I think you will be fine when it is all said and done. I know of one guy who had a new frame swapped on his Tacoma and they did a good job. Good luck.
My new 2005 LC frame problem (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter a990dna
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Jim_Chow
V8_Fan
Here's a guy on club lexus who's LX was hit head-on in the right front wheel by a honda @ 55mph. Tweaked the frame (a few mm out of spec). They replaced the entire frame. You might try contacting him about the outcome, whether he can notice any difference after the body was removed, etc.
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251022
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251022
- Thread starter
- #63
Yea, the lawyer I contacted actually did more than I expected ... he reviewed the entire case and called a frame expert... the expert said replacing the frame isn't such a big deal -- its more about the techs that do the work.
He didn't charge me a dime either... he also said I probably can find a lawyer that would take the case but the outcome would essentially be the same. The state certified appraiser/arbitrator had a lot to say as well... he claims the only way I'd get a "buyback" decision would be to prove or convince an arbitration panel or judge the vehicle isn't safe to drive.
The vehicle needs to be fixed regardless.. I can't sell it or trade it in without disclosure. The SM wants me to call the prez of Longo again to discuss the matter -- with the thought he can put some pressure on Toyota to work a deal.
A voluntary or mandated buyback would force Toyota to give me close to full value... plus the cost to replace the frame. They would also have to tag the vehicle as a lemon -- it would never sell.
My preference would be to work a trade-in deal and get a '07 with AHC as a replacement -- of course it's all predicated on concessions with Longo and Toyota. If that doesn't work I may have to pursue other options.
We'll see.
He didn't charge me a dime either... he also said I probably can find a lawyer that would take the case but the outcome would essentially be the same. The state certified appraiser/arbitrator had a lot to say as well... he claims the only way I'd get a "buyback" decision would be to prove or convince an arbitration panel or judge the vehicle isn't safe to drive.
The vehicle needs to be fixed regardless.. I can't sell it or trade it in without disclosure. The SM wants me to call the prez of Longo again to discuss the matter -- with the thought he can put some pressure on Toyota to work a deal.
A voluntary or mandated buyback would force Toyota to give me close to full value... plus the cost to replace the frame. They would also have to tag the vehicle as a lemon -- it would never sell.
My preference would be to work a trade-in deal and get a '07 with AHC as a replacement -- of course it's all predicated on concessions with Longo and Toyota. If that doesn't work I may have to pursue other options.
We'll see.
I bet if this was a LX and you were dealing with Lexus you would already have a new vehicle.
- Thread starter
- #66
e9999 said:
I've been thinking that as well, but what can I do?...
there's only been one repair attempt and it hasn’t been in the shop for 30 days or more to pull the lemon law trigger. In addition, Toyota claimed and documented its not a safety issue which I can't confirm without a major front-end collision -- its a noise with no visible cracks at this point.
That's why I decided to document mileage, order the $5K frame and get it delivered to the dealer... doesn't mean I have to give them my vehicle. Its expensive and takes up a lot of space. My guess is they can't transfer costs to Toyota until the vehicle leaves the lot upon customer acceptance.
Maybe this way it will get escalated within the Penske and Toyota organizations. In the meantime I need to get several trade-in estimates to support diminished value and the "being screwed factor" -- with the slight hint I've been advised to get the media involved.
I don't want to threaten because they'll dig in with their corporate attorneys.
SWUtah I agree, if was a Lexus dealer this would've been resolved by now with a buyback... its a combo Toyota/Lexus dealer so I'm hoping for the best.
Thanks again for all the input, suggestions and support!
- Thread starter
- #67
BTW the SM offered some valuable insight relative to a frame replacement -- in essence it opens a can of warranty worms.
Jim_Chow
V8_Fan
It says the stiffeners (which sound like the layers in your frame that are making the popping sounds) keep the front end from folding up in a collision. That sounds like a safety issue to me. It could be as bad as driving a vehicle w/ faulty airbags. The car may still be 'safe to drive,' but safety in a frontal impact might be compromised.
"Kondo's team completely re-engineered the FJ80's ladder frame, adding three extra crossmembers (now nine) and beefing up the side rail structure. Each crossmember is set into the rails using new bracketry, which Toyota calls a flared-flange-type joint (see Illustration). Frame rail wall thickness has been increased to 3.2mm, and the boxed rails include internal stiffening plates welded within their front 48 inches. Kondo claims this helps maintain frame integrity during a frontal impact, keeping the front end from "folding up" into the passenger compartment."
- Thread starter
- #69
Jim, yes I saw this in SWUtah post this morning... very timely and may work to my advantage -- I went to that Web site and made a PDF of the article. I plan on sending another letter to Penske and attach this as reference.
I personally believe the integrity of the frame has been compromised... but as we all know without support data, its just another opinion.
I also went to a few dealers today to get trade-in value.. I disclosed the defect. A Chevrolet dealer said they were surprised Toyota didn't give me a new vehicle -- and said GM would have bought it back, no questions. He also noted I need to be careful if the frame replacement affects the Title and or possibly CarFax. If that's the case I was told a frame replacement could reduce the value significantly -- he said I should confirm with Toyota.
I have some more leg work to do..
I personally believe the integrity of the frame has been compromised... but as we all know without support data, its just another opinion.
I also went to a few dealers today to get trade-in value.. I disclosed the defect. A Chevrolet dealer said they were surprised Toyota didn't give me a new vehicle -- and said GM would have bought it back, no questions. He also noted I need to be careful if the frame replacement affects the Title and or possibly CarFax. If that's the case I was told a frame replacement could reduce the value significantly -- he said I should confirm with Toyota.
I have some more leg work to do..
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- #70
Funny thing happened today... dealer called and wants me to sign the repair order to initiate the P.O. for the frame -- I told them they need to get the signature from the Toyota Customer Care Manager because I'm not authorizing the frame replacement -- she simply told me to go to court if I didn't like the decision.
Why should I be liable for potential future damages.
Everything is on hold now... I wonder if they're reading this thread?
Comments?
Why should I be liable for potential future damages.
Everything is on hold now... I wonder if they're reading this thread?
Comments?
It's your car, you authorize someone to touch it... not anyone at Toyota or anybody else.
Are reluctant to sign because you got nothing in writing regarding responsibility for repair costs? If so, I can understand that.
Are reluctant to sign because you got nothing in writing regarding responsibility for repair costs? If so, I can understand that.
At this point I would take it to a Lexus dealership and trade for a LX470, not telling them of your frame problem. I would then in writing inform Toyota of the problem you feel the vehicle had and your displeasure with their lack of response. You have now set-up their future liablity if this car gets someone killed in a accident.
- Thread starter
- #73
SWUtah -- I would but it's a $20K loss .. I paid $60K for the vehicle.
What was Toyota's earnings last year?
What was Toyota's earnings last year?
Ouch!!!! Then I guess I would take the information you have on how the reinforcements inside the frame makes it safer in a wreak and how yours are loose and moving around and can't be fixed and have your lawyer put it in a letter to Toyota corp. and also to the NTSA stating how this is a safety issue since your frame is compromised based on a design issue and the fact that replacing the frame affects the resale value of your LC and based on these two issues you want a new LC. Good luck.
If they think it's so great, ask Toyota / dealer to give you a statement in writing guaranteeing that the frame replacement will be fully safe, that they take responsibility for the safety of the repair wrt to any damage to you or others and they will warrant it and the rest of the vehicle fully for the time of the original warranty and then some for your trouble.
IOW, put the onus on *them* to show that it's safe etc...
I bet they won't but then they're in trouble...
IOW, put the onus on *them* to show that it's safe etc...
I bet they won't but then they're in trouble...
- Thread starter
- #76
Yep, a meeting with the dealer and Toyota is in order before proceeding... at least I have a repair order with good intentions in hand... what to do with all this new information.
BTW Toyota's fiscal accomplishments:
Jim_Chow
V8_Fan
Time to contact the attorney again and ask about the safety implications/liability and the diminished value of the vehicle due to frame replacement. Even if you lost $20K in trading in for a LX, you'd probably lose more value after a frame replacement.
Bingo: Do you trust the dealer techs to produce a result as good or better than factory? (No way I would trust them - see my account of the tire balancing job earlier in the thread...)
Also, think about this: What if the replacement frame has a signficant defect? (Not likely, but neither was the original defect...) Any time an assembly leaves the defined assembly process and enters a non-standard manual process, the opportunities for errors & defects increase. The replacement frame is more likely to have significant defects than frames that stay within the mfg process.
Good luck with your experience - sincerely. It could turn out OK.
x2.
The vehicle won't be worth anything close to book value right after the work is done. If you could choose between 2 identical vehicles at the same price, one with a replaced frame and one without, which would you choose?
It will get closer to book value over time, as the repair has stood up to years of use. But I would guess that's a few years, at least. The same thing happens with airplanes that are damaged in gear-up landings. Repairs are made, there's a ding in the value, but it becomes less over time as someone else has assumed the risk of flying it and proving that the repairs were adequate.
So sorry that you're getting dragged through all this. Have you tried telling the dealer that you could have bought a Range Rover if you wanted major quality control issues? I know that's hitting below the belt, but whatever might work.....
