I might have killed my Orion
- Thread starter treerootCO
- Start date
This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate
links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.
treerootCO
Where are my keys?!
- Thread starter
- #202
one more for tonight....the gear floats from the point you see here to 1/4 closer to the transmission. The difference in the splines between the AA gear and OEM is 1/4. I am going to make a spacer that will fit between the bearing retainer of the transmission and the gear.
coiled40gary
76 FJ40; TLCA#6227
Boy, I just read this whole thread in one sitting. Alot of lunch there.
I will attempt to sumerize, I'm sure I missed a lot, so it would be nice if some one explained the important points I missed. I'm not someone who takes t-cases apart every day. If I had to do it for a living, I would have starved a long time ago. But I did put my own Orion together and install it. Of coarse I had to take it apart and do it again several times before I felt I got the insides together right. And I finally called Mudrack and realized I had an ordering problem with the thrust washers. I finally got the strain gage reading right on rotating the output shaft with the expected number of shims. I don't think any of the gears could move around. When I changed my fluid, I had a lot of fine stuff on the drain plug magnet, but nothing a large as a flake, and the oil did not look metalic. I have not had a problems yet with it popping out of any gears. But it does seem to weep fluid from every gasket, but my e-brake is still dry (for the first time in 20 years thanks to Mudrack's double seal). I probably have close to 1000 miles on it by now (short commuter miles). I will have to take off the inspection panels and take a look inside, did not know there were so many problems with this case. Good thing I bought a 5 gal tub of Torco MTF up front.
So anyways, if I followed the thread...
You changed your oil and saw a lot of dust on the magnet, and metalic looking fluid. You discovered this was due to a missing spacer on the tranny output shaft, which allowed the gear on the shaft to walk towards the tranny and wear into the t-case housing. This problem is more prevelent or only effects those with chevy trannies? Mine is mounted to an H41, and I seem to remember two spacers on the output shaft, one is the space for the optional PTO gear. I think the gears only lined up if I got the order of the spacers right. Leaking oil from the gaskets and speedo is common, I'm guessing I should just use some permatex, I used new stock gaskets dry. And the problem with popping out of gear is caused by re-using some of the old parts that were worn too much?
gary
I will attempt to sumerize, I'm sure I missed a lot, so it would be nice if some one explained the important points I missed. I'm not someone who takes t-cases apart every day. If I had to do it for a living, I would have starved a long time ago. But I did put my own Orion together and install it. Of coarse I had to take it apart and do it again several times before I felt I got the insides together right. And I finally called Mudrack and realized I had an ordering problem with the thrust washers. I finally got the strain gage reading right on rotating the output shaft with the expected number of shims. I don't think any of the gears could move around. When I changed my fluid, I had a lot of fine stuff on the drain plug magnet, but nothing a large as a flake, and the oil did not look metalic. I have not had a problems yet with it popping out of any gears. But it does seem to weep fluid from every gasket, but my e-brake is still dry (for the first time in 20 years thanks to Mudrack's double seal). I probably have close to 1000 miles on it by now (short commuter miles). I will have to take off the inspection panels and take a look inside, did not know there were so many problems with this case. Good thing I bought a 5 gal tub of Torco MTF up front.
So anyways, if I followed the thread...
You changed your oil and saw a lot of dust on the magnet, and metalic looking fluid. You discovered this was due to a missing spacer on the tranny output shaft, which allowed the gear on the shaft to walk towards the tranny and wear into the t-case housing. This problem is more prevelent or only effects those with chevy trannies? Mine is mounted to an H41, and I seem to remember two spacers on the output shaft, one is the space for the optional PTO gear. I think the gears only lined up if I got the order of the spacers right. Leaking oil from the gaskets and speedo is common, I'm guessing I should just use some permatex, I used new stock gaskets dry. And the problem with popping out of gear is caused by re-using some of the old parts that were worn too much?
gary
treerootCO
Where are my keys?!
- Thread starter
- #204
With a stock tranny or GM tranny with the AA 7" style adapter, you have three concerns above and beyond an OEM t-case rebuild/install.
Based on my personal experience, you need spacers on all three applications. For a stock t-case, the OEM gear is the same outside diameter so, for added insurance, you can run the same spacers mentioned above. The reason this issue came up was because my input gear walked toward the transmission and machined the inside of the case. The Orion gear has shorter splines inside and does not bottom out in the taper like an OEM gear.
Please correct me if I am wrong...these are only my observations. I am running an SM465 with a 3/4" spacer and the Orion. This setup is the one I have posted above. I cannot confirm nor deny the information on the other setups
- Leaking idler due to damaged o-rings.
- Possibly the issue with the t-case shifting into neutral from high.
- There was a third concern about the preload on the bearings but that has been resolved. (first set of instructions said foot pounds when it was actually inch pounds.)
- If you have an SM420 and the"extra" bearing in the adapter, you should have Toyota spacer (part number 90201-35070) between the bearings.
- If you have an SM420 and do not have the "extra" bearing, you need to run a spacer. Toyota part number 90560-35082 will work but has been discontinued.
- If you have an SM465, with a 3/4" adapter,you will need a spacer if you choose to run the Orion. I stacked two of the stock Toyota spacers (part number 90201-35070).
Based on my personal experience, you need spacers on all three applications. For a stock t-case, the OEM gear is the same outside diameter so, for added insurance, you can run the same spacers mentioned above. The reason this issue came up was because my input gear walked toward the transmission and machined the inside of the case. The Orion gear has shorter splines inside and does not bottom out in the taper like an OEM gear.
Please correct me if I am wrong...these are only my observations. I am running an SM465 with a 3/4" spacer and the Orion. This setup is the one I have posted above. I cannot confirm nor deny the information on the other setups
Last edited:
Blue77FJ40
SILVER Star
My Orion pops out of high and low. I used the original collar, and my detent is not screwed tight, only enough to fit the cotter pin, as I didn't know about those problems at the time.. At some point in the future, I could pull the top cover and tighten it, but for the time being, I use velcro straps. Leaks are minimal.
The good news is that on my third oil change with about a thousand miles total, it came out only slightly dark, with only a tiny amount of dust/stuff on the magnet.
The good news is that on my third oil change with about a thousand miles total, it came out only slightly dark, with only a tiny amount of dust/stuff on the magnet.
Curiosity compels me to ask, can you use the guts from a split case to build up an Orion?
Kirk
Kirk
very nice tree , upon talking with Mudrak in detail it is apparent that there is a spacer needed on the sm420 with " extra bearing " .
it goes between the tranny output bearing and the extra bearing .
am currently running without it and almost have it ready to drop and will report on what if any issues come up from running without spacer as you did.
it goes between the tranny output bearing and the extra bearing .
am currently running without it and almost have it ready to drop and will report on what if any issues come up from running without spacer as you did.
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2003
- Threads
- 144
- Messages
- 2,024
- Location
- Columbia, MO
- Website
- www.tornadoalleycruisers.com
spacer
Toyota Washer used between the bearings 90201-35070
from here:
http://www.iei.net/~msmythe/sm420/sm420_adapter.htm
thanks 'ghost!
Toyota Washer used between the bearings 90201-35070
from here:
http://www.iei.net/~msmythe/sm420/sm420_adapter.htm
thanks 'ghost!
treerootCO
Where are my keys?!
- Thread starter
- #209
Here is an odd twist...If I remember correctly, I bought the core I used to build my Orion from Mike, aka Spaceghost. I mocked up the SM465 with the same OEM spacer last night and I think two of them stacked up will work for the SM465. They kind of sit on the taper but I think it will work...I'll post up the results later tonight.
treerootCO
Where are my keys?!
- Thread starter
- #210
Update:
Thanks to Tim, Wes, Zach, and Ian we got the Orion back in the 40. I used two of the stock Toyota spacers (part number 90201-35070) for my spacer. This is the same Toyota Washer used between the bearings in the t-case. Because the output shaft is tapered, you have to grind the center out of one of the spacers ever so slightly. Just enough for it to seat on the bearing retainer. The whole assembly can be locked together without any additional load on the bearings and everything rotates together.
This is not the spacer Poser mentioned earlier. His is also a stock t-case part but that one is 3/4" thick. His works great for SM420 adapters without the "extra" bearing.
FJOakley...I will call you tomorrow. I think I have it figured out now.
Thanks to Tim, Wes, Zach, and Ian we got the Orion back in the 40. I used two of the stock Toyota spacers (part number 90201-35070) for my spacer. This is the same Toyota Washer used between the bearings in the t-case. Because the output shaft is tapered, you have to grind the center out of one of the spacers ever so slightly. Just enough for it to seat on the bearing retainer. The whole assembly can be locked together without any additional load on the bearings and everything rotates together.
This is not the spacer Poser mentioned earlier. His is also a stock t-case part but that one is 3/4" thick. His works great for SM420 adapters without the "extra" bearing.
FJOakley...I will call you tomorrow. I think I have it figured out now.
Last edited:
Looking forward to the call.
treerootCO
Where are my keys?!
- Thread starter
- #212
I'll PM you my number. It may be to early in the morning to be calling.
treerootCO
Where are my keys?!
- Thread starter
- #214
Good news!! I went wheeling yesterday and the Orion did not pop out of gear!! 
I will drain the oil after work today. Stay tuned......
We went up Jenny Creek trail by Rollins Pass and we were the first to get through this season. Made it .8 miles from the lake before it got dark. That is the road I am on in the pics, lots of runoff from the snow and the road follows the creek in a few sections.
I will drain the oil after work today. Stay tuned......
We went up Jenny Creek trail by Rollins Pass and we were the first to get through this season. Made it .8 miles from the lake before it got dark. That is the road I am on in the pics, lots of runoff from the snow and the road follows the creek in a few sections.
Awesome Mike. Glad you got it back on the road. Nice pics of Jenny Creek.
Great news - I guess I gotta rebuild mine again - 4th time......but at least I know it will be good.
Mike FYI I found the two thrust washers for John Elway Toyota for 6.00 each and they will do the shift collar for 55.00
Greg
Mike FYI I found the two thrust washers for John Elway Toyota for 6.00 each and they will do the shift collar for 55.00
Greg
treerootCO
Where are my keys?!
- Thread starter
- #218
Perfect 
. Can you take a picture of just the washers for me when you get them? I wanted to add that picture to the write-up.
I am still concerned about the SM420 guys with plate style adapters and the Orion input gear. Only reason is because I don't have anything to compare. In the pic below the face of the adapter is flush with the bearing retainer. From that point out there are my two new spacers and then the gear. From the pics I have seen, the SM420 with spacer or the "extra" bearing are also flush with adapter. Wouldn't they have the same problem or am I missing something?
. Can you take a picture of just the washers for me when you get them? I wanted to add that picture to the write-up.I am still concerned about the SM420 guys with plate style adapters and the Orion input gear. Only reason is because I don't have anything to compare. In the pic below the face of the adapter is flush with the bearing retainer. From that point out there are my two new spacers and then the gear. From the pics I have seen, the SM420 with spacer or the "extra" bearing are also flush with adapter. Wouldn't they have the same problem or am I missing something?
Last edited:
Texican
s-Moderator
treerootCO said:Perfect
I am still concerned about the SM420 guys with plate style adapters and the Orion input gear. Only reason is because I don't have anything to compare. In the pic below the face of the adapter is flush with the bearing retainer. From that point out there are my two new spacers and then the gear. From the pics I have seen, the SM420 with spacer or the "extra" bearing are also flush with adapter. Wouldn't they have the same problem or am I missing something?
The bearing used on the SM 420 plate style sticks out from the adapter about that much, so I reckon that is what you are missing.
Butch
treerootCO
Where are my keys?!
- Thread starter
- #220
I agree....does anyone have a better picture? This is seriously the best I could find on the internet other than Charlie's (the bearing was not fully seated in the pic though.)
