Help me get the Heirloom to start!

[Heirloom]

Hi everybody. I'm finally trying to start the engine I assembled long ago for my rebuild (thread in signature). Currently, I know I have fuel delivery. I have aligned all the distributor pieces statically, but the timing light does not flash on the flywheel BB when cranking. The best ignition I have gotten is an inconsistent cough.

I have not tried starting fluid yet, I hope to get it starting on gas. New cap, rotor, points, and condenser. Old coil. New wires and plugs. I have all vacuum ports connected/capped, so no leaks there.

Couple questions:

Wil an old school inductive timing light flash at the right time while cranking, or does the engine need 800 RPM for the timing light to work correctly? Again, my only indication for timing is that it is together and aligned when I statically set the engine at #1TDC. I haven't been able to verify the timing (dynamically) with a timing light. The timing light does flash, showing that current is pulsing through the spark plug wire. I do not see the flywheel timing marks when it flashes while cranking.

What basic needle settings do you recommend for the SD40 for initial start up (1966 F135 built to factory specs)? I know the carburetor is delivering fuel, but I am not sure the ratio is correct. Seems like there should be some sort of ignition even if the air/fuel ratio is bad, at least enough to get the engine to kick when I try to start it.

Any trouble shooting ideas welcomed. Thanks.

 

[Ian Macdonald]

When I first bought my rig, I found the PO had removed the timing mark pointer. I had to install a new one. Just a thought.

 

[tlc762]

First question- do you have oil pressure? Make sure of this before you continue trying to start- you don't want to seize your brand new engine. If you haven't yet I would prime the engine using a screwdriver chucked in a drill ( run Clockwise) then check the gauge to confirm you have oil pressure... You will need to remove the distributor to do this which leads us to #2.

Second question- could you have stabbed the distributor in 180 degrees out of time? IE- tdc of exhaust stroke not intake stroke.

I agree that if you are getting a flash on the timing light you should be firing, you can confirm by grounding a plug to the engine block. (remove plug and hold it close to the block and watch for the spark jump to the block when it fires)
HTH,
Will

 

[73FJ40]

If all the above checks out, I would align the flywheel bb with the pointer, then put a thin white line on the harmonic balancer in line with a match mark on the block, same side as the dizzy. When you crank it, you can shoot the Timing light at the harmonic balancer, to get a better idea of how far you're off. You may be able to dial in the correct timing by turning the dizzy, unless you're so far off you can't see the line on the balancer.

 

[snaggletto]

Pull the rocker cover. When at TDC on the intake stroke the intake rocker will be loose. This is where you want to set your timing. As mentioned, the tang on the end of the distributor drives the oil pump. Make sure the distributor is fully seated, and verify oil pressure when cranking.

 

[Heirloom]

Thanks for the replies. I have confirmed #1TDC is at the top of the compression stroke. Why would I want spark during intake stroke? At TDC, I have just enough slack to twist the push rods. Also at TDC, the rotor is pointed where the #1 wire is on the cap, and the distributor points are closed.

The timing pointer in the bell housing is intact. I like the idea of painting marks on the harmonic balancer and timing cover. Yes, my distributor is fully stabbed and making oil pressure.

I'm wondering if the timing light is reliable at the slow cranking RPM.

Also, any carburetor gurus that have some basic needle settings for the SD40 on a stock F135 are welcome to participate in this thread.

Update/edit:

Grounding the spark plug does not get a spark to generate. My test light indicates incoming power (12v+) to the coil, but the output to the condenser (coil terminal) is not making my test light illuminate. Should that be constant on, or dependent on the point closing the circuit?

Edit 2: the coil-to-condensor circuit works, and blew out the filament in my test light. It flashes when the points close and doesn't illuminate when the points open.

 

[tlc762]

Why would I want spark during intake stroke?

What I should have said was the compression stroke- cylinder full of unburned gas/air mix not full of burned mix (exhaust).

I'm wondering if the timing light is reliable at the slow cranking RPM.

I do't see that it would make a difference the rpm of the engine as the pickup senses the current in the plug wire and the speed of the current is constant regardless of the rpm of the engine. The power supply to the light is the battery so it doesnt change with rpm either.
HTH,
Will

 

[Heirloom]

Thanks for the reply. I feel more confident on timing. I have used an in-line spark plug test light and gotten no blinks from it (verified the light function with another vehicle). Grounding a plug on the engine yields no spark either.

My coil gets hot when the ignition is switched on. Is this normal?

The coil says "external voltage regulator required", but I have factory wiring. I am not aware of any voltage regulators for the ignition system, nor does either the chassis or engine FSM indicate a regulator.

Is there a way to test a coil without specialized coil-testing equipment? I can operate a multimeter just fine. What terminal/circuit would the coil resistor be mounted with?

 

[tlc762]

To borrow a phrase from our down under brethren- You need an "auto sparky" on your coil testing question. I am unfamiliar with the details of your earlier cruiser ignition system in detail(points type system with original coil), however the phrase "external voltage regulator required" leads me to bellieve that you need a ballast resistor inline to that coil as it was not designed to be fed a full 12+ volts for any extended length of time. I know some/many of the early 70's trucks have an extra terminal/wire on the starter which will feed 12 volts to the coil when the key is in the start position to aid in cold weather conditions. When you release the key from start the power to the coil reverts back to the run circuit which uses the ballast resistor to limit current to prevent overheating the coil. The resistence across the + and - terminals in ohms will tell you the appropriate answer to the ballast resistor question- however you will have to search for the appropriate values (read about it in other threads but can't quote the numbers) or wait for better answer from someone who knows more that me about the point type systems (all mine use an electronic type ignition of one type or another without ballast resitor type coils)
HTH,
Will

 

[Heirloom]

So I tested the coil resistance according to the process in this link:

How to Diagnose and Test an Ignition Coil

And have 2ohm between the primary terminals and 10k ohms between the + terminal and the tower.

 

[Heirloom]

To borrow a phrase from our down under brethren- You need an "auto sparky" on your coil testing question. I am unfamiliar with the details of your earlier cruiser ignition system in detail(points type system with original coil), however the phrase "external voltage regulator required" leads me to bellieve that you need a ballast resistor inline to that coil as it was not designed to be fed a full 12+ volts for any extended length of time. I know some/many of the early 70's trucks have an extra terminal/wire on the starter which will feed 12 volts to the coil when the key is in the start position to aid in cold weather conditions. When you release the key from start the power to the coil reverts back to the run circuit which uses the ballast resistor to limit current to prevent overheating the coil. The resistence across the + and - terminals in ohms will tell you the appropriate answer to the ballast resistor question- however you will have to search for the appropriate values (read about it in other threads but can't quote the numbers) or wait for better answer from someone who knows more that me about the point type systems (all mine use an electronic type ignition of one type or another without ballast resitor type coils)
HTH,
Will

I have heard/read the things you are referencing, but I also have a 1966 F135 FSM that has this image with no reference to a resistor.

Edit: primary coil should be 3-4 ohms and secondary coil should be 6k to 8k ohms, according to the FSM. Looks like my coil is slightly out of spec... Maybe replaced with the wrong part at some point before I got the rig. If there were a short, the secondary circuit in the coil would read lower than 6k ohms, by my logic... Right?

 

[edwjmcgrath]

are you sure that the coil says external voltage "regulator" required?
coils usually come with or without external ballast "RESISTOR" required.

 

[Heirloom]

are you sure that the coil says external voltage "regulator" required?
coils usually come with or without external ballast "RESISTOR" required.

The coil says:

885782 universal heavy duty 12 volt coil oil filled
Use with external resistor
Made in Japan

Bench test shows 2 ohms on primary coil circuit and 10,000 ohms on secondary circuit. No spark when I ground the plugs, but there is enough going through the wire to induce the timing light signal.

Edit: As I research this, the resistor has little effect on the functionality of the coil to produce spark. The resistor only seems to be useful for (a) protecting electronic ignition modules (not a concern here), or (b) extending the life of the breaker points. My points are brand new. My first concern is getting the engine to start, I can add a resistor later.

So, what step is my next step in diagnosing my no-spark problems without throwing parts at this?

 

[db3]

Assuming you have done the static timing correctly, which seems to be the case, you need to verify the operation of the primary circuit. Recheck the proper points gap, which actually should be set with an old school dwell meter, but carefully using a feeler gauge will usually get you close enough. Watch the points while cranking; you should see sparks. If not, try replacing the condenser. Also, verify your connections. One time I found a frayed wire which was grounding the primary circuit under the advance plate. As for checking spark, buy a spark tester, which clips onto the block. OTC makes a good one. It is the only way to verify adequate spark is available at the plug. An inductive timing light will work while cranking, but does not tell you if you have enough voltage at the plug. It will however, verify your timing is correct.

I just reread one of your earlier posts, where you checked the static timing. With #1 at TDC, the points should be open, not closed.

 

[emac]

Make sure your points are installed correctly and have enough gap, rotor installed?

It seems you have the timing correct, but no spark at the plugs. Check for spark on the coil wire. place it close to ground and crank the motor and see if you get spark. If yes, then check inside the dizzy for an issue. If no then go to the coil. I have never run points without a ballast resistor with a coil that says it needs externsl resistor, so I dont know if that is possible. Work your way back to find why you dont have spark. Probably something simple. Coils are pretty cheap, you may want to try a new one.

 

[Heirloom]

So, I need to advance the distributor timing just enough that the points open at #1 TDC? I set the point gap with feeler gauges. Points and condenser are new when I rebuilt the distributor (not a full rebuild, just full cleaning and replaced consumable parts).

I found a coil listed for the 1966 FJ40 that has internal resistor for $20 locally, so I'll get one of those. Stay tuned for pictures and updates.

 

[emac]

You dont have spark at the plugs. I think you need to find out why. Unless engine timing is crazy wrong you should still get some popping when starting, and you can rotate the dizzy while starting to get it going. No fire, no start.

 

[Heirloom]

You dont have spark at the plugs. I think you need to find out why. Unless engine timing is crazy wrong you should still get some popping when starting, and you can rotate the dizzy while starting to get it going. No fire, no start.

Agree.

Update: I have spark at the coil that discharges in sync with the breaker points cycling, as verified with the distributor cap/rotor/dust shield removed. This is using a new coil with internal resistor, as specified for a 1966 F135.

Still no spark at the plugs.

With ignition turned on, breaker point terminal on the distributor cycles between grounded and open when distributor turns. With ignition off, this terminal is always grounded, no matter if points are open or closed. Is that correct functionality?

Images in case you see that I assembled something wrong.

Point gap is specified at 0.016-0.020 inches in FSM. Feeler gauge verifies these points currently open to 0.019".

 

[emac]

Ok, if you have spark at the coil wire going into the dizzy, then I would assume the points are doing their thing. The opening of the points tells the coil to shoot spark down the coil wire to the dizzy. You have spark at the end of the coil wire, correct? If so, make certain the rotor, rotor button (the part on the cap that touches the rotor) and cap are good and clean.

 

[Heirloom]

Ok, if you have spark at the coil wire going into the dizzy, then I would assume the points are doing their thing. The opening of the points tells the coil to shoot spark down the coil wire to the dizzy. You have spark at the end of the coil wire, correct? If so, make certain the rotor, rotor button (the part on the cap that touches the rotor) and cap are good and clean.

Rotor and cap are brand new. I need a way to check for a closed circuit while assembled. Can I reasonably expect that the center terminal will have low resistance to the #1 terminal on the cap at TDC, verifiable with a multimeter? I can't think of another way to verify conductivity between the cap and rotor while assembled.