I might have killed my Orion

[Pin_Head]

But it's not the collar that wears much, if at all. It's the shift fork. I miked the new collar and found it to be within a couple of tenths (.0001") of the old one.

They wear and it only takes a little wear to cause them to pop out ot gear. I just took the clutch sleeve on the right out of my tansfer case because it was popping out of high. I measured the wear on it compared to the nearly new one on the left by measuring the backlash and calculating the total accumulated wear on the gear and sleeve. The new backlash was .030, while the worn parts were .075. The total calculated wear on the gear dog teeth and sleeve is approximately .012.

This particular case had a new clutch fork with no slop, so while a worn fork might contribute to popping out of gear, a new one won't prevent a worn clutch sleeve/gear from popping out of gear.

 

[Chef]

Pinhead...are you Charlie Glabe?

 

[peesalot]

pin head , given that the shift collar needs to be new or nearly , I only have 1 ? left about the orion , what is your take on the input gear thrusting forward into case ( without spacer ala tree) , how would that force effect the inner race on those of us that have bearings on the other side of seal ? There is no spud shaft so there is no shoulder to hold the inner race , it could IMO slide forward on the splines ( 10 & it is the replacement 420 output from A/A ( oldschool) and fry that bearing and let the gear contact case or


Am I worrying about nothin , run it ?

 

[Pin_Head]

Pinhead...are you Charlie Glabe?

You just figured that out? Where have you been? I am not trying to hide anything, but yet I don't want to make it easy for people at work to know that I am goofing off here during work hours.

what is your take on the input gear thrusting forward into case ( without spacer ala tree) , how would that force effect the inner race on those of us that have bearings on the other side of seal ? There is no spud shaft so there is no shoulder to hold the inner race , it could IMO slide forward on the splines ( 10 & it is the replacement 420 output from A/A ( oldschool) and fry that bearing and let the gear contact case or


Am I worrying about nothin , run it ?

My take on this is that it is only a problem for sm465 swaps using plate adaptors that didn't come with instructions. I have never run into a tranny where a gear could just flop back and forth on the shaft, because it needs to mesh with the gear that it is driving, so I don't think that this is a possibility with any other type of tranny or tranny swap that I know of.

It isn't going to put any force on any inner race because 1) for the sm465, the bearing retainer nut is in the way. 2) for the sm420 and H41, 42, etc, the gear is held solidly against the inner races and spacers which is right up against a stop on the end of the tranny output shaft.

The only way I have heard that it is a problem for the inner race is where people forget the spacer between the two bearings on the sm420 plate adaptor and then tighten the nut, forcing the inner race of the outer bearing forward. If the snap ring is installed on the outer race of the outer bearing, this will put a lot of pressure on the bearing, causing it to fail.

Unless you have a sm465 or sm420 with a plate adaptor and no spacer under the input gear, I would say run the hell out of it.

 

[woody]

My take on this is that it is only a problem for sm465 swaps using plate adaptors that didn't come with instructions. I have never run into a tranny where a gear could just flop back and forth on the shaft, because it needs to mesh with the gear that it is driving, so I don't think that this is a possibility with any other type of tranny or tranny swap that I know of.

lol....well put. Unfortunately, Classic Cruisers never offered any instructions with their adapter, and the only instructions for mine are what's online...

I never had the "flopping gear syndrome" that treeroot has experienced with his Orion install, and that has me more than a little perplexed....I installed the CC adapter in 1998, and switched to my 6061 adapter in early 2004, running that for 8 months with no problems....2 different transfer cases (1969 and 1972) and 2-3 fluid changes a year (habit...)

I need to dig my 69 t-case outta the pile and inspect it for wear....at this point, I wish I still had my sm465 available to test fit and understand this better....

 

[treerootCO]

I'll take any pictures you need Woody. The problem is not the plate style adapter. The problem is not using a spacer when you run a plate style adapter.

I would be willing to bet, the majority of people running a plate style adapter (sm465 specifically) are not running a spacer. I am guessing that most do not have a problem because of the tight fit of the gear to the output shaft. Metric vs. Standard or something because the gear is a really tight fit. It was a lot of work to pull the gear back off when I had the 465 on the bench. I probably screwed myself by putting that gear on and off so many times. By the time I installed everything together, the gear was tight but I could pull it off by hand.

 

[woody]

I'm checkin around right now for a sm465 to do some test fitting with.....lotta big iron boys in this part of the world....

I'll wager almost all aren't running a spacer...yer right that the gear fits tight, and I recall putting mine on with a hammer/drift, and cranking the retaining bolt/washer tight so the outer face of the gear was flush with the end of the tranny output shaft. I just can't imagine that the splines and seal were enuf to keep the gear from walking in....

 

[treerootCO]

The splines on the sm465 are tapered toward the bearing but the gear is hollow on that end. There is no reason the gear couldn't walk back like it did on mine.

 

[peesalot]

pin head , you just described my exact fawk up , no spacer between the two bearings , fawk , Mudrak confirmed this today and further enforced the fact that it will fry bearing and snap ring . arrrrrrgggggggggg, any ideas how long it'll last runnin this way ?????

 

[treerootCO]

Most of us have replied to the thread Steve started but if you haven't....

420 or 465 plate style adapter...
https://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=44926&page=1&pp=30

 

[Pin_Head]

pin head , you just described my exact fawk up , no spacer between the two bearings , fawk , Mudrak confirmed this today and further enforced the fact that it will fry bearing and snap ring . arrrrrrgggggggggg, any ideas how long it'll last runnin this way ?????

No telling. If you skipped the snap ring on the outer bearing, then the whole bearing would just be pressed farther forward, but the bearing would be fine. You would notice that something was wrong with the depth of the gear, since the teeth would be off about 1/8 from meshing properly.

If it was me, and I knew I was running around w/o the spacer, I would whip the Tcase out and put the spacer in. What, it might take 2-3 hours max? If the N307LOE bearing is trash, get a new one. No sense in having it fail catastrophically in some place out on the trail where it is difficult to fix.

 

[honk]

They wear and it only takes a little wear to cause them to pop out ot gear. I just took the clutch sleeve on the right out of my tansfer case because it was popping out of high. I measured the wear on it compared to the nearly new one on the left by measuring the backlash and calculating the total accumulated wear on the gear and sleeve. The new backlash was .030, while the worn parts were .075. The total calculated wear on the gear dog teeth and sleeve is approximately .012.

This particular case had a new clutch fork with no slop, so while a worn fork might contribute to popping out of gear, a new one won't prevent a worn clutch sleeve/gear from popping out of gear.

I found a neat .030" deep cut into one arm of one fork and a cut into both arms of another fork, one .008" and the other .015". The two forks were in the two 3 speed transfercases that I used to build one to use. Figuring that axial movement of the fork that large, or rather failing to move the collar that much would more likely be a cause of popping out of gear than the approx. equal radial runout I bought new fork and new collar. As far as I know neither box actually had popped out as one came from my partscar and the other from a neighbor. So to me a worn fork, given the sizable amounts of wear I found, would prevent a full axial movement toward engagement in one way only or in both ways. With the sloped teeth of both collar and dog gears any incomplete engagement can't hold for long.

 

[woody]

FYI: Pulled out my 69 t-case tonite, ran this case from 1998 thru 2000 or 2001....

there is zero wear on the alum case, I paid particular attention to the area by the seal, where the input gear would potentially ride against.......

However, my stock input gear appears different than yours treeroot....yours appears as if the 10-spline is only as thick as the outer teeth...my stock 1969ish input gear has 1-3/8" of spline length, and it appears to extend further towards the tranny itself.....is the input gear an Orion part, or reused from Toyota? (could be just an illusion with your photo....)

I'll have pics in the morning, stupid connector for the camera is in the office.....

 

[treerootCO]

The gear in the pic above is an Orion part, 10 spline. I'll have to check what OEM looks like when I get home.

I am pretty sure the splines are only as thick as the teeth on the AA gear. The SM465 has a flare on the output shaft that would prevent the gear from walking if the splines continued the legnth of the gear.

 

[woody]

my 3 pics from last night....I definitely think the stock gear has a longer spline area, and it's interference with the splines on the SM465 output prevents it from sliding too far inwards.....

hoping to have a SM465 in hand this weekend for testing, got a local guy huntin one down for me now....

 

[treerootCO]

Keep in mind this is not accurate at all. It does make me wonder though. I am still going to run a spacer but... Can somone grab an AA input gear and measure the splines?

 

[treerootCO]

Update on the parts order....I did give Dan the wrong part number. The high/low collar is still available. I also ordered the detent ball.

 

[mustardfj40]

treerootCO, is it a bigger detent ball? Any partno or what year of LC that has larger ball???

Thanks.

/td

 

[Pin_Head]

Bigger balls?

As a matter of fact, I was just sorting through my transfer case shift fork parts and the detent balls all appear to be the same. Early forks (up to '67 or so) seem to have coarse threads for the retaining screw, so early and late retaining screws and forks do not interchange.

 

[treerootCO]

I am just ruling out variables. The detent ball is probably just fine. I'll mic it and see for sure but I though that maybe it was worn or something. It isn't an expensive part so there is no big loss if it doesn't help.

Did anyone measure the splines on an AA input gear yet?