Keep Your 200 (2 Viewers)

[eatSleepWoof]

You mean spending or financing $90k+ on a depreciating asset isn't a wise financial decision?????

Shocker, isn't it?

But ROI on a vehicle is different for every person. There are cases where that $90k purchase makes sense over the long term.

I used to buy $100 boots every winter, and within a few months they'd be no longer waterproof, leaking, and generally falling apart. The following fall I'd buy a new pair. After 4-5 years of this, I went to Danner's website and bought a pair of $350 boots. Six years later, they are still waterproof, still incredibly comfortable, and still look like they've had a week of use. If you can afford it, paying more for quality up front can actually end up being cheaper in the long term. This takes us back to the idea of buying cars that are reliable, and their price points...

 

[eatSleepWoof]

My uncle who is an orthopedic surgeon (now long retired). Bike commuted to the hospital most days, when he did buy a car for anyone in the family he bought a used beater (back in the 80’s and 90’s I remember it was almost always a ford Taurus or Subaru) that he thought was in “reasonable” condition and a great deal. Drives it for 1-2 years and usually sells it for at least what he pays for it. He calls it his revolving free car program.

There's definitely truth to that, and it's a viable option for many.

A friend of mine one bought a 20 year old Civic hatchback; drove it for 30,000 miles without a single oil change, and sold it for more than what he paid initially.

The challenge is you need to know what "reasonable" condition entails, and how to check for that. Many people end up buying pieces of junk which break down on them and need more $$ in repairs than the value of the vehicle.

 

[OregonLC]

Imo, not really apples to oranges comparison. I fly business for work, but for personal travel its economy simply due to cost. The same applies to vehicles. Most bought 4Runners and such over 200 series Land Cruisers not because they did not want more luxury, but cost.

The same 'apple', if you will, is the complaint. What people say they want and where they direct their financial resource are different, regardless of the justification. In the context of this conversation ('Keep your 200'), the 200 is valued over the 250 because of build quality, yet the 250 will outsell the 200 because of cost, at least off the showroom floor. Same as people complaining about small seats with no legroom yet when given the chance they buy this over comfort. We like to complain, yet, in general, aren't willing to relieve the complaint by spending more.

The secondary vehicle market is different. Here, the value proposition has changed as depreciation has narrowed the cost gap making it easier to justify the delta in price.

 

[Oakleyguy]

I look forward to your getting your new rig. I just saw the OT as an option on the LX platform. Interesting possibilities, but is it still the 3.5 V6 with the bearing issues?

As I understand it, the manufacturing issue that lead to the bearing failure was resolved in FEB/MAR of 2023.

 

[Supra Turbo]

The same 'apple', if you will, is the complaint. What people say they want and where they direct their financial resource are different, regardless of the justification. In the context of this conversation ('Keep your 200'), the 200 is valued over the 250 because of build quality, yet the 250 will outsell the 200 because of cost, at least off the showroom floor. Same as people complaining about small seats with no legroom yet when given the chance they buy this over comfort. We like to complain, yet, in general, aren't willing to relieve the complaint by spending more.

The secondary vehicle market is different. Here, the value proposition has changed as depreciation has narrowed the cost gap making it easier to justify the delta in price.

Majority of worlds population does not have the means to spend more. The value proposition becomes even more difficult when one vehicle is 50% or double the cost of the other in the case of aforementioned 4Runner. When introduced, the 200 had better tech than the 4Runner, yet the 4Runner sold better because it was cheaper, as expected. Many would want to be in a 200 series, but able to afford or justify the cost of a 250 or 4Runner.

 

[OregonLC]

I'm in complete agreement with everything you said.

I think the point I'm emphasizing is that people will complain here and elsewhere about the 250 not being cut from the same cloth as the generations before. Yet if it were built like a 200, to your point, it also wouldn't sell. That 'they don't build them like they used to' is because we don't buy them like we used to.

I supposed one could also argue that we could get the build quality yet without the frills a a more reasonable cost... yet that too wouldn't sell.

 

[Zill]

I'm in complete agreement with everything you said.

I think the point I'm emphasizing is that people will complain here and elsewhere about the 250 not being cut from the same cloth as the generations before. Yet if it were built like a 200, to your point, it also wouldn't sell. That 'they don't build them like they used to' is because we don't buy them like we used to.

I supposed one could also argue that we could get the build quality yet without the frills a a more reasonable cost... yet that too wouldn't sell.

To your last point, the 1958 250 is a great example of this. Dealers can’t even give them away right now since people are accustomed to wanting creature comforts galore in anything above 30k to justify their purchase.

 

[OregonLC]

To that end, I strongly considered 'upgrading' to a GX 550. We had just purchased a Yukon XL with Super Cruise and a big factor was the GX not having any hand-free driving mode. I like driving, especially trails. But having some level of autonomous driving is a game changer on long highway days.

 

[MRego]

Dealers can’t even give them away right now since people are accustomed to wanting creature comforts galore in anything above 30k to justify their purchase.

Can you imagine what will happen when the 6th gen 4runners hit the lot? It will be fun to watch the sleazeball salespeople in these stealerships frying their asses with the piles and piles of 1958 Prados.

 

[Oakleyguy]

To that end, I strongly considered 'upgrading' to a GX 550. We had just purchased a Yukon XL with Super Cruise and a big factor was the GX not having any hand-free driving mode. I like driving, especially trails. But having some level of autonomous driving is a game changer on long highway days.

The GX's lane keep and adaptive cruise drove me almost the whole way from Tulsa to Denver with only a pinky on the wheel.

 

[OregonLC]

The GX's lane keep and adaptive cruise drove me almost the whole way from Tulsa to Denver with only a pinky on the wheel.

Haven't driven it so can't comment from first hand experience. Not sure it's the same league as what GM has. Super Cruise is no-hands and will manage lane changes, merging traffic, etc.

 

[Specialeyes]

The 200 has ruined car/truck shopping for me. I've always been the type of buyer to get the latest model, drive it 2-3 years and then trade when I'm bored with it and want to "upgrade" to the next new thing. I have been daily driving a 200 for the last 18 months now and that itch has come back around (old habits die hard) but then when I see what is out there on the new market I find myself not all that impressed. Too many compromises, lack of utility, lesser value/quality for the money spent, not reliable/high maintenance costs/high insurance, etc. and this is not just a Toyota problem. I have driven and researched models from Ford, GM, Audi, Volvo, BMW, Porsche, Rivian, Honda, and of course Toyota and Lexus. New cars in general just are not the same as what was being offered 15-20 years ago and again, this is not just a Toyota problem. It's across the entire automotive landscape.

 

[rexington14]

The 200 has ruined car/truck shopping for me. I've always been the type of buyer to get the latest model, drive it 2-3 years and then trade when I'm bored with it and want to "upgrade" to the next new thing. I have been daily driving a 200 for the last 18 months now and that itch has come back around (old habits die hard) but then when I see what is out there on the new market I find myself not all that impressed. Too many compromises, lack of utility, lesser value/quality for the money spent, not reliable/high maintenance costs/high insurance, etc. and this is not just a Toyota problem. I have driven and researched models from Ford, GM, Audi, Volvo, BMW, Porsche, Rivian, Honda, and of course Toyota and Lexus. New cars in general just are not the same as what was being offered 15-20 years ago and again, this is not just a Toyota problem. It's across the entire automotive landscape.

Keep what you got since it's not really replaceable.

Scratch the itch with a second / spare / fun / project vehicle.

 

[Zill]

The 200 has ruined car/truck shopping for me. I've always been the type of buyer to get the latest model, drive it 2-3 years and then trade when I'm bored with it and want to "upgrade" to the next new thing. I have been daily driving a 200 for the last 18 months now and that itch has come back around (old habits die hard) but then when I see what is out there on the new market I find myself not all that impressed. Too many compromises, lack of utility, lesser value/quality for the money spent, not reliable/high maintenance costs/high insurance, etc. and this is not just a Toyota problem. I have driven and researched models from Ford, GM, Audi, Volvo, BMW, Porsche, Rivian, Honda, and of course Toyota and Lexus. New cars in general just are not the same as what was being offered 15-20 years ago and again, this is not just a Toyota problem. It's across the entire automotive landscape.

At least this helps your pocket book in the long run.

 

[OregonLC]

The 200 has ruined car/truck shopping for me. I've always been the type of buyer to get the latest model, drive it 2-3 years and then trade when I'm bored...

I hear you. I went from a 2013 LC to a 2021 Power Wagon (bought new) to a 2016 LX. To be fair, much of that decision was based upon the trail presence of a full-size truck (too big for PNW roads). But there's just not a current offering that checks the same boxes.

I will say that if GM had a mid-size SUV with the same feature set as our 2024 Yukon XL Denali Duramax I'd likely have gone that direction. 30 mpg highway, 800 mile range, Super Cruise. The Canyon doesn't get the same features nor the diesel nor (IMO) does it have enough mass to be safe against HD pickups or heavy battery-mobiles.

 

[gasman4u]

I hear you. I went from a 2013 LC to a 2021 Power Wagon (bought new) to a 2016 LX. To be fair, much of that decision was based upon the trail presence of a full-size truck (too big for PNW roads). But there's just not a current offering that checks the same boxes.

I will say that if GM had a mid-size SUV with the same feature set as our 2024 Yukon XL Denali Duramax I'd likely have gone that direction. 30 mpg highway, 800 mile range, Super Cruise. The Canyon doesn't get the same features nor the diesel nor (IMO) does it have enough mass to be safe against HD pickups or heavy battery-mobiles.

The PW was the one consideration I had vs getting 200. I thank God I didn’t go with the ram.

 

[OregonLC]

The PW was the one consideration I had vs getting 200. I thank God I didn’t go with the ram.

The 2021 2500 Power Wagon was actually a fantastic vehicle. The only issue I had was an exterior temp sensor that went bad, probably due to me picking ice of the bottom of the mirror. Replaced it for $11 (could have used that warranty, but it was worth more than $11 to not have to waste time on multiple dealer trips). Other than that it was flawless, comfortable, easy to drive, better on snow/ice than that 200. The solid front axle and swaybar disconnect make it a giant Jeep. If it wasn't so dang big I would have kept it.

Toyota has a real thing with their 'golden ratio'. The Ram was only 20" longer but all of that was in wheelbase. Turning around on shelf roads isn't really possible. And the 6" in extra width doesn't seem like much but on tight trails is the difference between go and no-go.

 

[gasman4u]

The 2021 2500 Power Wagon was actually a fantastic vehicle. The only issue I had was an exterior temp sensor that went bad, probably due to me picking ice of the bottom of the mirror. Replaced it for $11 (could have used that warranty, but it was worth more than $11 to not have to waste time on multiple dealer trips). Other than that it was flawless, comfortable, easy to drive, better on snow/ice than that 200. The solid front axle and swaybar disconnect make it a giant Jeep. If it wasn't so dang big I would have kept it.

Toyota has a real thing with their 'golden ratio'. The Ram was only 20" longer but all of that was in wheelbase. Turning around on shelf roads isn't really possible. And the 6" in extra width doesn't seem like much but on tight trails is the difference between go and no-go.

Good to hear. Too bad it doesn’t come with a Cummins. I’m a fan of their engines. Too bad they only come wrapped in a dodge for regular guys.

 

[OregonLC]

Good to hear. Too bad it doesn’t come with a Cummins. I’m a fan of their engines. Too bad they only come wrapped in a dodge for regular guys.

Ram discussed this decision. The Cummins engine is around 1,100 lbs. That weight would unfavorably change the spring rate and balance for the intended purpose. If only they had a baby Cummins, like the 3.0 Duramax, to put in it.

I don't know there are any 'great' engines out there currently. The 6.2 GM has a massive problem. The big DuraMax has a crankshaft pin the shears. The 6.4 Hemi eats cams if MDS is left engaged (easy to disable if you're aware). The Power Stroke CP4 fuel pump can be a complete fuel system replacement if it goes. Seems like everyone is stumbling right now. It seems like we went from engines that lasted with transmissions that failed to transmissions that last and engines that fail.

 

[Specialeyes]

I don't know there are any 'great' engines out there currently.

Maybe not in BOF trucks but in crossovers and sedans you have the B58 from BMW and you can still get the 2UR in the IS/LC 500.