KDSS dealer/warranty issues

[mooneywa]

Part question/part rant:

I have the KDSS lean on my '15. It was noticeable at first but wasn't terrible however it seems to have grown more in difference lately, or maybe I've just noticed it more, between the left side (1.5" lower) and the right side on the front. I took it into the dealer and told them EXACTLY what was wrong - KDSS is misbalanced - so the service writer of course didn't want to listen and took 2 hours with the truck to tell me... wait for it... that the KDSS is misbalanced. They'll need to do a "bleed procedure" (I guess that means unscrew the valves 3 turns and settle the car) and that should fix it. But first he needs to check with the Toyota Extended Care warranty folks to see if they will cover this "adjustment." While I'm standing there he emphasizes on the phone, of course, that it's an adjustment and the warranty guy, of course, says that adjustments aren't covered. Oh and they'll be happy to do it out of warranty... for $359.

Can I do this "fix" on my own? Per the ARB guidelines, sure. But I have a warranty and that's what a dealer is for: to fix when things are wrong.

Off the rant, on to the questions...

Is there an actual TSB out for this? Something that officially says this is wrong and not just an "adjustment"?

Has anyone else run into this issue with an "adjustment" vs "something wrong" on the warranty regarding KDSS leans or issues in general?

Does anyone have a recommendation for a dealer that might get this problem, not adjustment, sorted out in the Houston area? We can write Tejas Toyota off that list.

*** Bone stock with only change being OEM size BFG ATs

 

[RET2]

I've had the same thing with my '14... 1.5" difference. Next day went out and drove it and when back in garage remeasured and it's back within 1/4" go figure? Try driving with some 90 degree turns and see if after settling it's back close

 

[silverfstop]

I have zero knowable about the policy, however I wouldn't hesitate to run this up the flagpole to Toyota Corporate.

Personally I'm really exhausted by the constant dealer run arounds... so I often straight to the top of the food chain and save myself a lot of grief in between.

 

[TonyP]

Ask to talk to the service manager. If he gives you the run around, ask for his boss, so on and so forth. You still might not get anywhere as it might be considered the same thing as a wheel alignment, an adjustment. Worth a shot though.

 

[RET2]

I don't believe the dealers actually service that many LC's and have well versed tech's like they would for a Forerunner or Tacoma. Besides equalizing the system is relatively easy, only two pitfalls... not being able to count to 3 and corroded valve screws. Oh there is 1 more,
righty-tighty vs lefty-lucy

 

[linuxgod]

The GSIC says if left-to-right is within 15mm it's normal, and outside that they actually need to bleed air from the KDSS system. To do so requires a special tool since the KDSS system is pressurized to 600psi.

You have a 2015 - I'm assuming you're over 36k miles? Otherwise I would think you'd be within the 3/36 warranty. I'm also assuming your suspension is stock. I'd certainly complain to Toyota corporate since it's a sealed system so there shouldn't be air in it - if there is that to me indicates poor QC at the factory (unless the system is leaking, but you'd know that really quick because you'd have fluid spraying everywhere).

You can do the 3 turn thing yourself if you want to try it for free. All you need is a 5mm allen wrench and a few minutes of your time. There's info all over the forum and I can repost the procedure if you need it. In my experience it doesn't help by YMMV. If you do it and the issue returns then it likely needs to be bled.

 

[Island1064]

I had a inch lean driver side, tried the procedure recommended by ARB many times it always settled back in that lean, went to the dealer they passed it to Toyota, Toyota corporate told me it was within specs. (LC was new).
Finally got rid of the lean when I upgraded my suspensions.

 

[TonyP]

The 5th gen 4Runners have KDSS as an option so they should at least be somewhat familiar with the system.

 

[mooneywa]

@linuxgod - The height was what I was concerned about and they said it can't exceed .59xx" - which is probably about 15mm. I'm at 1.5" roughly. I was polite but firm and factual with the service writer and he finally got the service manager who doesn't know squat about KDSS so he brought out the tech. The tech was kind enough to take me back and show me what was going on and basically reiterated what I already knew. The tech was knowledgeable and I think he'd do fine with the system, but again... why am I having to pay $359 for it?

I separately also wonder if this is contributing to the cruiser wanting to pull left even when it's within specs of alignment?

I've seen the ARB procedure and I'll give it a try, but I'm not expecting anything out of it. I'm more irritated that this isn't just a fix on Toyota's part.

 

[mooneywa]

Cruiser Lean: "You've been doing it all wrong. Yes you"

Post #32...

Does anyone have a copy of this TSB since the link is dead? Spot on for year and issue.

 

[SWUtah]

Another reason to own a Lexus!! "SERVICE". Go into or call the GM. Tell him his service is BS. You own a 15 LC and trade every few years and based on this BS you won't buy your next $80k vehicle from him. I did similar about a free car wash and after I complained to the GM I got a free $150 detail.

 

[linuxgod]

I separately also wonder if this is contributing to the cruiser wanting to pull left even when it's within specs of alignment?

Yes if you have a significant lean it will contribute to the vehicle pulling. You'll also get torque steer, where you pull to one side upon acceleration and then to the opposite side when you let off the gas. I had ~1.5" different left-to-right when I originally installed my lift and the handling sucked. (In my case it was that the taller rear spring was installed incorrectly on the driver's side).

I agree I wouldn't pay $359 for it until I spoke to the zone manager and then to corporate. The truck should not develop a lean since it's a sealed system with no air in it. If there is any air it's a flaw in the original pressurization which was done by Toyota so IMO they should fix it.

 

[linuxgod]

Cruiser Lean: "You've been doing it all wrong. Yes you"

Post #32...

Does anyone have a copy of this TSB since the link is dead? Spot on for year and issue.

 

[mooneywa]

So seriously the procedure that ARB recommends and OME and whoever else is what the dealer wants $359 for? Absolutely unbelievable.

Edit: Totally believable. I stand by my comment that the worst part of owning an LC is the Toyota dealership. Corolla quality service on a $75k car.

 

[mooneywa]

Further update: performed the procedure as noted by @linuxgod above. Went from 1.5" to just under .5" or as Toyota would say, "within spec."

Haven't driven it yet to see if there is a change after driving, but still this drastically better. Will update after more driving.

As always, thanks to the forum.

 

[linuxgod]

Biggest change I noticed when I swapped my rear springs (which was giving me 1.5” of lean) was that the torque steer went away. Different cause but similar effect. Step on the gas from a stoplight with your hands off the wheel and see if it pulls. Then let off the gas and see if it pulls the other way. If it’s straight on and off the gas without any assistance you should be in pretty good shape.

 

[NC237]

Ditto. I was at 1.25" of a lean. Post procedure mine was .5". I paid the dealer to do it which was a waste because it's trial and error. One time ya might make it better and others you might make it worse... As such this is why they don't want to do it under warranty.
Anyway the .5" on mine is only on a full tank of gas though. Without a full tank I'm still at a 1" lean. I've just accepted it as normal. Annoying, but normal.

 

[mooneywa]

After driving, as @linuxgod said, the torque steer has minimized. But what's funny is I didn't realize it was there until I noticed it wasn't. Overall hitting bumps is much less dramatic. I feel like when I was at that much of a lean I was steering both wheels independently and now it's all as one. Again, just thought that was how business was conducted in the cruiser - live axle in back, ATs on all 4 corners - but I guess not. Finally, the steering isn't 100% straight, but it's less wander-y as it was.

After driving I'm maybe up to between .5 and .75" difference, but vastly better for now. I may open the valves and try again in a couple days.

 

[linuxgod]

If you do it again you can try to this trick to balance the lean:

Fixing a KDSS lean - Balancing KDSS

It didn't help me but others like @MScruiser have had success in doing it (though I think he used a jack). He suggests over-compensating, IIRC.

If you're able to keep the lean under 1/2" permanently I would get an alignment done as well. I used to find the factory steering/suspension wandered a bit - nothing awful but I was always making little steering corrections on the highway. I now have a 2" lift so my setup is a little different than before (and than yours), but with a good alignment my truck tracks straight on the highway now and I don't have to make subtle corrections to keep it in the lane. If you were near Chicago I'd let you drive my truck and see what I mean.

FWIW whoever does your alignment I do recommend asking them to push caster as far positive as they can within spec. That will help with the wandering, at a cost of making the steering feel slightly heavier. IIRC the caster range is something like 2.75 degrees +/- 0.75, which is a pretty big range. If your caster is low the truck will wander more and many alignment techs won't bother to adjust it if you're "within spec". @Taco2Cruiser has posted some good advice in the forums as well around alignments.

 

[skhochay]

Part question/part rant:

I have the KDSS lean on my '15. It was noticeable at first but wasn't terrible however it seems to have grown more in difference lately, or maybe I've just noticed it more, between the left side (1.5" lower) and the right side on the front. I took it into the dealer and told them EXACTLY what was wrong - KDSS is misbalanced - so the service writer of course didn't want to listen and took 2 hours with the truck to tell me... wait for it... that the KDSS is misbalanced. They'll need to do a "bleed procedure" (I guess that means unscrew the valves 3 turns and settle the car) and that should fix it. But first he needs to check with the Toyota Extended Care warranty folks to see if they will cover this "adjustment." While I'm standing there he emphasizes on the phone, of course, that it's an adjustment and the warranty guy, of course, says that adjustments aren't covered. Oh and they'll be happy to do it out of warranty... for $359.

Can I do this "fix" on my own? Per the ARB guidelines, sure. But I have a warranty and that's what a dealer is for: to fix when things are wrong.

Off the rant, on to the questions...

Is there an actual TSB out for this? Something that officially says this is wrong and not just an "adjustment"?

Has anyone else run into this issue with an "adjustment" vs "something wrong" on the warranty regarding KDSS leans or issues in general?

Does anyone have a recommendation for a dealer that might get this problem, not adjustment, sorted out in the Houston area? We can write Tejas Toyota off that list.

*** Bone stock with only change being OEM size BFG ATs

I do not rely talking about, but you have 1005 warranty bumper to bumper if you do? do you? if so then Toyota dealer will fix for free to you.