I need help with a very concerning loud clanging/rattling noise coming from my 1997 FZJ80 (5 Viewers)

[edwards_rljr]

I've tried to search this forum and I saw many posts about startup rattling noises, but I didn't see any that seemed to match my situation.

When I start my engine, after it has been sitting for hours, either overnight, or after I've been at work all day, it doesn't make this noise.

However, if I leave work, and drive a mile down the road and stop at the gas station and shut it off, fill it up, then start it back up , it makes this loud, metallic, clanging/rattling sound.

It only makes this sound after it's run for a short time, then is shut off, then started back up. It only makes the noise when starting. After it's running again, it stops making the noise and seems to be running normal. Revving the engine a little doesn't make the noise happen.

Has anyone heard of this specific situation, or know what might be the cause?

 

[Kernal]

Try to answer as many of these questions as you can and any other details you can:
(it would help if you could get a video recording of the noise)

How long does the noise occur, 1-2 seconds, 5-10 seconds, longer?

Does it sound like a very loud scary metallic grinding or more like a rattling?

Can you hear the noise if standing outside, hood open?

Do you see the oil pressure gauge (needle) move when the vehicle is started?

Where does the needle settle (about mid-scale or??)

Can you notice any difference in the oil pressure with a cold or hot engine ie: when the noise occurs?

How long does it take the oil pressure needle to move (one second, 5 seconds, longer?)?

What oil filter brand/model is installed?

Was the oi/oil filter changed recently, or has the oil filter been in use a long time ?? months)

What oil viscosity are you running?

What engine repairs or service has been done, in the past or recently before the noise started?
(any engine accessories replaced, starter, water pump, alternator, oil filter changed, belts replaced, ----)

Does the engine run normally otherwise?

 

[edwards_rljr]

Try to answer as many of these questions as you can and any other details you can:
(it would help if you could get a video recording of the noise)

How long does the noise occur, 1-2 seconds, 5-10 seconds, longer?

Does it sound like a very loud scary metallic grinding or more like a rattling?

Can you hear the noise if standing outside, hood open?

Do you see the oil pressure gauge (needle) move when the vehicle is started?

Where does the needle settle (about mid-scale or??)

Can you notice any difference in the oil pressure with a cold or hot engine ie: when the noise occurs?

How long does it take the oil pressure needle to move (one second, 5 seconds, longer?)?

What oil filter brand/model is installed?

Was the oi/oil filter changed recently, or has the oil filter been in use a long time ?? months)

What oil viscosity are you running?

What engine repairs or service has been done, in the past or recently before the noise started?
(any engine accessories replaced, starter, water pump, alternator, oil filter changed, belts replaced, ----)

Does the engine run normally otherwise?

The sound only lasts for as long as it takes to start the engine, so a couple of seconds maybe? As soon as the engine is running, the noise stops and seems to run fine. I don't hear the noise anymore while I'm driving. And again, I don't hear this noise when I'm starting it cold, after it's been sitting for 8 hours or more, I'm very routine, and typically only drive to work and back home. I'm only hearing this noise if I stop at the gas station on the way home and shut it off for a few minutes, then start it back up. Ever since Covid, I've been doing grocery pickup, so I don't even shut it off when I stop to pick up those orders. I mention that because I don't really have any other frame of reference for exactly how long it would have to be shut off to not make this noise. I just know that it hasn't done it after it has been sitting long enough to be completely cold, overnight , or while I'm at work.

It doesn't sound like grinding to me. The best I can describe is a loud metallic rattling sound, which is scary to me because it makes me worried that my engine is about to fail. This is not a small rattling sound, it's pretty loud. I will try to record it tomorrow with my phone.

I hear the noise while I'm inside the vehicle, starting it, so I'm sure I would be able to hear it if I was outside with the hood open, but I can't test that because I can't start it from outside the vehicle, and I don't have anyone to help me test anything, but like I said , it's pretty loud.

I will have to double check about the oil pressure gauge tomorrow. I'm not sure how long it takes for it to move, but it's always seemed to have normal oil pressure readings as far as I can remember.

I've been using the OEM Toyota oil filters for the 11 years that I've owned it, and I just changed the oil and filter about 3 or 4 months ago. I typically only drive less than 20 miles a day, just back and forth to work, so the oil isn't that old. It does leak some , but I always keep it checked and topped up. It's got almost 219k miles on it.

I've always used 10W30 oil, but I also add a quart of Lucas Oil Stabilizer when I change the oil. I've read good and bad opinions on the Lucas stuff, but I started adding it because I want the engine to last as long as possible, and they talk about it leaving a thin oil film on everything and "preventing dry starts", so it just seemed like a good idea.

As far as service or repairs go, a couple of years ago, I was having trouble with my battery not holding a charge, and it was a fairly new battery, so I figured maybe I needed a new alternator. I should've gone somewhere and had it tested, but I didn't. It looked pretty old, so I just decided to replace it. I did some reading on here, and ended up replacing the alternator, belts, idler pulley and fan clutch. ( I think I was also having a little squeaking noise at that time too). The alternator and idler pulley were OEM parts, I think the belts were Toyota too, but I can't remember what kind of fan clutch I bought. Those are the only engine related parts that have been replaced since I've owned it.

Yes, the engine seems to run normally after it is started. I haven't heard this noise any other time while driving.

 

[Kernal]

FWIW a few WAGS:

Something rotating is going bad:
Bearing in a component or pulley
Starter pinion shaft/gear not disengaging
The timing chain is loose ie: stuck timing chain tensioner

OR, the engine is starved for oil (collapsed filter, stuck pressure relief valve, plugged oil gallery, ---)

But then you said it occurs after the engine has already been started and run (without the noise) so the pressurized oil system should/would already be full.

A malfunctioning timing chain tensioner would allow the timing chain to slap around until the tensioner builds up enough pressure to tighten up the chain. But then, based on years of past forum threads, that tensioner seems to rarely fail (or get stuck).

For a loud grinding/clanging noise one possibility could be the pinion gear of the starter is staying engaged (pinion shaft pushed out and engaging the flexplate teeth) for half a second longer than it should after you start the engine. A weak/broken starter pinion shaft return spring could cause that IME.

Or the starter solenoid "magnetic switch" contacts and plunger are sticking together causing the starter to keep running after the key has been released and the engine is running.

Is the starter the original or an aftermarket replacement? If you don't know take a few photos of the starter looking for the manufacturer's label.

One thing you can do right now is to change your oil and filter, but do not add any Lucas thickener. That might eliminate one possible cause (collapsed oil filter).

 

[george_tlc]

I've replaced the starter motor in our 80 a few times (new since '97) and it's done the start and not disengage (contacts welded closed for a bit), a clunky start where the motor doesn't spin/run properly and finally the banshee where it makes a horrible screech when starting.

If what you hear essentially occurs only during the cranking time (other than the welded contact failure), then the starter is a likely candidate.

I just replaced the starter for the 3rd time since new and also replaced contacts/plunger a couple of times. Since you appear to daily your 80, it does get a lot of starts each year.

Yep, record and provide the 'noise' and more help will be forthcoming.

Kernal's list of questions are good.

cheers,
george.

 

[Tachycardic]

Without hearing the sound, it’s hard to give you an accurate diagnosis, but assuming that your vehicle runs fine and there is no CEL on, I’d check the simplest thing that can cause metal clanging—a missing exhaust hanger. Mine was completely gone and the back half of the exhaust pipe was hitting the frame causing the clanging sound.

 

[FIDO96]

I’m betting your starter is getting bad. My 97 would reengage once the engine was running and make a crazy grinding noise on start-up. Order a reman from dealership. I also found that getting a Tite Reach from Amazon makes a huge difference in removing the top bolt. Makes this a 30 minute job.

 

[subzali]

I would crawl under there and make sure the starter hasn’t loosened itself from the bell housing. And that your belts and tensioners are still snug. And look for anything else that might be loose in the engine bay or along the exhaust system. Catalytic converter heat shields can sometimes work themselves loose.

 

[edwards_rljr]

Thanks to all of you for all the replies and advice.

I tried to get a recording of the sound, but of course I couldn't get it to do it today.

I started it cold, after it had been sitting for over 24 hours, since I didn't go anywhere yesterday. It started up fine, and didn't make the loud rattling sound, which is the same as it has been when I start it cold.

The oil pressure gauge immediately moved up to the normal position between the two lines.

I let it run for a couple of minutes, then shut it off and let it sit for a few minutes, then started it again, and it still didn't make the noise. I let it run for another couple of minutes and shut it off again, let it sit for a few minutes, restarted it again, and it still didn't make the noise. Strangely, there was brief click when I started it that time, but then it started up again. There might be a problem with the starter. I was trying to look down in there at the starter , and it looks pretty old from what I could see. I couldn't see what brand it was though.

I've owned this '97 for almost 11 years, and the starter hasn't been replaced since I've owned it, so I don't know how old it is, or how long one should normally last.

I went ahead and ordered a new Denso starter. I figure that's a good place to start considering how the other one looks.

I also ordered one of those Tite-Reach Extention wrench sets with the low profile sockets.

I watched a video on Youtube by Timmy The Toolman showing how to replace the starter, and it doesn't look too hard

I wouldn't be surprised if there is more than one issue going on with my Cruiser though. I'm a little embarrassed to admit that I have fallen behind on a lot of maintenance, for various reasons.

I will continue to try to get a recording of the sound , and will update as soon as I can.

Thanks again for all of your input.

 

[Kernal]

The tricky part when removing the starter is getting enough torque on the rear facing 17mm bolt. You have to approach from underneath the vehicle, or you can try from above, just need a 1/2" drive longish flex head ratchet IIRC.

TIP: there are two identical bolts when looking up from behind the starter, one above the other, one is for the starter, the other is for the bell-housing, so pick the correct bolt. You can mark the correct bolt by reaching backwards while working on the front facing bolt from the left front wheel well, FWIW

IIRC I used a 1/2" extension and 1/2" drive breaker bar to get the rear bolt loose, do not try with a 3/8" extension, it will twist too much and nothing will happen.
If you have a good impact wobble joint and strong impact wrench you may be able to get that bolt loose using a short extension.

The front facing bolt is a bit easier to get to, a long flex head 1/2" drive ratchet helps.

 

[edwards_rljr]

The tricky part when removing the starter is getting enough torque on the rear facing 17mm bolt. You have to approach from underneath the vehicle, or you can try from above, just need a 1/2" drive longish flex head ratchet IIRC.

TIP: there are two identical bolts when looking up from behind the starter, one above the other, one is for the starter, the other is for the bell-housing, so pick the correct bolt. You can mark the correct bolt by reaching backwards while working on the front facing bolt from the left front wheel well, FWIW

IIRC I used a 1/2" extension and 1/2" drive breaker bar to get the rear bolt loose, do not try with a 3/8" extension, it will twist too much and nothing will happen.
If you have a good impact wobble joint and strong impact wrench you may be able to get that bolt loose using a short extension.

The front facing bolt is a bit easier to get to, a long flex head 1/2" drive ratchet helps.

I forgot to mention that I also ordered a set of Gearwrench 120XP Flex head ratchets after watching Timmy The Toolman's video. He said that it would be helpful. I only have a regular ratchet set, so it seemed like a good idea. He made the job look pretty easy, but I know it will not go so smoothly for me. Every time I ever try to work on my vehicles, I always run into some kind of problem, and a lot of times it's because I don't have the proper tool, bolts hard to reach, hard to get my hands in there, hard to get enough leverage to break them loose, bolts strip, etc. It seems like it's always something. Hopefully adding these tools will make this job easier... we'll see how it goes this time around.

 

[george_tlc]

I use 3/8 for both front and rear. Bolt facing front of vehicle, just a socket and 6" extension and a decent length 3/8" ratchet (mine has a swivel head). Remove DS front wheel, remove skirt and then you can remove the bolt that holds the brake line for a bit more access. Then go through from the skirt area and you're good to go. I like to get the ratchet snugged up and then give it a sudden 'jerk' in the unloosen direction to break the bolt free. Easy to then remove.

The bolt that faces the back of the vehicle, go in from under the vehicle, the 2 bolts that Kernal talks about, it's the top one that is the one you need to loosen. Again 3/8" drive and maybe a couple of extensions and a uni-joint 3/8" allows you to come in from a bit of an angle since the floorpan is the 'straight' path. Same trick, get the ratchet snugged up and then give it a jerk to break the bolt free.

3/8 extensions do have a little more 'twist', but are easier to get into the space you have to work with. 1/2 can be made to work. I've done both, but now prefer the 3/8.

Starter motor can be 'eased' out from the skirt area where you removed the skirt. Again, having removed the bolt on the brake line bracket will make it easier to get the starter out.

Before going to remove the starter, disconnect the starter +ve cable at the battery end. THEN, remove nut holding starter cable on the starter bolt and unclip the connector that powers the 'solenoid'.

Reverse to reinstall, connect +ve to battery as the last step. It's an easy 60 minute job, good time to inspect the brake pads on that side etc.

cheers,
george.

 

[Kernal]

Oh right, I forgot, last time I used an extra long flex head ratcheting box wrench and got the top bolt while working from the wheel well (not from below)
Here's one thread with a some good photos and discussion:

rear starter bolt ain’t moving (and front is a bitch too)

gents, i picked up a couple additional extenders for a 1/2” breaker bar and a 3/8” breaker bar and a 20” extension for it. i am comfortably working at it going back over the brace at the differential and just resting it in the lip at the sump. i am really cranking on it and it is not moving...

forum.ih8mud.com

 

[dmjay]

My lord, it is so painful to read through this. Just take it to a mechanic. Or failing that, somebody who knows what they are doing.
You could be doing real damage if you have no idea.