Hungry Valley trip and the things I learned

[Shahram]

Both times there was absolutely NO ABS. Pedal was hard but I did have the pedal all the way to the floor. Same thing on both attempts. First time I was kinda unsure but I verified at second attempt.

Wait, so...the pedal was hard, like the brakes weren't getting any assistance from the brake booster, or the brakes went to the floor, like there was no brake power from the master cylinder? Was it mushy or hard as a ******* rock?

And when you say "NO ABS", do you mean that there was no feedback whatsoever through the pedal from the ABS system?

 

[NLXTACY]

Wait, so...the pedal was hard, like the brakes weren't getting any assistance from the brake booster, or the brakes went to the floor, like there was no brake power from the master cylinder? Was it mushy or hard as a ******* rock?

And when you say "NO ABS", do you mean that there was no feedback whatsoever through the pedal from the ABS system?

Hard and I had to push like a futher mucker to get the pedal down. Second attempt tried to pump the brakes. There was no ABS pump sound, no pedal pulsing, nothing.

 

[Atticus]

I didn't see the hill, but one poster says he was amazed you didn't flip it, and now you're saying that it was a small hill. Which one is it?

I'm not saying you should live in fear, but you might want to consider thinking about unnecessary risk with a young passenger.

 

[NLXTACY]

Randy was amazed I didn't flip it because of how fast I was going. The hill itself isn't that big of a hill seriously. Its just steep at the top. But doesn't really make a difference if it was a small hill or large hill at the time.

Atticus, I pretty much prefer to enjoy my life and have fun and not let fear grip me. I make every attempt to make sure my family and I will be safe and I plan redundancy in my life. If you saw everything in my truck you'd know. Everytime I go off road its an "unnecessary risk". Everything I go camping in bear country its an "unnecessary risk". Everytime I go shooting with him its an "unnecessary risk", etc etc etc. My son will know danger and he will know how to look for it. I teach him everything I do right and everything I do wrong so that he knows for the future. When this incident happened he was full of ideas on what went wrong. And we discussed each of his ideas. I wont take him hang gliding over an active volcano but I make sure he will experience life right along my side until he is old enough to find his own fun.

 

[alia176]

Here's the link to the video made by TrickyT's son: The backward slide is from 1:00 to 3:00mins.

YouTube - Moab 08 Preview

Although it appears that the wheels are locked during my backwards slide, I can guarantee you that my CDL was off (7-pin mod done) and I was in 4-Low.

.

The guy before you climbed the hill so text book like ....

Ok, here's another point of view of the same video of Chitown40 climbing Launch Pad in Moab. No CDL locked, his first attempt ended with the passenger wheel spinning at the apex of the climb. No engine stall and he did back down in Neutral or at least that's what I think he did. On his second attempt, things went much smoother.

Hopefully this will help out this thread.

Utah Overland trip 2008 :: Rob climbing the Launch Pad in Golden Spike trail remix by alia176 - Photobucket

 

[Randy88FJ62]

Shahram,
To answer your question in post #92 regarding the stalling: Could it be possible that since he was gassing it into high RPM without front traction, the transmission and computer would think it's on the freeway and then lock up the trany? Transmission lock up is good on the freeway. Maybe since the CDL was not locked the computer assumed he was at highway speeds. maybe the computer would not lock up the trany if the CDL was locked, letting the computer know it was in 4WD and offroading. My guess is the trany locked up assuming it was going fast and since it was locked it stalled when the wheels would not move.

My bet is with the CDL and 7 PIN mod. I'm gonna throw out ABS for the moment.

 

[chitown40]

The guy before you climbed the hill so text book like ....

Touche!

 

[Shahram]

I didn't see the hill, but one poster says he was amazed you didn't flip it, and now you're saying that it was a small hill. Which one is it?

I'm not saying you should live in fear, but you might want to consider thinking about unnecessary risk with a young passenger.

Dude, we live in L.A. The San Fernando Valley, to be exact. Just driving here is taking an unnecessary risk. Considering there's a good chance some text-messaging eighteen year old girl in a tuned up 55 AMG is probably going to smash into you doing 168 mph in the slow lane (Oh my God! Like, my exit!), we Angelenos del Valle tend to overlook lesser dangers, like low-speed rollovers.

Seriously, though. Low-speed rollovers aren't normally fatal, as long as your cargo is well secured, and you have your seat belt on. From what I've seen, the roof of the 80 is pretty well-equipped to hang out on its lid.

 

[Shahram]

Shahram,
To answer your question in post #92 regarding the stalling: Could it be possible that since he was gassing it into high RPM without front traction, the transmission and computer would think it's on the freeway and then lock up the trany? Transmission lock up is good on the freeway. Maybe since the CDL was not locked the computer assumed he was at highway speeds. maybe the computer would not lock up the trany if the CDL was locked, letting the computer know it was in 4WD and offroading. My guess is the trany locked up assuming it was going fast and since it was locked it stalled when the wheels would not move.

I don't know...your guess is better than mine, in this case. I can't think of a situation in which the Cruiser would get high RPMs in the front, spinning front tires with no spin in the rear, and then stall out.

When mine stalled out a couple of weeks ago, I was rolling backwards in drive, CDL locked, ABS disengaged, with both FR and RR lockers engaged. I figured I wasn't going to make it up the obstacle, stopped, contemplated switching into reverse, decided to roll back in drive instead, and did so. The obstacle was short and really steep, with a long runway. When I got to the bottom of the runway, I noticed that I had stalled somewhere up the line. I put it in neutral, restarted, my buddy and I shrugged it off, and we moved on.

 

[hawaiicruz]

Tires wouldn't make me roll backwards at a high rate of speed. For the coolant mod you need to click the link and read up

Saved my ass on a few occasions now. It actually went off again last week and found yet another failed clamp. So I ordered ALL new hoses from CDAN and I ordered $200 worth of Breeze Constant Torque clamps to hopefully get rid of that issue.

Good Tires may not have stopped you from rolling backwards at a high rate of speed but may of helped you get up that last bit of hill without losing traction




I always thought that was called temp guage mod thanks for the heads up

P.S. after all these posts about unlocked CDLs I'm rethinking the CDL switch install, it's nice to have it idiot proof since I definitely qualify

 

[24HOURSOFNEVADA]

The guy before you climbed the hill so text book like ....

Ali the God of Amps and Ohms, proving he can drive as well. Nice display.

 

[mainemike]

Why is there a common denominator in this thread of people using neutral when they stop on a hill and decide to roll backwards? Using reverse is the safer option.

The other technique I'm seeing is a lot of heavy brake on the reverse descent. It's counter-intuitive (to overcome the pucker factor), but if you have the roll-out room its better to avoid the brake on the slope and just let it roll, keep it straight and then brake hard on the flats. Its harder to keep the the truck in a straight line when the front wheels are dragging on slope. Maybe not so imperative on slickrock but in a loose dirt/gravel hillclimb heavy front brake will risk swinging the front end sideways, jumping out of the tracks and setting you up for a roll.

I was taught to use reverse gear, no brake until you reach the base. Obviously the length of climb is a factor here, but these have been pretty short.

And on the video of Chitown40 on Launch Pad, the spectator in the red shirt has chosen to sit in the death zone. Very bad place to actually sit down - at minimum stay on your feet.

Not trying to be hyper-critical of fellow mudders, and the video links are really great to see but we can all learn to do things in a safer manner, and these jumped out at me.

 

[chitown40]

I agree that in most cases it would be better to lay off the brakes, but on the bottom of Launch Pad it.. well.. solid rock bumper bashing sandstone.

Wouldn't being in neutral take the transmission out of the equation? I don't think that the added rearward momentum created by the reverse gear really would help the cause. That's my take on it.. but don't claim to be an automotive whiz.. just using common sense.

 

[mainemike]

chitown - excellent point I was missing about the base approach angle being too severe; so to hit that with any momentum is out of the question. Gotta use brake on that descent. My armchair critique was critically flawed - nothing like actually being there, huh?

As for the neutral choice; you need neutral to restart an automatic from a stall; but then I would use reverse. Neutral is a skateboard. You never choose neutral for a forward-facing steep descent, so why use it for reverse? I agree it seems like you would want neutral to avoid the concept of reverse gear 'accelerating' you backwards, but overall, if something goes wrong, reverse gear is what you want to help decelerate.

That is a general rule, but maybe on Launch Pad, with the deadly kink at the bottom, that is moot point. I'll defer to those who have been-there-done-that.

 

[Atticus]

Randy was amazed I didn't flip it because of how fast I was going. The hill itself isn't that big of a hill seriously. Its just steep at the top. But doesn't really make a difference if it was a small hill or large hill at the time.

Atticus, I pretty much prefer to enjoy my life and have fun and not let fear grip me. I make every attempt to make sure my family and I will be safe and I plan redundancy in my life. If you saw everything in my truck you'd know. Everytime I go off road its an "unnecessary risk". Everything I go camping in bear country its an "unnecessary risk". Everytime I go shooting with him its an "unnecessary risk", etc etc etc. My son will know danger and he will know how to look for it. I teach him everything I do right and everything I do wrong so that he knows for the future. When this incident happened he was full of ideas on what went wrong. And we discussed each of his ideas. I wont take him hang gliding over an active volcano but I make sure he will experience life right along my side until he is old enough to find his own fun.

No, enjoying life is a necessary risk. Let's say you took your kid shooting. That's great, and I highly endorse it. Is it dangerous? Sure, but so what? Anyway, your shotgun hangfires and sparks shoot out of the receiver when your kid shoots it. He's fine, no big deal. Do you let him shoot the shotgun again?

Anyway, I digress. It sounded to me like you came barrelling down a hill in such a way that you were in danger of rolling over, and that it caused you concern that you were going to hurt your kid and your dog (hence the conversation with the wife), but now it sounds like you are saying it was not that big a deal, that you were going at a slow speed, and that it wasn't that dangerous. I don't know which, and I wasn't there. That's why I said, "I want to make sure I understand." Clearly I misinterpreted what you were saying, because you are telling me that you would not intentionally endanger someone you care about (I'm not going to hangglide over an active volcano), and I have to take your word on that.

If the situation is really dangerous, and you know that the first time you tried it you nearly bit it, you wouldn't do it again, because that would be negligent, right?

 

[Atticus]

Dude, we live in L.A. The San Fernando Valley, to be exact. Just driving here is taking an unnecessary risk. Considering there's a good chance some text-messaging eighteen year old girl in a tuned up 55 AMG is probably going to smash into you doing 168 mph in the slow lane (Oh my God! Like, my exit!), we Angelenos del Valle tend to overlook lesser dangers, like low-speed rollovers.

Seriously, though. Low-speed rollovers aren't normally fatal, as long as your cargo is well secured, and you have your seat belt on. From what I've seen, the roof of the 80 is pretty well-equipped to hang out on its lid.

I forgot that everybody who drives in LA is a hardened combat veteran. You and I both know that we're talking about two very different things. Is whether or not the accident will be fatal to a child passenger the only consideration you have? Of course not.

 

[Hayes]

CDL / 7-pin mod should not be blamed for the problem. All this mod does is give more control and responsibility to the user--a level of control and responsibility that is in no way exceptional. Forgetting to lock the center diff is forgetting to put your rig in 4 wheel drive. That's user error.

Like Christo pointed out, once you unload the front axle on a steep climb, you're spinning an open diff between the axles, lose go power to the rear axle, and are liable to roll backward. It sounds like some here have reasoned that rolling backward in drive can logically stall the engine--is this disputed or established?

As far as the brake issue goes, I'm favoring the the ABS being the culprit. Light front axle + single channel ABS on the rear axle = the system lets the wheels keep rolling.
Anyone care to stall their truck and roll backwards with the center diff locked?

 

[NLXTACY]

If the situation is really dangerous, and you know that the first time you tried it you nearly bit it, you wouldn't do it again, because that would be negligent, right?

Do you ever NOT think like an lawyer?

Go outside and enjoy the sunlight a little.

 

[Atticus]

Do you ever NOT think like an lawyer?

Go outside and enjoy the sunlight a little.

I think more like a guy who grew up in Alabama and have seen people hurt and killed by playing with their toys in a way that is unsafe, and making unsafe decisions. I have known people who have been shot, who have lost limbs to winch cables snapping, who have lost fingers and hands to guns, chainsaws, and fireworks, lost eyes, died on fourwheelers, drowned, and flipped cars and died. That's my background on the subject, and combined with raising my own son, I was only pointing out to you the inherent and unnecessary danger of what you were doing THE SECOND TIME. If you think I'm wrong, or being a nanny about it, that's your prerogative. I don't really care. I am amused that you would pack everything in the whole entire world into your little hiking survival pack, but won't use a little common sense to avoid an unnecessary, serious, and potentially life-threatening situation. You had been made aware that there was a problem, yet you persisted. Sounds more like an ego thing to me.

Anyway, if you want me to think like a lawyer, here you go:
1. you were put on NOTICE that you had a possible defect in your vehicle and that there was a high likelihood of HARM that occur to yourself or your passenger as a result of that defective condition.
2. notwithstanding that NOTICE, you persisted in your behavior, unnecessarily endangering yourself and your passenger.

That's my take on it. I'm sorry I come across as some handwringing worrier, but I'm not. I've just seen what happens when people don't understand the gravity of what they're doing.

 

[NLXTACY]

<dick hat on> Atticus, those deaths in Alabama I attribute to Natural Selection. <dick hat off>

First time I was convinced that I did something wrong. Trail/path was clear, straight, flat, no ruts, no people, no vehicles. I took "the risk" the second time knowing my surroundings and being convinced it was my own actions on the first attempt. Second attempt was to verify and/or correct. It wasn't an ego thing at all. I needed to know what my error was so that I would not repeat the same actions next time.

So from here lets see if we can solve the issue at hand instead of being scolded by Uncle Touchy about why I'm a bad father