very harmful for the alternator as long as the smaller pulley is not too small.

Rudi

Thanks for that Rudi........

 

[lostmarbles]

I wonder if its not the original alternator the wires coming from mine are white, red and blue, on the regulator cover plate where the posts protrude are a B and an E. The sticker on it is warn off but the regulator part no. is 27700-57060-84 the alt came bolted to an 82 3b 12v it has the vacuum pump on the back. Anyone with the same thing could you tell me what its out of so i can get an electrical schematic.

And sorry for sidetracking your thread Bidgecleach.

I'm puzzled by your "white, red, & blue" colour-coding coming from your alternator too.

I do have a 1983 FJ BJ HJ (combined) diagram that shows an internally-regulated alternator for a European 2F engine. We know for certain which terminal is B on yours, and the other 3 on this 2F alternator are labelled and connected as follows:
F - connected to earth/body/frame
IG - which gets power from turning ignition key, and
L - connected to charge lamp

Somehow I doubt this helps much. But it is an interesting variation on the pic that Rudi posted in post #19 (where he shows an S terminal connected to the B-terminal instead of an F terminal connected to earth).

And I did check your regulator (internal) part number (27700-57060-84) just now and the only landcruisers where I see it was fitted by the factory (as far as I can find) are HJ75 and HJ6# models from Oct 85 to Aug 87. And there I see it's got an 80A rating . And I'm pretty sure the suffix "84" means "remanufactured" too.

And BTW I'd replace that battered noise-suppression capacitor (attached to your B-terminal) because it's very likely to be faulty in that condition and I think it could cause an earth-short from your B-terminal.

 

[bj40green]

Still confused

I'm still confused. I have still no idea if we are talking about an internal IC regulated or a external regulated alternator.
Here are 2 qoutes.....

I need help wiring my regulator it is internal i have a red a white and a blue wire the red wire runs through the case the blue wire gets screwed down with the regulator and is ground i think? help would be much appreciated where does the white wire connect and which wire is ignition and gauge power?

I wonder if its not the original alternator the wires coming from mine are white, red and blue, on the regulator cover plate where the posts protrude are a B and an E. The sticker on it is warn off but the regulator part no. is 27700-57060-84 the alt came bolted to an 82 3b 12v it has the vacuum pump on the back. Anyone with the same thing could you tell me what its out of so i can get an electrical schematic.

So I looked up the regulator 27700-57060 and found this confusing picture.


I did another search and found this picture


So I did a general search and found this


By now I have no idea if we're talking internal or external. But... our friend is talking about a -84 refurbished regulator so that must be an external one. I can't imagine that an internal IC regulator is for sale as refurbished.

Why is this int. or ext. so important? Because when we're dealing with an ext. we're dealing with E, F, and N terminals.
If it's an int. we're dealing with E, S (sense) and or IGN and a L(lamp) terminals.

It's time that our friend Bidge comes up with a good description of the problem plus some pictures of what he has.

Till then I'm going into hybernate on this subject.

Rudi

 

[lostmarbles]

It's definitely internal ... which I think is what "IC" refers to in Toyota's information.



I'm puzzled that an internal regulator would ever be "remanufactured" too.

We probably both are under the same handicap here Rudi in that perhaps "internally-regulated alternators" are too recent for our knowledge-base? (Certainly 99% of my Toyota publications pre-date the introduction of internal regulation.)



PS. Interesting that your search shows it used in more landcruiser models than mine. Perhaps that's because I searched only on the "General Market".

 

[bj40green]

It's definitely internal ... which I think is what "IC" refers to in Toyota's information.

View attachment 692129

I'm puzzled that an internal regulator would ever be "remanufactured" too.

We probably both are under the same handicap here Rudi in that perhaps "internally-regulated alternators" are too recent for our knowledge-base? (Certainly 99% of my Toyota publications pre-date the introduction of internal regulation.)



PS. Interesting that your search shows it used in more landcruiser models than mine. Perhaps that's because I searched only on the "General Market".

Tom, IC means: Integrated Circuit. Electronic components (resistors, capacitors, transistors, diodes et cetera) on a pertinax? board.

Rudi

 

[lostmarbles]

Tom, IC means: Integrated Circuit. Electronic components (resistors, capacitors, transistors, diodes et cetera) on a pertinax? board.

Rudi

Aha! Thanks for that Rudi.

Still .... since I don't think Toyota ever made IC external ones .... I'm still confident we are dealing with an internal regulator.

 

[bj40green]

Tom, to explain it a bit further..... In the 60's and early 70's an IC was a circuit sealed in a housing with a few connections on the outside like the IC regulator you showed in post #31.
Later (in the 80's and 90's), when the parts were much smaller, they managed to put hundreds and later thousands of components in a little black housing. This black thing is commonly known as IC.


Back to hybernate,

Rudi

 

[Bidgecleach]

As i said before this alternator is internal. I bought the reman regulator from toyota as well as the brush holder. There was only one brush holder and 2 regulators in North America according to toyota. I found this picture on ebay and it looks like it has the same red,white,blue wire combination as well as the same plug.

 

[Bidgecleach]

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Landcruiser-...h=item2ec300dbd2&vxp=mtr&_uhb=1#ht_2094wt_906 link to the ebay page

 

[lostmarbles]

And here's some more pics of what looks like the same alternator.

(In the above pic I've shown where it looks like the colours go to.)





Link: http://ishop2.cooldrive.com.au/


We must surely be able to work it out from this?

The plug type is EP104 and all we need is the pin layout for it?

Rudi? Help!

 

[lostmarbles]

Does this help us here? Is it the one on the left?



Nah .... Don't think so ... The plug shape is wrong...

 

[lostmarbles]

OK. Here we go again ......




From this thread:
https://forum.ih8mud.com/70-series-tech/467466-quick-alternator-plug-question.html

WhaDaYa think Rudi/Bidge?

Still not much help I guess!



Hey. Why not PM AndrewJ because he asked exactly the same question as you have here I think:
https://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tech-24-volts-systems/527776-3b-alternator-plug-wires.html

Blue appears to be S (except for in post #1 you say "it gets screwed down with the regulator and is perhaps the ground? ... which contradicts this identification.)
He was going to try White as IG and Red as L I believe. So perhaps (assuming Blue really is S) you just need to see if it worked for him. This would correspond to "Type3" in the Brise image I posted. And from what I read off threads, it looks like Toyota may have swapped around the IG and L positions and denoted the change with a change of connector colour? (Green for one and black for the other?)

Another problem here is that Fig 9-5 in post #12 doesn't seem to agree with the above pin/colour identifications. But then Toyota often doesn't take much care in getting the pin/terminal locations correct in such images from my experience.

So even though I already have a lot of time invested in this thread .....I probably should go back and delete all my posts from it because I'm really not taking you forward! (although at times I thought I was LOL)

 

[bj40green]

Tom,
I say: open up the alternator and look for wire/terminal markings or follow the wires to the place of origen, look up the regulator and you're there.

<This text is edited>
Why? Because the 1st alternator in those 2 threads you refer to don't look like the alternator Bidge has. Look at the B stud and the connector holder.
The 2nd one may be it but I have to figure that one out. </EDIT>

This is the 1st pic of Bidge in post #17> This is the alternator with the wire question.


In post #37 he claims it looks like this one.

I found this picture on ebay and it looks like it has the same red,white,blue wire combination as well as the same plug

Sorry, but I don't see those wire colors.

I'm more and more confused .

Rudi