Harsh Upshifts (esp. in low gears) / P2716 code (shift solenoid 'D') / Recent OEM Pan Replacement... Thoughts? (7 Viewers)

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ADDENDUM. TRANSMISSION VODOO STRIKES BACK. Update. This happened late last week, but just now have time to post. To recap, the p2716 error code indicated an electrical failure with the SLT solenoid (or D solenoid)-- it regulates how much ATF fluid at what pressures are necessary at varying RPMs and shift points. After getting into the valve body, the OEM solenoid was showing high & out-of-range resistance of 6.1 ohms (5.0 - 5.6 is the 'normal' range). New SLT / D solenoid installed. Harsh upshift in lower gears remains.

Same damn code popped up.

So shlepped over to the shop and, with the owner, and we:

1) Pulled the just-installed new SLT / D solenoid; checked & rechecked and impedance is at 5.5 ohms, with valve opening & closing smooth as butter as it should. Check.

2) Checked the electrical connection at the valve body to new solenoid. Electric current / connectivity at valve body to SLT solenoid kosher. Check.

3) Pulled & removed the PCM to test wire harness / relays going from PCM to valve body. Electric current / connectivity from PCM wiring / relays to valve body to SLT solenoid kosher. Check.

4) Grounds were all attached & open. Check.

4) Re-attached wire harness / relays to PCM and (using certain electrical equipment I don't have in my garage) attached a 'noid light' into the back of the PCM connector and entered a command to actuate the SLT solenoid. FAIL.

5) So dear readers, the issue has been traced further down and-- for reasons unclear for a 200 series at 145k miles, the PCM is the issue: it isn't sending any signal / current to the SLT / D solenoid.

6) Of course & for my VIN#, new OEM PCMs (part # 89661-60R00) is on backorder for who-knows-how-many-months after numerous calls to 6-7 nearby Toyota / Lexus dealerships & online direct vendors of OEM Toyota / Lexus parts.

7) So my only options are:

a) drive as-is, and toggle the ECT to the 2nd gear setting (again, the most 'aggressive' harshness / jerkiness is only on the 1-2 upshift, maybe 90% less on the 2-3 upshift and not detectable in the 3-4 upshift and higher). If a new OEM PCM had a time-certain for the backorder, this would be the route I'd prefer to take.

b) HOWEVER, no one is able to provide a time-certain date or even timeframe for getting a new OEM PCM (4 months, 6 months, 12 months?)... so the alternative is to purchase a refurbished PCM from 2 online retailers I've found and, since I don't have access to tech stream (technology enabling you to use your keys with a new PCM), that will also be a part of next steps.

Q to all: while I'd prefer to buy a new PCM and have (for this specific repair) have a dealership do it, I have no definite timeline for when I'll be able to source a new OEM PCM... and while toggling the ECT to 2nd is a band-aid work-around to skip over the harsh 1-2 upshift, I don't feel warm & fuzzy re: relying on that for 3-12 months, so am leaning toward buying a refurbished PCM.

Thoughts / input / suggestions welcome. I realize that this entire thread itself is pretty in-the-weeds, and now this sub-issue / Q is even more granular still. But I'm not going to just let the rig sit for the next who-knows-how-long, so need to make a decision one way or the other as to whether to either:

a) wait who-knows-how-long for a new OEM PCM to buy and use the ECT 2nd workaround / band-aid; or

b) buy a refurbished unit.

Aaarrrghhhhh! Well, at the end of this, at least I will have learned a lot more about the voodoo that is the transmission!
 
Refurbished probably just means “used and maybe tested”. Unlike a refurbished alternator or starter where there are actually parts being replaced. More than likely it’s just pulled from a wrecked truck.

That said if the cost isn’t awful and/or it’s a significant savings I’d roll the dice on the used one, especially if you can send it back if it doesn’t work. These aren’t generally known to fail AFAIK, so you’re either unlucky or there’s a wiring issue somewhere between the transmission and the ECU.
 
Refurbished probably just means “used and maybe tested”. Unlike a refurbished alternator or starter where there are actually parts being replaced. More than likely it’s just pulled from a wrecked truck.

That said if the cost isn’t awful and/or it’s a significant savings I’d roll the dice on the used one, especially if you can send it back if it doesn’t work. These aren’t generally known to fail AFAIK, so you’re either unlucky or there’s a wiring issue somewhere between the transmission and the ECU.
Apologies for my tome, as this has been a 2-month-long troubleshooting exercise and so the update was comprehensive & lengthy to outline the step-by-step elimination of source issue. On the 2013 LX 570, the PCM is integrated into, and part of, the ECU (in Toyota / Lexus speak, the 'ECM').

As part of the drilling down into the weeds process on pinpointing the source of the electrical / circuit failure, we pulled the wiring harness, which runs from the valve body/transmission and into the PCM, and detached it from the PCM to test just that: whether the failure was in the wiring harness, grounds, and related relays going from PCM to valve body / transmission (collectively, the 'wiring harness'). We sent current directly thru the wiring harness at its attachment point to the PCM. And everything checked out & the signal was transmitted thru the wiring harness to the transmission / valve body A-OK.

In sum, all potential electrical failure points from the PCM to the valve body / transmission (including re-testing of the new SLT solenoid installed), checked out & were found to be fully operational & thus eliminated from the source of the problem.

The final step was to re-attach the wiring harness to the PCM, plug a noid light into the back of the PCM with a command for the PCM to, in turn, send a command up thru the wiring harness, to the valve body/transmission, to engage the SLT solenoid. No circuit activity was generated to the SLT solenoid in this final test.

Ergo, after a 2-month-long process of elimination, the source of the issue has been determined to be the PCM driver & the repair for which is replacing the PCM module itself & then two additional steps: a) programming the new (or refurbished) PCM to the rig's specific VIN# and then 2) to use your keys, both to start the ignition and to lock/unlock doors, etc., they must separately be 'married' to the rig-with-new-PCM via separate subscription & technology that logs directly into Lexus/Toyota (tech stream).

Hell, I wish it were the wiring harness, but we've gone thru every electrical / circuit fail point in the chain and everything checks out, other than the PCM itself is failing to send the appropriate signal / current to engage the SLT / D solenoid.

Sooooooo.... unless anyone knows how to actually open up the PCM and install / repair the PCM driver (beyond my pay grade), I'm stuck at either:

1) Driving as-is & engaging the ECT to 2nd at every start to wait months (a year) before a new OEM PCM becomes available (they're on backorder), and then have a dealership both i) install the new PCM and ii) 'marry' the keys.

OR

2) Buy a refurbished PCM (immediately available) and find an independent shop with the appropriate equipment equipment and 'tech stream' capabilities to similarly 'marry' the keys.

Fully realizing there is no 'right' answer here, but, rather an informed risk/benefit analysis, I'm leaning toward option 2-- the refurbished route, as the bigger risk / downside (to me) would be driving my rig for the next 6-9-12 months as-is vs. the risk of a refurbished PCM.

Neither option is optimal, so I'm in the position of making the less bad option, unfortunately.

Thus the request for input / thoughts / wisdom / opinions.
 
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Apologies for my tome, as this has been a 2-month-long troubleshooting exercise and so the update was comprehensive & lengthy to outline the step-by-step elimination of source issue. On the 2013 LX 570, the PCM is integrated into, and part of, the ECU (in Toyota / Lexus speak, the 'ECM').

As part of the drilling down into the weeds process on pinpointing the source of the electrical / circuit failure, we pulled the wiring harness, which runs from the valve body/transmission and into the PCM, and detached it from the PCM to test just that: whether the failure was in the wiring harness, grounds, and related relays going from PCM to valve body / transmission (collectively, the 'wiring harness'). We sent current directly thru the wiring harness at its attachment point to the PCM. And everything checked out & the signal was transmitted thru the wiring harness to the transmission / valve body A-OK.

In sum, all potential electrical failure points from the PCM to the valve body / transmission (including re-testing of the new SLT solenoid installed), checked out & were found to be fully operational & thus eliminated from the source of the problem.

The final step was to re-attach the wiring harness to the PCM, plug a noid light into the back of the PCM with a command for the PCM to, in turn, send a command up thru the wiring harness, to the valve body/transmission, to engage the SLT solenoid. No circuit activity was generated to the SLT solenoid in this final test.

Ergo, after a 2-month-long process of elimination, the source of the issue has been determined to be the PCM driver & the repair for which is replacing the PCM module itself & then two additional steps: a) programming the new (or refurbished) PCM to the rig's specific VIN# and then 2) to use your keys, both to start the ignition and to lock/unlock doors, etc., they must separately be 'married' to the rig-with-new-PCM via separate subscription & technology that logs directly into Lexus/Toyota (tech stream).

Hell, I wish it were the wiring harness, but we've gone thru every electrical / circuit fail point in the chain and everything checks out, other than the PCM itself is failing to send the appropriate signal / current to engage the SLT / D solenoid.

Sooooooo.... unless anyone knows how to actually open up the PCM and install / repair the PCM driver (beyond my pay grade), I'm stuck at either:

1) Driving as-is & engaging the ECT to 2nd at every start to wait months (a year) before a new OEM PCM becomes available (they're on backorder), and then have a dealership both i) install the new PCM and ii) 'marry' the keys.

OR

2) Buy a refurbished PCM (immediately available) and find an independent shop with the appropriate equipment equipment and 'tech stream' capabilities to similarly 'marry' the keys.

Fully realizing there is no 'right' answer here, but, rather an informed risk/benefit analysis, I'm leaning toward option 2-- the refurbished route, as the bigger risk / downside (to me) would be driving my rig for the next 6-9-12 months as-is vs. the risk of a refurbished PCM.

Neither option is optimal, so I'm in the position of making the less bad option, unfortunately.

Thus the request for input / thoughts / wisdom / opinions.
Timeline aside what is the cost of new vs refurbished (parts and labor) and what guarantee/warranty do you have on the used one?
 
When I replace a transmission and TCU (transmission ECU) I simply have to input the compensation values and perform an initialization and the test drive outlined in the repair manual.

Regarding a reman— when we get a Toyota reman transmission I’m pretty sure the only thing that isn’t new is the case and maybe the main shaft. They’re good transmissions and I wouldn’t hesitate replace my LC trans with one if/when the time comes.
 
When I replace a transmission and TCU (transmission ECU) I simply have to input the compensation values and perform an initialization and the test drive outlined in the repair manual.

Regarding a reman— when we get a Toyota reman transmission I’m pretty sure the only thing that isn’t new is the case and maybe the main shaft. They’re good transmissions and I wouldn’t hesitate replace my LC trans with one if/when the time comes.
danke sir! To be precise (and apologies for my tendency to pen novels-- feel free to dunk on me for that bad habit from my day job as a lawyer coming thru-- the length of my post(s) often compromise precision... my bad)... but the issue is solely electrical. The mechanical transmission is 100% good. Something is up with the internal electrics of the PCM such that, when prompted to upshift at X RPM and Y throttle position or whatever the back-end math is from the TCU, the PCM isn't sending any signals to the SLT solenoid... and oddly only on lower-gear upshifts. Damned if I know why, or how that happened-- admittedly a head-scratcher only attributable to the Vodoo Transmission gods-- but we've eliminated all other sources / causes & by using the noid light plugged into the BACK of the PCM to prompt operation of the SLT solenoid with no resulting signal being generated out of the FRONT of the PCM, and thus into the harness connecting to the valve body & ultimately to (ordinarily) prompt the proper operation of the SLT solenoid... well, that seems fairly determinative!
 
When I replace a transmission and TCU (transmission ECU) I simply have to input the compensation values and perform an initialization and the test drive outlined in the repair manual.

Regarding a reman— when we get a Toyota reman transmission I’m pretty sure the only thing that isn’t new is the case and maybe the main shaft. They’re good transmissions and I wouldn’t hesitate replace my LC trans with one if/when the time comes.
When I had similar issues with the solenoids this is exactly what my transmission guy said. I wasted time and money chasing down the solenoid issue and the valve body. Wish I’d just bolted up the new transmission right out of the gate.
 
When I replace a transmission and TCU (transmission ECU) I simply have to input the compensation values and perform an initialization and the test drive outlined in the repair manual.

Regarding a reman— when we get a Toyota reman transmission I’m pretty sure the only thing that isn’t new is the case and maybe the main shaft. They’re good transmissions and I wouldn’t hesitate replace my LC trans with one if/when the time comes.
What’s the cost of a reman? I assume you’d also do a torque converter?

I lost 2nd gear engine braking and 6th gear engagement this week. The FSM says B2 brake or valve body.
 
@linuxgod , I believe I paid $3,500 after core return a couple years ago. Found this today:

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What’s the cost of a reman? I assume you’d also do a torque converter?

I lost 2nd gear engine braking and 6th gear engagement this week. The FSM says B2 brake or valve body.
I’m not CERTAIN, but I remember the last time I priced one it was a little less than $4k. Under 100k I don’t think a torque converter is necessary if you’re maybe on a bit of a budget, but at your mileage it may be worth it.
 
Just caught up on this. Looks like the vehicle in question was shifting fine, then things changed with bigger volume of ATF and therefore changed fluid levels (higher) as the fluids heats up. This changes how the solenoids and transmission operates and can put more pressure on the seals. This maybe fine on some transmissions, seems it is not on the AB60.

It appears the OP is convinced this is not the root cause, however I would change back to the OEM pan and double check before start replacing parts.

Good luck of course 👍🏻
 
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OK a few Qs, as I've been holding off on buying a reman ECM / PCM. The part # is 8966160R00. Again, the primary issue is ONLY the harsh / jerky upshift from 1-2 (I can feel it from 2-3, but no other passenger can). So my temporary workaround has been to just toggle the ECT switch to '2nd,' thus starting the rig in 2nd gear.

Don't want to use the 'workaround' forever, but none of the several Toyota Master Techs at the independents I've talked to / worked with to date see this as any real cause for concern / risk of damage to the transmission proper.

Sooooo: 1) A new ECM / PCM is now available from Lexus dealership for $1,200 and change. I'm pretty sure that would be for the part only. The rub is 2) the ECM / PCM is located just behind the glovebox and can be popped in and out in all of maybe 15 mins. HOWEVER, once you pop in a new ECM / PCM, the immobilizer system must be re-initiated / married to the new ECM / PCM so that you can turn the ignition on & so that your keys will work. The most bullet-proof way to do that is (drum roll) go to a dealership who will have the latest & greatest version of Techstream-- Toyota's primary computer diagnostic system that also requires a monthly subscription. Given the cost, there is one (1) independent shop 120 miles away that has Techstream in-house.

Most simple & expensive route: take it to the dealership. If a new OEM PCM / ECM is running $1,200 and change for the part alone, then am guessing the whole ball of wax-- labor + re-initiation of the immobilizer system thru Techstream is gonna be in the $2k+ range. Pretty damn steep.

The reman PCM / ECM is $655.00, comes with a 'Toyota OBD Resync Tool' + instructions that will apparently re-initiate / re-marry the reman / refurb PCM to the immobilizer... so that you can then actually turn the ignition on & use your keys. Here is the online retailer & the ECM Resync Process (seems straightforward) is included as an attachment: Search results for: '89661-60R00' - https://www.fs1inc.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=89661-60R00&msclkid=e275591b41b21b957e22319c9436d0e1&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=DBP_Part-Numbers%238_Search&utm_term=89661-60R00&utm_content=89661-60R00

Decisions, decisions...



*As for the pressure issue, there isn't any increased fluid pressure-- in fluid dynamics 101, pressure is a function of the density of fluid + acceleration of gravity + height of fluid ABOVE THE OBJECT (i.e., the valve body). Gravity is a constant with the OEM setup & my aftermarket setup (I trust we can all agree); density of fluid is similarly identical (per the SPS data sheet) and the valve body sits ON TOP OF the pan (not at the bottom). If you want to get all technical in fluid dynamic equation (math), the formula is P= pgh: big 'P' being fluid pressure, small 'p' being fluid density & 'h' being height ABOVE the object in Q. So in theory, if you could seal a 5-gallon paint bucket & use it instead of a transmission pan (OEM or otherwise) the fluid pressure isn't going to change. At all. Different story if the valve body were in the bottom of the pan... then maybe. But it sits at the very top of the pan... so if there were the OEM volume or 3.5 qts extra underneath with a deeper pan or 350 extra quarts extra underneath for purposes of the thought experiment... that doesn't change the fluid pressure one iota....

By way of analogy, imagine you are floating at the shallow end of your neighborhood pool on a float, sipping on a cold beer & at the kiddie end of the pool at 3 feet deep. Now imagine doing the same thing on the surface of the ocean above the Mariana Trench in the middle of the Pacific, which reaches a depth of 11k feet. Assume the fluid in the kiddie pool, instead of fresh water, is taken from that exact place from the Pacific (i.e., to make constant the density).

In either scenario, the pool float is your valve body & sits atop the water (or barely submerged if you want to get real technical-like)-- whether you happen to be floating at the kiddie end of your pool or 11k feet above the deepest part of the Mariana Trench (not sitting at the bottom)... the fluid pressure within the valve body is identical.
 

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Buy the reman, that way you’re only out $655 when it turns out this isn’t the root cause.

Honestly at $655 you can replace it with another reman unit in a few years if it somehow happens to fail again (unlikely) and you’ll still have saved $$$
 
Buy the reman, that way you’re only out $655 when it turns out this isn’t the root cause.

Honestly at $655 you can replace it with another reman unit in a few years if it somehow happens to fail again (unlikely) and you’ll still have saved $$$
Good advice.
 
Buy the reman, that way you’re only out $655 when it turns out this isn’t the root cause.

Honestly at $655 you can replace it with another reman unit in a few years if it somehow happens to fail again (unlikely) and you’ll still have saved $$$

Or... re-install the OEM transmission pan and see if the problem is still there.

I'm still having a hard time rationalizing the fact that the problem first appeared immediately after the installation of the aftermarket pan, but, has nothing to do with it.

Try the OEM pan. Nothing to lose. Zero cost.

HTH
 
*As for the pressure issue, there isn't any increased fluid pressure-- in fluid dynamics 101, pressure is a function of the density of fluid + acceleration of gravity + height of fluid ABOVE THE OBJECT (i.e., the valve body). Gravity is a constant with the OEM setup & my aftermarket setup (I trust we can all agree); density of fluid is similarly identical (per the SPS data sheet) and the valve body sits ON TOP OF the pan (not at the bottom). If you want to get all technical in fluid dynamic equation (math), the formula is P= pgh: big 'P' being fluid pressure, small 'p' being fluid density & 'h' being height ABOVE the object in Q. So in theory, if you could seal a 5-gallon paint bucket & use it instead of a transmission pan (OEM or otherwise) the fluid pressure isn't going to change. At all. Different story if the valve body were in the bottom of the pan... then maybe. But it sits at the very top of the pan... so if there were the OEM volume or 3.5 qts extra underneath with a deeper pan or 350 extra quarts extra underneath for purposes of the thought experiment... that doesn't change the fluid pressure one iota....
Assume you have heard of fluid thermal expansion...

Per the Toyota maintenance manual the method to get the fluid level right is to warm the transmission fluid to a certain temperature window and wait for the excess fluid to drain out of the filler plug, then close her up. Per online search the coefficient of thermal expansion for oils and transmission fluids is around 0.0007 per degree C (0.07%/C).

Therefore a gearbox with a given length x width housing and additional fluid volume as a result of a deeper/taller oil pan will lead to more level increase as you go from ambient to operating conditions. This changes the fluid level height
i.e. the pressure which in theory can affect the way the solenoids work and possible other aspects of the transmission such as the torque converter.

Whether this is your issue I do not know for sure, yet considering the strict method of filling the transmission in a certain temperature window makes me think this could be quite sensitive. So again before spending all this money I would put the OEM pan back on and check the issue is still there.

P.S. in case you do not believe there is thermal expansion, look at your power steering fluid level cold engine off and warmed up engine off. About an inch taller. Not saying you having an inch more fluid level in your transmission (because not up to me to look at factory vs your current volume and calculate the difference in fluid height), however this is an aspect to consider.
 
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Assume you have heard of fluid thermal expansion...

Per the Toyota maintenance manual the method to get the fluid level right is to warm the transmission fluid to a certain temperature window and wait for the excess fluid to drain out of the filler plug, then close her up. Per online search the coefficient of thermal expansion for oils and transmission fluids is around 0.0007 per degree C (0.07%/C).

Therefore a gearbox with a given length x width housing and additional fluid volume as a result of a deeper/taller oil pan will lead to more level increase as you go from ambient to operating conditions. This changes the fluid level height
i.e. the pressure which in theory can affect the way the solenoids work and possible other aspects of the transmission such as the torque converter.

Whether this is your issue I do not know for sure, yet considering the strict method of filling the transmission in a certain temperature window makes me think this could be quite sensitive. So again before spending all this money I would put the OEM pan back on and check the issue is still there.

P.S. in case you do not believe there is thermal expansion, look at your power steering fluid level cold engine off and warmed up engine off. About an inch taller. Not saying you having an inch more fluid level in your transmission (because not up to me to look at factory vs your current volume and calculate the difference in fluid height), however this is an aspect to consider.
l’ve always told my ex’s that the extra inch matters. I’m guessing the Toyota transmission agrees.
 
Or... re-install the OEM transmission pan and see if the problem is still there.

I'm still having a hard time rationalizing the fact that the problem first appeared immediately after the installation of the aftermarket pan, but, has nothing to do with it.

Try the OEM pan. Nothing to lose. Zero cost.

HTH
That’s what I would have done too but since the OP disagreed I’d suggest the next least expensive option.
 

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