Help diagnosing potential dead starter

[nbailz]

Hello

Been an interesting couple of weeks. I apologize for the length of this, so i appreciate it if you make it through this and can offer up some insight.

2002 LX with 171k miles. My guess is starter is original (alternator was original) and i don't see records of it, and records are solid except for about 157k to 167k.

Replaced my heater t's, hoses, clamps 3 weeks ago without issue. I got the wires in the back of the engine a little wet when i cut the hose, but wiped it down and didn't start it for a good 45 mins to an hour. I only mention this to be thorough. My mechanic thinks i am being paranoid and that it's unrelated.

2 days later I'm making a home depot run and the battery light flashes, radio goes on/off, i'm thinking i shorted wires from the heater t job or something. I get it towed to my mechanic and he confirms the alternator went out. Great. Got that replaced. Was too busy to do it myself. I noticed the radio go on/off a couple times the day before, but i thought it was just my music cutting out. Other than that, really no obvious sign the alternator was on its way out.

About a week later (today) I've driven the truck to/from work a few times (40 mile round trips) and took it on another 40 mile run yesterday after changing diffs and t-case fluids. Ran great!

I go to start it today to do ahc flush/transmission drain/fill, and i get 2 clicks, but truck doesn't start. Try it again and don't hear any clicking this time so i'm thinking starter. Again, i really didn't notice this on its way out. It has always started without issue.

Call up my mechanic, we both agree it doesn't seem to be battery (lights are super bright, don't dim with key turning). I've had a dead battery about 6 months ago, but haven't had any issues afterwards (my fault for letting it drain).

I saw this thread and checked my EFI fuse post #20: 2002 LC100 - Not Starting... ??? Fuel Pump ??? ... my check engine light turns on and both my EFI fuse and relay look good so i think i've ruled this out.

So that's where i'm at. I saw this youtube video where it jumps the starter using the starter relay:

My question is...has anyone had any luck with that? Any risk to doing this? Any extra detail you could offer for this specific relay? Unfortunately i can't just bang on the starter.

Another thing i read on here is it could be related to a ground that's not connected or something along the lines of that. How would i test that?

Thanks for reading.

Edit: i missed this thread ( Please tell me it's not the starter again... ), which has me leaning towards dead starter. will double check terminals tomorrow, but those looked pretty good when i looked earlier. I don't think it's an immobilizer issue ( My immobilizer fix ) because it doesn't crank. That thread looks like it answers my question on how to jump the starter using the relay, though.

 

[nbailz]

I was able to get it started up this morning and moved into my garage. Pulled the codes and got: P0335 and P0340 so i'm about 99% confident it's my starter after referencing the thread below.

100 series UZJ100 won't crank - . codes P0335 and P0340

forum.ih8mud.com

I'll leave this up here in case anyone else searches and finds this.

I can't believe i had the alternator and starter go out within a week, but i guess it's this truck's way of saying it wants the timing belt job done as well while i'm at it. Was hoping to hold off til the summer. Wish me luck!

 

[flintknapper]

^^^^^
Classic Starter Solenoid Symptoms.

Best to replace the starter, rebuild the old one for a spare.

Anytime it 'clicks' but won't turn the engine over you can take a long wooden dowel or other object long enough to reach the starter solenoid through the space in the intake manifold (passenger side) and rap it a few times. More often than not, this will get the starter contacts to work enough to get you going...BUT the starter is being 'nice' and forewarning you to replace/repair it.

 

[2001LC]

In 06-07 VVT engine, you can not tap on starter. In all other years you can, difficult but can be done, thought space between intake manifold venture tubes.. I've used the tire tool.

But to have both start and alternate bad at 177K, may indicate a bad battery, connections or both. Could be alternator was fine. Battery connections/post build oxidation, which increases resistance. Then battery does not get a full charge. Over time, this damages battery (sulfate). Over time this lower voltage to starter, can wear contacts fasteners than normal.

First thing I'd do, is pop in a full charged battery, with clean and grease connections (post & clamps). I look for 13.2v as I pull battery off my trickle charger or at ~12.9V as battery sets awhile. Below 12.7v is problematic in 03-up. I've seen many act as if bad starter under 12.7V

 

[flintknapper]

In 06-07 VVT engine, you can not tap on starter. In all other years you can, difficult but can be done, thought space between intake manifold venture tubes.. I've used the tire tool.

Did not know that. Good info for future use, thanks.

 

[nbailz]

In 06-07 VVT engine, you can not tap on starter. In all other years you can, difficult but can be done, thought space between intake manifold venture tubes.. I've used the tire tool.

But to have both start and alternate bad at 177K, may indicate a bad battery, connections or both. Could be alternator was fine. Battery connections/post build oxidation, which increases resistance. Then battery does not get a full charge. Over time, this damages battery (sulfate). Over time this lower voltage to starter, can wear contacts fasteners than normal.

First thing I'd do, is pop in a full charged battery, with clean and grease connections (post & clamps). I look for 13.2v as I pull battery off my trickle charger or at ~12.9V as battery sets awhile. Below 12.7v is problematic in 03-up. I've seen many act as if bad starter under 12.7V

Thank you for your advice!

I hadn't turned on my truck in about 12 hours since i was able to start it and get it in my garage and i am getting 12.2V; i know that's probably not a great data point, but just tossing it out there. When i turned it on i was getting 14.2V. Except for the codes, it started like it normally would before all this. Terminals aren't corroded, but aren't greased. My shop ran an electrical system test when it was in for the alternator, and i know they would've loved to put a new battery in if it failed the test, but i'm having them locate it so i can confirm that.

Given my shelter in place order i'm a bit hesitant of going off and picking up a battery since this is technically my 2nd vehicle. Did some research on here and see that the Duracell 27F from Batteries Plus is a decent choice for ~$135. I don't have access to the Costco interstate, unfortunately. I haven't been able to get hold of Toyota to see how much they charge, but i know you recommended that.

 

[2001LC]

If you're saying, before attempt to start, you read 12.2V at battery with a volt meter. That will make seem as if starter bad.

I get Toyota batteries for about $125 w/7yr wty.

Battery post clean and dry will build oxidation. We grease the battery post and clamp to prevent oxidation.

 

[nbailz]

@2001LC I think we are saying the same thing. Before i attempt to start, it was reading 12.2V with volt meter.

Sounds like cheapest course of action would be like you said, buying a new battery, clearing codes, and see if i get any issues with the starter before going further. Thanks again for your advice.

 

[2001LC]

Even with a new battery, post need cleaned and greased.

 

[nbailz]

Even with a new battery, post need cleaned and greased.

Will do. Finally got hold of Parts. They want $156 before tax for the True Start 84 month. They don't cut me any slack there.

 

[2001LC]

Still not bad for 84mo's

 

[gregnash]

Yeah sounds pretty similar to what mine was doing. My issue was that on colder nights (dropping below about 35*) the next morning I would get the dreaded click. New starter has fixed my issue. Since you have a shelter in place order, now would be the time to purchase a rebuilt kit (brushes and everything) or new reman'd starter and tear the intake off. I literally got mine done by a shop the week before SHTF, cost me $1100 all said and done (with old starter coming back to me, not cored) so I could have saved myself A LOT of money.

 

[nbailz]

Yeah sounds pretty similar to what mine was doing. My issue was that on colder nights (dropping below about 35*) the next morning I would get the dreaded click. New starter has fixed my issue. Since you have a shelter in place order, now would be the time to purchase a rebuilt kit (brushes and everything) or new reman'd starter and tear the intake off. I literally got mine done by a shop the week before SHTF, cost me $1100 all said and done (with old starter coming back to me, not cored) so I could have saved myself A LOT of money.

Yeah this whole thing has been annoying and i feel your pain on the timing. I was going to take care of ALL of the PM stuff in June/July and would've saved about $400 on the alternator job by doing it myself. As i mentioned, i had my mechanic install the new alternator (reman Denso) as well as a couple other small things and that was $600. My quote to do the reman starter job along with intake clean is $800. Not bad, but i agree...while i am in there means i'm not only doing the starter job, but i may as well tackle timing belt, radiator, leaking valve cover gaskets, spark plugs, and the other "while you're in there" things for about $1200-$1500 worth of parts with tax/shipping.

edit: by "whole thing" i'm just referring to my temperamental truck, not complaining about the virus.

 

[gregnash]

Yeah this whole thing has been annoying and i feel your pain on the timing. I was going to take care of ALL of the PM stuff in June/July and would've saved about $400 on the alternator job by doing it myself. As i mentioned, i had my mechanic install the new alternator (reman Denso) as well as a couple other small things and that was $600. My quote to do the reman starter job along with intake clean is $800. Not bad, but i agree...while i am in there means i'm not only doing the starter job, but i may as well tackle timing belt, radiator, leaking valve cover gaskets, spark plugs, and the other "while you're in there" things for about $1200-$1500 worth of parts with tax/shipping.

edit: by "whole thing" i'm just referring to my temperamental truck, not complaining about the virus.

Be wary of that quote. I was quoted the same, then got a call the day I dropped if off from the main mechanic letting me know that once they started reading through the FSM and found that the FULL intake (upper and lower portions) had to be removed that it was going to be a bit longer and require gaskets they had not anticipated. So all said and done (after I showed them the starter thread on here and that the intake CAN be removed as one piece, not like the FSM states) it was $1100. They called to get authorization to do the work before they turned the first screw/bolt.

And I get you on the "whole thing" reference. Mine was supposed to be a super pristine truck with no issues. Day before I was supposed to go get it, and had already checked into my flight, the PO calls me to tell me that "the truck won't start. It's done this to me before, pretty sure it is the starter but it didn't want to start this AM so I just left it at the house." Mind you I took the gamble (truck has a lift, sliders and new tires so that was main selling factor) and it has bitten a bit. Starter issue, door lock issues, brakes pads, front axles have shady job done by big name chain shop, etc. that I all have to now deal with and total keeps adding up. Still love the truck and but pisses me off when people do crap like this.

However, one thing that has kept me sane through this is something @TRAIL TAILOR said... "Sometimes these vehicles are like neglected and abused rescue dogs. For while they will want ALL of your attention until they can feel safe. " That is EXACTLY what Alita is doing...

 

[Rokketz]

rebuildign the old starter is MUCH better than buying a new one, i have read reports of the newer ones not holding up as good and the OEM ones, you can get a starter rebuid kit for cheap and yes its a PITA but doable since your major PITA is moving the intake off the motor......the rebuid of the starter isn't that bad.....took me maybe 30 min to rebuild it...the intake...well thats where the time comes in....but anyway i did the job ayear ago on my 99 LC and havent had a single starter issue since....just my 2C rebuilt the old one before you spend the $$ on a new one and have it possibly go out sooner than the OEM one did....my LC had 280k when i did the rebuild.

 

[flintknapper]

rebuildign the old starter is MUCH better than buying a new one, i have read reports of the newer ones not holding up as good and the OEM ones, you can get a starter rebuid kit for cheap and yes its a PITA but doable since your major PITA is moving the intake off the motor......the rebuid of the starter isn't that bad.....took me maybe 30 min to rebuild it...the intake...well thats where the time comes in....but anyway i did the job ayear ago on my 99 LC and havent had a single starter issue since....just my 2C rebuilt the old one before you spend the $$ on a new one and have it possibly go out sooner than the OEM one did....my LC had 280k when i did the rebuild.

When most folks allude to 'rebuilding the starter' they erroneously refer to doing JUST the solenoid (Contacts, Plunger and gasket). In many cases that is all that is needed to get the starter to 'work' again...BUT it is much better to tear it down, inspect the bearings, O-Rings, Clean and re-grease the gears, clean commutator, armature and coil field. Check your brushes, etc....

You won't do all that in 30 minutes.

Anyone planning to keep their vehicle for a long time would be well advised to replace their old starter with a new (or a well re-maned) unit and then rebuild the old one (at your leisure) for a spare.

I would tear the old one down at least this far:

 

[flintknapper]

Remember to 'Bench Test' when you are done!

 

[Rokketz]

View attachment 2251390View attachment 2251392View attachment 2251393

Remember to 'Bench Test' when you are done!

my brushes were shot..and absolutely needed to be replaced, as well as the contacts. And yes i did clean the commutator and the armature (i guess those things are kind self evident, when they are dirty or covered in carbon like film/dust you kinda want to clean them up as well as the windings) .....and i did re-grease the gears (again should be self evident, if you see old dirty grease, or caked dried out grease, clean and re-grease.....its not rocket science) ...., the bearings were fine, o-ring too, one of the J tubes broke, i know those are breathers but i took my chances....all seems to be fine, good pictures though, thanks!! My point in my post was don't just run out and buy a new starter when you may not get as a superior part like the ones that were made 20 years ago and that the rebuild kits are reasonably priced if you have the time and want to tackle the job.........not a tutorial on how to do it. so glad you did that for us all here on the forum. Happy Trailing!!

 

[flintknapper]

my brushes were shot..and absolutely needed to be replaced, as well as the contacts. And yes i did clean the commutator and the armature (i guess those things are kind self evident, when they are dirty or covered in carbon like film/dust you kinda want to clean them up as well as the windings) .....and i did re-grease the gears (again should be self evident, if you see old dirty grease, or caked dried out grease, clean and re-grease.....its not rocket science) ...., the bearings were fine, o-ring too, one of the J tubes broke, i know those are breathers but i took my chances....all seems to be fine, good pictures though, thanks!! My point in my post was don't just run out and buy a new starter when you may not get as a superior part like the ones that were made 20 years ago and that the rebuild kits are reasonably priced if you have the time and want to tackle the job.........not a tutorial on how to do it. so glad you did that for us all here on the forum. Happy Trailing!!

Glad to hear you tore your down and inspected everything. It is fairly unusual to need brushes, but a person wouldn't know that if they only addressed the solenoid. Unfortunately all too often....it gets parroted here, that all you need to do is "replace the contacts and plunger", which is patently untrue in a lot of cases. Yes, it will likely get your starter 'working' again, but you might have to go right back in there in a year or so for something else.

Why not just do it right....like you did? Good job.

Same thing holds true for alternators: I don't know how many times I've seen it posted on MUD that "all it needs is brushes". Well....maybe, maybe not. Mine was nearly completely burned up when it failed. The prudent thing to do is take it apart and inspect it, that holds true for alternators and starters (neither of which are any fun to get to or replace).

 

[Rokketz]

Glad to hear you tore your down and inspected everything. It is fairly unusual to need brushes, but a person wouldn't know that if they only addressed the solenoid. Unfortunately all too often....it gets parroted here, that all you need to do is "replace the contacts and plunger", which is patently untrue in a lot of cases. Yes, it will likely get your starter 'working' again, but you might have to go right back in there in a year or so for something else.

Why not just do it right....like you did? Good job.

Same thing holds true for alternators: I don't know how many times I've seen it posted on MUD that "all it needs is brushes". Well....maybe, maybe not. Mine was nearly completely burned up when it failed. The prudent thing to do is take it apart and inspect it, that holds true for alternators and starters (neither of which are any fun to get to or replace).

yeah i didnt attempt to rebuild the alternator, i just replaced that when it went out about 6 months ago, and yes its a PITA to get to. I have done it though, in a different toyota, back in college (very long time ago) when cash was very tight, my 87 4-runner (with the 22re motor) needed a new alternator, we cracked that thing open, replaced the brushes and slapped it back together....i didnt know any better then but i do now, lucky for me it held for another 4 or 5 years until i finally sold the truck....i loved that thing (with the removable rear top). I pulled out many of my friends who got stuck who had K5 broncos and GMC jimmy, jeeps and whatnot with that 4-runner. My other roommate had a FJ40 (Red with white top) the slop in the steering was horrendous but man would that thing go!