Builds Isuzu 4HE1TC into FJ62 (1 Viewer)

[astr]

the AW450 that are u using come factory in trucks in CR .. ?

Those lockups are automatic when it reach certain amount of rpm .?

Most of the Isuzu trucks that I see in CR have manual transmissions but the few that I did see with automatics appeared to be the Aisin AW450.

I've yet to totally understand the shift-point and lock-up diagrams in the FSM but it appears that the point at which the torque converter will lock up is a function of both truck speed (output shaft rpm) and throttle position. The more throtltle, the higher the speed in each gear before the TC locks up.

 

[Dougal]

Most of the Isuzu trucks that I see in CR have manual transmissions but the few that I did sede with automatics appeared to be the Aisin AW450.

I've yet to totally understand the shift-point and lock-up diagrams in the FSM but it appears that the point at which the torque converter will lock up is a function of both truck speed (output shaft rpm) and throttle position. The more throtltle, the higher the speed in each gear before the TC locks up.

That makes sense. I have a manual lockup switch in my shopping trolley (shopping trips often involve a mountain pass) and to lock it up smoothly you've got to be running at sufficient speed to have very little slip in the torque converter.
The more torque the engine is feeding in, the faster it has to spin to reduce the slip (and engagement shock) to an acceptable level.

 

[PurpleFJ62]

astr,
would be great to stop by and check out this swap you got going. I'm currently in school at GMI in flint, but home on most weekends to get away from the partying and do H.W.
I almost feel like a land cruiser poser on this board, my LC dosent even have insurance on it, I havent had the chance to touch it in over a year. My other toyota, 91 4runner also dosent have insurance, I dont like taking it to flint, last winter some ass hole threw a big rock and put a little dent in my fender, since then the jeep is my DD. I rather wear it out, parts are cheap and everywhere. I do miss driving my toyotas, the jeep just sucks.

Any chance to get some Ann Arbor area land cruiser guys together?

cheers

 

[ozwallaby]

re:Starter motor position.. I'd seriously look at getting a replacement starter that you can "somehow" mount forward of the flywheel.. this is of course if it's too hard to fix the floor..

 

[astr]

That makes sense. I have a manual lockup switch in my shopping trolley (shopping trips often involve a mountain pass) and to lock it up smoothly you've got to be running at sufficient speed to have very little slip in the torque converter.
The more torque the engine is feeding in, the faster it has to spin to reduce the slip (and engagement shock) to an acceptable level.

Which transmission is in your truck?

Looking at the wiring diagrams, it appears that it would be a simple matter to add a manual lockup switch so that you could engage the lockup in 1st gear. From what others on MUD have stated, one big downside of using an automatic is that you lose engine braking capability when crawling. A manual lockup switch would overcome this. You would have to manually turn off the lockup when stopping otherwise you would stall the engine. This is no bigger problem than pushing in the clutch pedal when stopping.

One issue that would need to be looked at is if there is enough hydraulic pressure at low rpms to engage the lockup. I think the lockup clutch is intended to be on or off so any slipping due to low activation pressures could have adverse effects on the clutch.

 

[astr]

re:Starter motor position.. I'd seriously look at getting a replacement starter that you can "somehow" mount forward of the flywheel.. this is of course if it's too hard to fix the floor..

On the 4HE1TC, the problem with using a starter that mounts alongside the engine and engages the flywheel from the front(conventional arrangement) is that the gear train that drives the overhead camshaft, IP, engine oil pump, PS pump is located at the rear of the engine between the rear cylinder and flywheel therefore there appears to be no clear shot at the flywheel from the front of the engine. I may be wrong on this as I haven't looked at it very carefully.

If there is a way to access the flywheel from the front, you would need to use a starter from a 4BDx as the 4HE1, mounted from the front, would turn the wrong way.

 

[Dougal]

Which transmission is in your truck?
Looking at the wiring diagrams, it appears that it would be a simple matter to add a manual lockup switch so that you could engage the lockup in 1st gear. From what others on MUD have stated, one big downside of using an automatic is that you lose engine braking capability when crawling. A manual lockup switch would overcome this. You would have to manually turn off the lockup when stopping otherwise you would stall the engine. This is no bigger problem than pushing in the clutch pedal when stopping.

One issue that would need to be looked at is if there is enough hydraulic pressure at low rpms to engage the lockup. I think the lockup clutch is intended to be on or off so any slipping due to low activation pressures could have adverse effects on the clutch.

This auto isn't in my truck, it's in my shopping trolley. A 2wd nissan station wagon.
I worried about the same issues you mention (maybe not enough oil pressure to keep the clutches engaged etc) and decided the price of another transmission would be cheap learning. 50,000km later it's holding up fine.

I have a switch with two lights beside it. Green means the ECU is trying to lock the TC, red means the manual over-ride is on. Yes I've stalled it a few times.
To get smooth engagement you've gotta be in a region where TC slip is minimal, in this car that's above 2000rpm, but once engaged it'll pull down to 1000rpm.

 

[astr]

This auto isn't in my truck, it's in my shopping trolley. A 2wd nissan station wagon.
I worried about the same issues you mention (maybe not enough oil pressure to keep the clutches engaged etc) and decided the price of another transmission would be cheap learning. 50,000km later it's holding up fine.

I have a switch with two lights beside it. Green means the ECU is trying to lock the TC, red means the manual over-ride is on. Yes I've stalled it a few times.
To get smooth engagement you've gotta be in a region where TC slip is minimal, in this car that's above 2000rpm, but once engaged it'll pull down to 1000rpm.

Your experience sound reassuring. I like your light setup - great idea to know what the ecu is thinking. It might be worthwhile to floor-mount a pushbutton where the clutch pedal would normally be that you could use your spare foot to disengage the lockup clutch before you stall out the engine.

Enough speculating. Time to finish up the transmission stand and get back focused on the hybrid transmission.

 

[Jule]

Your experience sound reassuring. I like your light setup - great idea to know what the ecu is thinking. It might be worthwhile to floor-mount a pushbutton where the clutch pedal would normally be that you could use your spare foot to disengage the lockup clutch before you stall out the engine.

Maybe use a floor mount dimmer switch to engage the TC?

 

[astr]

Maybe use a floor mount dimmer switch to engage the TC?

Yes, something like that.

 

[astr]

Made some progress this past weekend. Based on input from the experts on 4BTSWAPS board, I decided that I don't have an excessive oil pressure problem.

I played with the TV cable adjustment and got reasonable good shifting with the A440F as the core. I had to loosen the cable substantially from what the Toyota FSM specifies. The shifting is still a bit harsh but acceptable. It is possible that this harshness is a result of a problem in the transmission - I personally never drove the truck that the A440F came out of so I don't know how it acted in the donor truck.

The transmission stand is coming along and hope to have it finished this weekend. The next step will be to pull the A440F core transmission out of the NRP, tear it down so i can remove the output shaft and then hopefully install the A440F output shaft into the AW450. While I have the AW450 apart, I'll replace any worn items and all gaskets and seals.

 

[rchalmers3]

Pardon my confusion, but you have driven the AW450 and confirmed it operates well?

Rick

 

[astr]

Pardon my confusion, but you have driven the AW450 and confirmed it operates well?

Rick

The Isuzu NPR originally came with an AW450. I drove the truck with that transmission and it seemed to work fine. I also purchased an A440F from an FJ62 with a blown engine. I never had a chance to drive the FJ62 but the owner assured me that the transmission was OK.

I assembled a hybrid transmission, using the bellhousing and torque converter that came from the NPR and everything else including the transfer case from the FJ62. This hybrid transmission is what I was testing and having some difficullty to get the shifting correct. Because I can't personally confirm that the A440F shifted correctly while it was still in the FJ62, I really don't know if my shifting problems in the hybrid are due to the my setup or due to the A440F.

The next step is to try and build a hybrid using the complete AW450 transmission but with the output shaft from the A440F so that the T-case can be bolted to it. I have a choice of several AW450 to use - the one that came originally from the NPR. This one I know works but it has around 80K miles on it. I also have an AW450 that is "new" that came from the GM tech center taht was used for repair training. I'm tempted to use this one as the clutches and other wear items have 0 miles on them. The risk with using the "new" transmission is that students had "practiced" on this transmission.

 

[rchalmers3]

astr, your Weasel appears to be smoking.

You working on this project?

Rick

 

[astr]

astr, your Weasel appears to be smoking.

You working on this project?

Rick

It was during a 4th of July party that the Weasel picture was taken and we had strapped on a couple of canisters of skydiving smoke for effect I drag the Weasel out once a year and go play in the swamp with it, otherwise no work being done on it. Some day, I'd like to restore it to original condition.

If you are referring to the 4HE1TC project, yes I am working on it but a couple of other things came up that needed my time. The transmission stand is finished and I have pulled the hybrid transmission from the NPR chassis. Hopefully, I'll have an update after this next weekend.

 

[astr]

Plan B – The AW450 Core Hybrid

I finally got some time to put into this project. Up to this point I had built a hybrid transmission around the A440F core. I had used the bell housing and torque converter from an Isuzu AW450 transmission to directly replace those that came on the A440F. This allowed me to bolt the combo directly behind the Isuzu 4HE1-TC diesel without the use of any adapters. This combination I tested enough to verify that it would work but, as expected, it was not an ideal combination.

Next, I want to build a hybrid transmission around the AW450 core but with the LC split T-case hung on the back. To accomplish this, I needed to swap the output shaft from the A440F into the AW450. I had previously compared measurements with TheSherpa and was quite confident that the A440F T-case adapter would bolt directly onto the back of the AW450 transmission. Close inspection of both FSM’s made me think that there was a good chance that the shafts would also swap.

To remove the output shaft requires the complete teardown of the transmission. You start at the front and work your way back. I had already pulled the AW450 apart (the black one whose bell housing I’d used previously with the A440F core). Next step was to pull the A440F apart.

About 3:00 AM last night and after using 50 lbs of kitty litter to soak up the oil, I had the A440F output shaft in hand. What amazed me was how much oil remained hidden in the transmission case after I had supposedly drained it all out. Every time I tipped or turned the transmission, took another assembly off, it seems like another gallon of ATF poured out, over me, over the bench and all over the floor! In the future, I think I’ll see if I can get one of those autopsy tables to do the disassembly!

Preliminary comparison between the two shafts would make me think the swap is doable. Some quick photos:

The 1st and 2nd photos show both output shafts side by side. On the front section, they appear identical. The 3rd photo shows the shafts with the rear transmission case bearings in place. These bearing appear to be what positions the shafts longitudinally in the cases. The bearings are the same in both transmissions. So far lookin really good!

 

[astr]

Some more photos. The 1st photo shows the A440F T-case adapter on the back of the AW450 – a perfect fit! The 2nd photo compares the A440F T-case adapter with the AW450 extension housing. The position of the parking paw is the same in both transmissions. Still looking like this might work.

The next step is to call in the HAZMAT team to clean up all the oil!

 

[astr]

Just for comparison sake, I assembled the gear trains from both transmissions. The 1st photo shows them side by side. All the components are included, starting with the torque converter all the way through the output shafts. On the A440F assembly, I’ve included all the T-case input gear, the pto gear, all spacers and bearings. On the AW450 assembly, I included everything up through the output flange. Essentially, you have the complete gear trains with the cases stripped off (minus the First/Reverse Brake Assemblies which are still in the cases).

Most of the differences between the two assemblies are towards the torque converter ends and are as a result of additional beef in the AW450 transmission. Beginning at the output shafts, the differences appear minor.

The 2nd photo shows the A440F output shaft with all the associated components, mounted to the rest of the AW450 gear train. At this point, I’m very optimistic that there are no insurmountable obstacles to building this hybrid.

Next step will be to reinstall the AW450 rearmost portion of the AW450 gear train with the A440F output shaft into the AW450 transmission case and then try to mount the T-case adapter and the front portion of the split t-case to it.

 

[alia176]

EXCELLENT tutorial on the differences between the two trannys. A big THANK YOU for taking the time to detail all of this out and paving the way for the rest of us. I know that it can be a PITA to take pics during a project but your efforts are appreciated.

For some reason, every time I'm next to an Isuzu box truck, I keep looking to see if it's a NPR or a NQR!

Thanks again.

 

[astr]

EXCELLENT tutorial on the differences between the two trannys. A big THANK YOU for taking the time to detail all of this out and paving the way for the rest of us. I know that it can be a PITA to take pics during a project but your efforts are appreciated.

For some reason, every time I'm next to an Isuzu box truck, I keep looking to see if it's a NPR or a NQR!

Thanks again.

You are welcome. Actually, taking the pictures and posting the info helps me organize my own thoughts and provides me with documentation that will help me maintain the truck in the future.

By the way, the 4HE1TC w/Aisin AW450 transmission was used in the NQR trucks as well.