So why did ST say that my truck came with two cats before the collector? My truck came with 2 after the collector.
Are you getting this? You must be from Michigan.
Why Michigan? You still have not responded to the issues.
K&N Air filter for SuperCharger?
- Thread starter Ting
- Start date
This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate
links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.
Why Michigan? You still have not responded to the issues.
You might want to go back to your leader to see what he meant went he told me that my truck came with 2 cats in the downpipes before the collector 'cause I have no idea.
You are missing restraint. You strike me as an ankle biter who rushes into posting insults without even having a good reason, as if there would be a good reason.
Just because you disagree with someone doesn't mean you are irrefutably right. Is it that important to you to be right that you have to be so mean?
I don't think there is a way to respond to your issues without medication.
I was wrong about hte article supplying all the data I thought it contained. They only ran what in my opinon, and the authors, are the better rotors with the metallic pads. So it is not 100% quantitative data. There, I was wrong about the data and I said it. I should of read the chart more closely before I claimed it to be 100% valid. I still believe that the overall featured combination was proved a better overall combination. I also believe that more quantitative tests would show the featured rotor better than stock. MHO.
Platinum *can* increase service life, that's not an automatic. The term service life is a bit of a misnomer. This is a drop in and forget kinda thing. I don't see any plug lasting 60k without a service interval. This would be exactly a regap or replace. If you look at two similar design plugs, the one with more electrodes may wear better because the spark jumps to the closer electrode. However, that doesn't really address proper gap, a better designed plug, or a recommended plug. If you want to see what Bosch believes to be their best turbo application, take a gander at the 27USD FD5POR. It's a single electrode, is a side gapper, has a much larger rod of platinum, and is gappable (IOW, it *has* a service life).
All marketing aside, it's better to look at Bosch 'extreme' duty application, than the marketing arm to the masses. A triple copper is also considered a long life, and has the same design as the F5, so the electrode doesn't cause cracking. That said, a bunch of spark plugs will *work*.
From my research into the headers on the 1FZFE, I see no reason to go for headers. I'll spend time on the downpipe, cats, and collector for better performance benefit.
That regurgitates the old marketing from the 60's. And btw, most performance guys refer to metal masters as "slagmasters". Stop the google search and pick up the phone! When you have a motorcycle or a go kart, there may be benefit. On a 30mm vented truck rotor, there just is more compromise than benefit. I know you *want* to believe. If it had that much benefit we should see it in extreme duty applications where heat is key to braking performance. It's a retail 'look like porsche' marketing bling, that gives a lot of perceived benefit. The cheapest beneficial mod is to direct air to the brakes. That's also well documented. Have you done that? How do you get airflow thru the crossdrilled rotor when you have a backing plate on it? Or did you take that off?
I'm a pick a number, an outrageous number, and toss it in kinda guy. Let's say we ignore the fulll context of the Miata reference you posted, and say that the benefit is 20% more airflow for the same size filter (that's exponentially more than measured). Ok, now do the math on surface area of both filters. The problem here is no baseline. Have you calculated what a header equipped 80 will flow in terms of cfm at redline?
"For testing"... My point being that I doubt you could get a accurate enough test to measure the difference between stock, K&N and none.
My rotors are completely straight after 50k, no crossdrilling, no special treatment. I put SM pads in 15k ago, ran steamboat ice track, towed a 24 foot camper in June, and just got back from a trip towing a 5k trailer from Estes Park CO. I still have lots of pad remaining (I paid 25USD for them at autozone), and my stopping performance has always been excellent. By improved, is this feel, or shorter stopping distance? I think Mr. T did a fine job of designing the stock plug for the 80, and find a P4 to be the worst altenative to using the stock one. Want to test that? Put the stockers on a scope, and the P4's on the scope. IME, you won't get 6 P4's to all hit the same peak.
I find a lot of mindset on this forum. Facts about cross drilled rotors haven't changed, they still aren't used in any extreme duty application. Wilwood, Coleman (brembo used to, then they found the extra cash of those that believed) will tell you that CD doesn't do a damn thing for a vented car/truck rotor. There isn't a single person that would disagree that braking performance is all about heat management. And the most effective braking performance comes from ducting cold air to the brakes.
You can believe what you have works. I find most of what you've done to be buying the marketing. I've stuck with this because it's education that returns performance, not marketing hype. From plugs, exhaust theory, K&N, wires, and cross drilled rotors. I design performance cars for a living, from offroad to tarmac to ice. I have opinions on what works and what doesn't, because I test, drive, analyze failure, and analyze performance. I don't buy hype, I buy demonstrated low risk performance modifications that pass accepted theory, practical application, and performance benchmarks.
I appreciate that isn't important to you. This started with the K&N, but expanded into quite a few misconceptions on performance. I encourage you to spend time on the sites that help you generate some baseline numbers for your truck. Then, you too can look at 'claims' and have a point of reference beyond testimonial.
Cheers
ST
So if I get good performance and I have to do less work to maintain that performance, then it is my opinion that spending $15-$20 is worth it. All marketing aside.
I know that I have seen a huge gain in performance from the use of tuned headers. I was amazed at the difference. Like you said, "its mind set". You think that having two cats is worth staying with the the oem manifolds. I think your wrong again. I can't show a side by side comparsion, but niether can you show me. I wasn't born yesterday though. I've been building cars for a long time even though I don't twist wrenches for a living. I do have great friends who do. Headers are good for a significant gain if the exhaust is done correctly with a free flowing cat, no sharp angles, or crunched bends. I would submit that they more than counter the use of dual cats off of cast iron manifolds.
You can disagree. I understand that is your mind set even though your research cannot support your bias.
Talking about info from the 60's is exactly my point. Although cheap crossdrilled rotors are still widely available and have that racer boy look, there are technologically well designed cross-drilled rotors that provide for less fade by cooling better and by allowing for serviceable use of metallic pads by renwewing and removing evenly the surface of the pads while allowing the quicker disipation of gassees. Even the old school research you posted is correct for a substandard crossdrilled rotor. But, Technology changes and improves. The benfits of well designed crossdrilled rotors are evident in racing, on Porsches, Ferraris, Lamborghinis, and my Truck! Like yours, my stock rotors stayed straight, but I probably drive more spirited than you. I was running through the cheap stock pads and experiencing brake fade. Now I don't and I have straight rotors(no cracks or warps-despite what your research says) and plenty of pad life while using high performance carbon/metallic pads. So try leaving the old school mind set and being more open to understanding the benefits of new Tech. Or not. I've made my choice with no regrets. I never was much for accepting the status quo without continuous improvement.
No, have you. Besides, like you and I both know, there is more to it than CFM. There is heat loss/scavenging and tuning. Resistance in the exhaust effects the intake and vice versa. Heat also effects exhaust. Headers do a better job of sending heat out the pipe than your cast iron manifolds.
That is why we need a test at the track. Then the other variables are constant. That way all doubt can be removed. My point all along.
So stick with stock brakes, plugs, and airfilters and forget about stepping outside of your box.
Based on new technology and experience I disagree with your old school attitude and mind set. The metallics stop better (you know and I know it) and my CDs have kept straight (and the pads as well) by releasing gasses and removing metallic material uniformly. REad the article I posted. It shows that the CDs with metallics outperformed stock significantly.
New technology. New information. New school ST.
You have an old school mindset based on preconcieved notions.
I appreciate that you don't have the time or the need to look for new and improved solutions. I suggest you stick with what works for you.
Last edited:
I was wrong about hte article supplying all the data I thought it contained. They only ran what in my opinon, and the authors, are the better rotors with the metallic pads. So it is not 100% quantitative data. There, I was wrong about the data and I said it. I should of read the chart more closely before I claimed it to be 100% valid. I still believe that the overall featured combination was proved a better overall combination. I also believe that more quantitative tests would show the featured rotor better than stock. MHO.
Now please go back and answer the other questions. You paint broad generalizations (like above with Sumotoy when you say headers provide performance benifits) and then try to apply them to a specific application and call that a "fact." You really, really, really need to read a little bit on methodology and its application.
BTW, those new found metal master pads, they were the hot item back in the 1960's.
I'm done, arguing with you is like arguing with a born again Christian. You hear what you want to hear, claim everything you state is a documented fact (but cannot support it when pushed) and that everything the other person says is false. BTW, did you know that magnets on your fuel line will increase horsepower and mileage by 10%?!! It's true, you can find it on google.
From research I have done over the years headers are much better than cast iron manifolds. That said, I don't feel like researching it for you. You are worse than unpleasant when it comes to communicating. Do it on your own.
Yeah? My Hawks are a similar pad in that they are semi-metallic and probably wouldn't be the best choice for stock rotors either (whether it is today or in 1960).
They are a little rough for stock rotors. And besides, since you probably drive like a little girl you'll never need the extra braking capacity anyway.
I never looked at it as an argument until you started nipping at my ankles. It is one thing to have fun and agree to disagree. It is another thing to just be an abrasive know-it-all who starts slinging dirt and non-sense when they can't keep up with the facts. The crap pours out your mouth. You should learn to restrain your temper that way you won't sound so much like a little man.
If it makes no difference, is it worth it anymore? In the case of the K&N, you have to do more work to maintain that performance. Without an installed measure of vacuum, when do *you* service the K&N?
I think you bolt on a set of headers to an 80, you buy more hype. There is very little if any performance gain on headers with an autobox, that's old school. Two cats ouflows a single, that's old school math. Cast iron manifolds aren't a bad thing, unless they are a restriction. You specifically have offset any gain with a single cat, again just math. I don't see the manifolds being a restriction to the exhaust, and TRD doesn't either, they used the stockers for the 400hp build. That's beyond my goal, so headers are a waste of money. Mindset? It's clearly defined goals and targets based on accepted engine theory and calculations.
What *specifically* is improved in a crossdrilled rotor? Radiused holes? That doesn't do a darn thing, it's strress cracking from the machining and heat cycles that's the problem. Porsche did the aboslute best "new high tech" they could given crossdrilled, they cast the holes in (definition of stress relieved). They still crack. Trying to say it's tech well designed is buying something that doesn't exist. Cross drilling, is crossdrilling, it's x many holes thru a rotor. The disipation of gasses on an 80 rotor is BS, but certainly better addressed by a slot than a hole. What have you done to the backing plates? If you run them, how do you get airflow thru the rotor? The backing plates and wheels are an obstruction to airflow, specifically any flow through the rotor.
They aren't evident in racing, sorry. The majority of race cars slot, that's it. The P cars, Ferraris and Lambos use ceramic discs (including the new GT3 production car).
More spirited driving comparos? I doubt it, or come on out to my Steamboat Event and demonstrate all the improvements.
ST - Have you mathed out the cfm of the engine at redline?
Yes, I have, and again, your argument isn't supported with the math. Here's the conclusions of my math on the 80. I claim, even with your high flow headers and exhaust, you can't flow half the CFM the K&N is rated at. To the rest, again, you have your facts wrong. Headers don't automatically do a better job of sending heat out the pipe than a manifold, because a manifold traps higher heat = higher velocity. If you haven't measured the resistance in the exhaust, how do you know you benefitted from any mod. To claim velocity gains from headers, did you wrap the headers from the head to the collector, or did you go Nascar and wrap the exhaust from the head to the tailpipe? Then maybe more velocity, but then the header rust out... The gains from headers are in top end HP, of which a 5000rpm redline truck with a 4800 peak power outuput will benefit very little. In fact, unless you've done something on the intake side (beyond K&N), you probably cost yourself low end power for very little top end. Try a dyno, or a gtech.
What track, what are you testing? In the case of these engine mods, a gtech should be fine. A 20second quarter mile probably won't help you much, and I know that you can't be speaking to a tarmac track or even Steamboat. Define that track test, don't just say it.
I encourage you to test, not fan. I have tested most of what I've discussed here over my 20years in tweeking machines. The last 15 professionally, I've punted more crap into the garbage because folks buy the hype. If it doesn't outperform stock or clearly demonstrate some other benefit, it's not thinking outside the box. If you haven't even done a single computation on airflow, you have nothing but testimonial on the K&N. If you haven't done a 60-0 test on your brakes, you have only testimonial. 0-60 on your plugs and headers?
The stock pad from Toyota is SM, there's nothing new school about it. I've pulled off pads worn down to less than 1mm that Mr. T put in (dealer SM), and the wear was even. The article you posted has nothing to do with your truck, only marketing. Test your truck and post up the results, then many of us will accept your old school application applied to the 80. Until then, there are no facts to support your opinion.
I think the difference between you and me, is I don't buy or google, I install and test, and calculate and research. You have put a bunch of marketing on your truck, and it works. You have not demonstrated that it works better. From *a* filter, to *a* plug, to *a* exhaust, to *a*wire, to *a* brake. They all fit the 80, and the truck runs. The stock parts all fit the 80, and the truck runs. What's the mindset? That all the marketing makes it work better?
I've enjoyed the banter, and have had a great chuckle over it. I look forward to your first oil anaylysis, dyno sheet, or math calculations to support your opinion. I understand mindset, I deal with it daily. I'm happy to install crossdrilled rotors for anyone that says to put them on. I'm happy to lend these customers some advice based on my tests with a g-analyst and a gtech, that what they read, doesn't do squat. That's not mindset, that's just reality.
The last time one of my customers wanted his 335mm Coleman rotor crossdrilled, I told *him* to place the order. That worked!
My .02 arbitraged thru the peso
ST
I still see error and misunderstanding for perception in what you say. But, I'm tired of the banter and will concede that this discussion has run its course.
One of the great things about living in the US is that we are free to have our opinions. Sometimes one is right and sometimes one is not. Sometimes people attempting to be expressive are pleasant and sometimes they aren't sure how to be pleasant. One constant for sure is that nobody is always right.
...and that's all I've got to say about that...
