Let's Talk EVs (1 Viewer)

[NCFJ]

There has been some talk in a couple threads about EV related topics so I thought that I would start a thread. All things EV related.

I look forward to the wave of new EV muscle cars along with classics being converted to EV. I think that the next 5-10 years will make what they are doing with EVs now look like the stone age. I believe this mostly because the amount of money being put into EV development around the world is incredible, everyone wants to be the one to make the breakthrough discovery and get it to market first. I personally hope it comes soon enough that I can build something cool with an EV drive train. My favorite vehicles are between 65 and 69 so maybe a 66 Malibu that sits low, has a canyon carving suspension and say 500 HP in EV power.


This is pretty cool.

The Electric Muscle Car Era Arrives With Dodge’s New Charger Daytona SRT Concept

The prototype is the best preview yet of the future of “electrified muscle.”

www.yahoo.com

 

[NCFJ]

GM is also working on a Connect & Cruise version

 

[rugbypike11]

It will be interesting to see if electric batteries ultimately win out for the next generation fuel over hydrogen. The IDEA of electric Land Cruiser conversions is pretty cool, but we still have a long way to go on range and affordability before we see them become common.

I was hoping there would be some easing of propane and CNG conversion kits in the US as a stopgap conversion measure, as those fuels supposedly have less CO2 emissions than petrol gasoline. From what I've read, it's a pretty common conversion to propane in certain parts of the world. I did a halfassed skim of the Inflation Reduction Act and I only saw stuff for zero emissions vehicles and didn't really see anything for propane/CNG conversions..

 

[weejub]

My question is . . .what is going to replace Diesel? Until we can power tractors, Semi's etc, I think we are kinda toying with it, which is cool/fine, but that will be the giant leap forward. I think I'll be dead before that happens.

 

[fourtrax]

the power grid has trouble heeping up with the current demands. how are they going to charge all these EVs?

 

[lt1fire]

EVs are the future.... plain and simple. It's actually a pretty exciting time to live in.
As technology keeps going its only going to get better. The question is are we going to try and be a leader in the new world or not. In the US there is almost a allergic reaction in some groups when so called "green" energy is talked about. At one point America was the leader and top new technology producer for solar panels/power. We have pretty much given the future of that to the Chinese at this point. Hell they are also driving more EV tech as they buy more than any other country.
The cost to own an EV is already attractive. My neighbors tesla costs right around $5.50 to charge up from almost empty to a 272 mile range from their house. Right now the cheapest gas within a 20 mile radius of me is $3.99 and diesel is $5.10. For me to get the same range in a band new camry it would cost around $36. In our MDX around $60. The cost of a new Tesla isn't cheap but neither is a loaded bmw. Hyundai EVs, Chevy EVs they can be had for toyota corolla prices.
It's good motor sports are getting in on the act as that will drive tech faster and faster.
I imagine the next car we buy that is actually a large purchase will be an EV. I came damn close to buying a 2013 model S a few months back. 25k seats 7, 268 mile range and had free transferable supercharging for life. (That's what the tesla charging stations are). Only thing that stopped me is we are going to be uprgarding and selling our house in the next year so I didn't need a financed car right now.

My question is . . .what is going to replace Diesel? Until we can power tractors, Semi's etc, I think we are kinda toying with it, which is cool/fine, but that will be the giant leap forward. I think I'll be dead before that happens.

Simple answer EVs. Tesla, Walmart and about a dozen other county's world wide already have EV semis that are in the testing phase. Electric motors are torque monsters. Recently saw a ripian completely destroy an amatuer class at a diesel sled pull day. Completely stock. I don't think the tech is there to quite yet for a ev semi fleet and most would be local routes at first but it will get there.

the power grid has trouble heeping up with the current demands. how are they going to charge all these EVs?

We will upgrade. America is great at rising to challenges in the past. Hell we showed the world how to build electrical grids in the large scale to start with. Highway system, new deal etc.... we used to be able to do these massive projects to shore up.our infrastructure. These days it would be hard with how divided the country is but I believe we could easily do it. Some states are already pretty well set up for an upsurge.

Do I think this means ICE vehicles are going to disappear? No but as technology advances and becomes cheaper more and more people will be staring at a LS swap but sideways glancing at an EV swap. And eventually the reverse will be true.
Dodge planning on making all their muscle cars EV is a step in that direction.

 

[Hokie LX]

Here are my personal thoughts on EVs

I work in semiconductors (silicon and silicon carbide) and every single automotive company on the planet is currently developing or testing EVs even if they aren't saying so. I have since moved to management so I'm less involved in the day to day but prior I was heavily involved in new product development and working with customers to meet their needs and help with their issues during testing/development and some of the things in the works are truly wild! Much of which I sadly can't talk about.

EVs are coming and will definitely be an offering all over the world but I think the two biggest challenges will be the grossly inadequate power grid and the battery technology. I don't see EVs taking over ICE's until we really have a next generation battery technology and a revised grid. My dad works for a company that is working on the issue of the grid and EVs charging. They have loads of data from industry experts that we have talked about and its eye opening how low of a percentage of EVs are needed to likely crash the grid in a medium or larger size city (something in the single digit % of drivers).

Keep in mind also, there's two infrastructure conversations going on right now. Charging infrastructure as well as general electrical grid infrastructure. The improvements in charging speed through use of silicon carbide chips in the charger and inverter have massively helped the appeal of EVs but the flipside to this is that these fast chargers take an even greater toll on the grid. Both are far from adequate to support any real adoption currently. My guess is that EVs are still a ways off from mass adoption. In my mind, we are currently in the first real iteration of EV development on a industry level and it'll likely take a few iterations of improvements before adoption becomes widespread.

 

[fourtrax]

I saw something where they looked at the flow of petro in one pipeline and converted that to BTU's then KW and we are going to need multiple hundreds of nuclear power plants to replace this one pipe line. I know they are coming i just don't think people are looking forward enough, the permitting alone for the last nuclear plant took 9 years to get approved. It is going to be a slow transition until better technology is discovered.

 

[weejub]

Simple answer EVs. Tesla, Walmart and about a dozen other county's world wide already have EV semis that are in the testing phase. Electric motors are torque monsters. Recently saw a ripian completely destroy an amatuer class at a diesel sled pull day. Completely stock. I don't think the tech is there to quite yet for a ev semi fleet and most would be local routes at first but it will get there.

I am imagining this vehicle unlike a current tractor:

It has like a top that is a shade and a solid solar panel(s). It has a frame for pulling. Built around that frame are a bunch of hydrogen cells and a s***-ton of batteries. It is un-manned. It has 4 electric motors each powering one wheel.

All that tech is already here.

My Uncle controls his sprinkler's with his phone. The 3-point hitch makes micro-adjustments for planting and doing rows based on lasers and GPS and other stuff.

I just need to understand the "math" on the economics before I can believe it will happen in my lifetime.

 

[clrussell]

Watching..

I too hope to do an EV swap in the next 10 years. I had originally wanted to do an LS swap but why not go in a different direction.

 

[open country]

I'm interested in EVs personally. Sure, I like driving noisy, inefficient things that have character (my 60) but most of my A-to-B driving is traffic light to traffic light and not at all in the "spirit" of enthusiast driving. If EV's can accomplish that purpose at a justifiably low cost, while saving ICE vehicles for enthusiast/"special occasion"/and long road trip drives, I'm on board in theory. I get a lot of satisfaction from "the right tool for the job" and an EV econobox seems to be that for piddling around town listening to a podcast.

I don't think Americans will easily get behind a "shared vehicle" concept, where you pay for transportation but don't necessarily own your car (autonomous EVs circling the roads like Ubers that you could summon), but that's a long ways away if at all. So for now, it's still individually owned cars with lots of parked down-time. We also won't be giving up our legacy-owned ICE cars, so I don't see a mandate removing ICE vehicles from the road passing either. So I still figure 10+ years or more of ICE and EV sharing the road together.

I'm transitioning from full work-from-home to office 3x a week, and would need approximately 20 miles a day for commuting, plus some margin of error for errands, unplanned stops, extreme conditions, etc. So say 50 miles of range to be comfortable, assuming I plug in at home every night. If I could find a used EV + install costs for a home 240v charger setup for sub-10k, I may be pulling the trigger. Right now, even highly used Leafs are rarely under that cap and are struggling to hit 50-60 miles after degradation on their early batteries. The BMW i3 I've also considered but it's just too ugly for me and I'm not a fan of the rear half-doors for kids.

 

[onemanarmy]

will the electric Chargers and Challengers be driven by inconsiderate wastes of space too?!

asking for a friend.

 

[roadstr6]

EV's are fun to talk about, but I am not convinced that EV's are really all that much better for our environment. I feel like EV's are just shifting the emissions away from the tailpipes of internal combustion engines and onto the producers of electricity.

EV's contain (on average) 800 lbs of plastic. Plastic is made from petroleum.
EV tires are a petroleum product.
The roads that EV's drive on are a petroleum product.
EV batteries require pollutant mining of lithium, cobalt, manganese, nickel and graphite from sedimentary rock using sulfuric acid or by brining.
The mining of these materials is often done in areas of the world with terrible reputations for labor abuse (China, Russia, Congo, etc.)
The manufacturing of EV batteries produces 60 percent more CO2 emissions than the manufacturing of internal combustion engines.
Production of a single Tesla battery creates 23,000 - 32,000 pounds of carbon emissions...roughly the same amount as driving a typical gas-powered car for three years.
The best EV battery warranty I have seen is 8 years/ 100K miles. How many years / miles has your internal combustion engine lasted?
65 percent of electricity used to charge EV's is generated by burning coal or natural gas.
The rest is comprised mostly of nuclear-generated power, with wind, hydro and solar making up a minority.
Nuclear power plants produce nuclear waste that is bad for the environment.
Solar panels require a lot of the same mining as EV batteries, with China being the major manufacturer.

Food for thought....

 

[GLTHFJ60]

Just gonna put this here. Everything we buy takes resources from the earth, but EVs put out less emissions in their lifetime than ICE vehicles. That will only get better over time as renewables grow their generation share.

Electric Vehicle Myths | US EPA

Facts and myths about electric vehicles.

www.epa.gov

 

[Hokie LX]

Just gonna put this here. Everything we buy takes resources from the earth, but EVs put out less emissions in their lifetime than ICE vehicles. That will only get better over time as renewables grow their generation share.

Electric Vehicle Myths | US EPA

Facts and myths about electric vehicles.

www.epa.gov

Good article

EV's are fun to talk about, but I am not convinced that EV's are really all that much better for our environment. I feel like EV's are just shifting the emissions away from the tailpipes of internal combustion engines and onto the producers of electricity.

EV's contain (on average) 800 lbs of plastic. Plastic is made from petroleum.
EV tires are a petroleum product.
The roads that EV's drive on are a petroleum product.
EV batteries require pollutant mining of lithium, cobalt, manganese, nickel and graphite from sedimentary rock using sulfuric acid or by brining.
The mining of these materials is often done in areas of the world with terrible reputations for labor abuse (China, Russia, Congo, etc.)
The manufacturing of EV batteries produces 60 percent more CO2 emissions than the manufacturing of internal combustion engines.
Production of a single Tesla battery creates 23,000 - 32,000 pounds of carbon emissions...roughly the same amount as driving a typical gas-powered car for three years.
The best EV battery warranty I have seen is 8 years/ 100K miles. How many years / miles has your internal combustion engine lasted?
65 percent of electricity used to charge EV's is generated by burning coal or natural gas.
The rest is comprised mostly of nuclear-generated power, with wind, hydro and solar making up a minority.
Nuclear power plants produce nuclear waste that is bad for the environment.
Solar panels require a lot of the same mining as EV batteries, with China being the major manufacturer.

Food for thought....

This isn't in direct response to you Dave but more of just general ramblings on the topic.

The efficiency and energy usage margin is there but it's not massive like some may believe, at least today. This is a huge focus in the industry currently. I know my fair share of folks who think that EVs put out zero emissions and therefore are "clean" as they don't understand the manufacturing process or power generation. EVs do have a lower overall energy usage/emission when you look at a life cycle assessment over say 15 years. We did this exact LCA in school when I was getting my minor in green engineering and even then, the EV won out but the margin was smaller back then. Silicon carbide semiconductor's biggest advantage over silicon other than smaller size is the dramatic increase in efficiency. As this tech develops further we will see more efficient power generation from renewables, more efficient power transfer for charging and more efficient usage by the motors. All of which makes the watt go farther which will help this equation. One thing that is happening is more OEMs and manufacturers moving to recycled materials for their interiors. Polestar, VW, and BMW are or have used these materials to replace plastic in their vehicles which will help with plastic usage. Seats, dashboards, trim pieces, etc.

One of the reasons why I think a new battery technology will be needed for mass adoption is because current EV batteries aren't recyclable. Yes you can pull cobalt and maybe some nickel out of them once their scrapped but they aren't really recyclable on a large scale so most of it is waste. I believe there will need to be a new generation battery or power source developed to power EVs that can be recycled or doesn't use as many previous metals as current offerings. Like you said, mining all of these materials for the batteries and motors isn't clean nor sustainable long term if the usage increases exponentially with mass adoption.

The one thing I hate about Tesla in particular is their lack of serviceability for anyone other than themselves. There are a few individuals/shops out there who do it but not many. If a single cell in a current EV pack dies, the whole thing is replaced. There are some developments of folks who are servicing these themselves to replace the dead cell without scrapping the entire pack which is great. Hopefully as more EVs come along, manufacturers will allow their vehicles to be more serviceable to encourage these types of repairs.

 

[NCFJ]

My "issue" with EVs is the full court press the government is putting on them. Car companies claiming all electric by this date or that. Pretty brave considering we are only in the baby steps part of the entire process. As pointed out already even if EVs were already developed to a pinnacle we still do not have the grid to support that much draw. The government along with others push EVs like they are the magic bullet. I think something Chris said is part of the governments plan, "I know my fair share of folks who think that EVs put out zero emissions and therefore are "clean" as they don't understand the manufacturing process or power generation." They count on that ignorance to push their plan.

I do not currently look at them as a solution to our problems. I look at them as a very cool alternative platform to what we currently have and perhaps, just perhaps, when the technology far outpaces what we are using now it will actually lead to a much cleaner planet. In the mean time, a cool classic with a GM Connect & Cruise E package, I think I can wrap my head around that. Can't see me buying an EV from a manufacturer, not at this point at least.

 

[open country]

EV's contain (on average) 800 lbs of plastic. Plastic is made from petroleum.
EV tires are a petroleum product.
The roads that EV's drive on are a petroleum product.
The mining of these materials is often done in areas of the world with terrible reputations for labor abuse (China, Russia, Congo, etc.)

Good points, but these are all true for ICE vehicles as well (I don't think EV's have substantially more plastic than the average new car?), with petroleum producers not having a squeaky-clean history in labor and environmental exploitation.

A common argument against EV's is the environmental production and electricity generation cost, and if that is to be apples to apples, you also have to look at the fuel production cost per ICE vehicle useful life as well - oil exploration, drilling, refining, transportation, etc. Not to mention global environmental disasters like Valdez, Deepwater Horizon, etc. When looking this way, EV's still come out ahead. EVs also accomplish a drastically greater thermal efficiency with the energy they need to operate.

65 percent of electricity used to charge EV's is generated by burning coal or natural gas.
The rest is comprised mostly of nuclear-generated power, with wind, hydro and solar making up a minority.

These are also intertwined with electric usage as a whole for people's overall power needs, which needs work across the board.

I think if the first wave adoption of EVs continues to be private ownership for people with consistent use-cases (commute, errand, home, repeat) that charge overnight at home, the grid can handle a night-time load of home chargers. I think it's when we are alongside/replacing gas stations with high-voltage rapid chargers at large scale, particularly in hot climate summers, it becomes a big problem.

 

[izzyandsue]

I think it is the future as well, the question is when. After driving a few nice EV trucks, and some future ones, They are very capable, if not a little weird offroad. For example hard to judge where the power pedal is in relationship to the obstacle. With ICE I can watch or listen to the RPM and drive a plan. With the EV is more difficult, need to retrain the brain to think differently as torque is instant and can't be changed to the conditions. Not bad, just different thinking.

Fosil fuels are not endless resources, so there is a limit where we may see more LPgas or other technologies move in. The effect of lithium mining is devastating many environments where laws are ignored.

The main concern is the grid, not that we dont have the capability, but the willingness and fortitude to spend money on upgrades. I have had a couple of power gen companies as clients, they pretend to be forward looking but are not at all, just trying to survive the "now". The leadership is old, and I am old too but these guys should have retired decades ago as they can't fathom the new speed of technology, and really willfully ignorant to the demands and how to rise to them. There is also a lot of politics (legislative branch) control those companies fees and efficiency requirements for generation and distribution, and many of those politicians are still surprised that Alexander Bell invented a talking box, dont even bring up wireless charging or they throw out witchcraft speeches.

Generation sources are still, in a way, being developed, but as long as there is little money in those alternatives fuels, most will use fosil fuels and nuclear. Some places that have gone mostly hydro, which sounds awesome, have the natural resources for it. And then with global warming those resources are becoming eratic and unpredictable.

This winter in Europe will be something very telling as power generation will be hit with lack of fuel, how are people going to react to it might be a signal to the rest of the world as to what to expect if we do not spend money on power generation and distribution efficiency.

 

[NC LX]

I have nothing to add that hasn't already been said. I will say, when the technology gets there, I love the idea creeping through the woods completely silent in my 60.

For example, Sunday heading up toward Max Patch, Ezra and I came up on a bear. I love the idea that we could of rolled up a little quieter and got to watch a few seconds longer before it scourred up the hill.

 

[lt1fire]

Good points, but these are all true for ICE vehicles as well (I don't think EV's have substantially more plastic than the average new car?), with petroleum producers not having a squeaky-clean history in labor and environmental exploitation.

A common argument against EV's is the environmental production and electricity generation cost, and if that is to be apples to apples, you also have to look at the fuel production cost per ICE vehicle useful life as well - oil exploration, drilling, refining, transportation, etc. Not to mention global environmental disasters like Valdez, Deepwater Horizon, etc. When looking this way, EV's still come out ahead. EVs also accomplish a drastically greater thermal efficiency with the energy they need to operate.


These are also intertwined with electric usage as a whole for people's overall power needs, which needs work across the board.

I think if the first wave adoption of EVs continues to be private ownership for people with consistent use-cases (commute, errand, home, repeat) that charge overnight at home, the grid can handle a night-time load of home chargers. I think it's when we are alongside/replacing gas stations with high-voltage rapid chargers at large scale, particularly in hot climate summers, it becomes a big problem.

You beat me to all those points. Completely agree.
Lots of arguments against EVs want to take all the cons against them but fail to take in the same cons against ICEs.
Also to speak about energy production being dirty. That all depends on where you live. The energy production in WA split is, last I checked, 66% hydro - natural gas 12% - Wind/Solar 9% - Nuclear 8% and then coal and misc taking up less than 5%.
It hasn't always been this way, clean energy was just wanted by the populace of the state. Want cleaner energy, vote in people that will do it.
NC currently is Natural Gas 33% - Nuclear 31% - coal 22% - renewables 15%. Being a coastal state NC has a huge advantage to invest in tidal energy production.

My soul purpose for liking EVs isn't just cleaner energy its just that they are the wave of the future. I love ICEs and will most likley always have 1 or two in my fleet till the day I take a dirt nap, but EVs are where the world is going.
I had driven a fee before this year but I attended an EV driving car show back in June and they are just amazing to drive. Hell I waited 3 hours in a line to ride shotgun in one of those Ludacris speed model S. It isn't the fastest Ed thing I've ever driven in or driven but it was a hell of a lot faster accelerating than my low 11 second camaro.
The cars I did get to drive on the road courses were the Chevy Bolt, Hyundai EQ, VW E Golf, Ripian, and just about every Tesla Model out there.
They are strange feeling at first and of course sound terrible compared to ICEs but after you get past that they just drive so nice. Even the cheapest, the Bolt was nice to drive, although a bit small for my size.