Half a year overland trip with ONE battery for starting & aux (1 Viewer)

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So, as a signal of how you can solve things differently I create this thread. I see everybody keep adding batteries to there rigs. 2 batteries for starting (even if you have only 12v) and then two extra batteries for the equipment (fridge and stuff). But then, yes, the batteries need to be bigger for the coffeemachine, hairdryer etc etc. My approach is a bit different. And it is also to share experiences.

We drove our Toyota Hiace 4x4 campervan from Europe to Japan via Central Asia and Mongolia. Obviously we have a fridge and interior lights and a fan. Our fridge is one with a normal door (all the cold air falls out) and even has a freezer.

The power system consists of the following:
  • Optima Yellow Top 75Ah (for starting and deep cycling)
  • Victron Bluesolar 75V/15A with bluetooth
  • Big solar panel of 175W and 40V peak (40Volt is no problem for the Victron)
    This solar panel was a used one they normally put on houses, I managed to buy it for only 20 Euro
I choose the Optima Yellow Top because it is a battery that can deliver very high starting power. I actually measured 1200 to 1300 Amps of CCA starting power! Just from this battery, clearly enough to start any diesel. While it is rated at 975 CCA. And you can still drain it like a deep cycel battery, it just doesn't care!
Then I configured the Victron to shut off the load exit (where our fridge and stuff connected to) at around 11.8 Volt.
Of course, as many people know, a voltage level is not the same as State of Charge, but at least it gave an indication. My main goal is of course to have the auxillery stuff work on the battery and solar panel, but not drain it too much as it still need to start the vehicle. I did some tests with outside temperatures of just around freezing temperature and that worked well. I even once measured a State of Charge of only 20% and it still started my cold diesel, although with a bit less oomph.
This of course limiting the capacity of the battery you can actually use. But, I have a big 175W solar panel that always manages to get us throughout the day. So, I only have to get through the night. And for that, the limited capacity was almost always enough.

And when I write almost always, there was one occassion when it did not work perfectly.
When it was 40+ degrees Celcius, seriously hot in Uzbekistan. No problem, sun enough you would think. Yes. But it did not cool down in the night AT ALL! Of course, you have this in more places and my system can cope with that.
But there, I think it was still 35+ degrees Celcius in the night, unbelievable. So the fridge is still continuously running during the night. And that is also the time when we run the fan, drawing more power during the night. So then it should down somewhere in the night. Fridge was still quite cool though, and of course the car still started easily.

The advantages of my system in my opinion are:
  • Saving costs for extra batteries
  • Saving weight and space for extra batteries (most important I think)
  • Saving cost for big cabling as well charging solution between dual battery setup (diode, relais or charger)
  • Much simpler to install
  • The Victron system has a seperate thread here, but it allows connection with bluetooth and it allows to buy big solar panels for houses, which are much cheaper. Especially an old used panel by itself is not very tradable because you can barely apply it.
So that's it. It is just as an inspiration on how to solve things differently, that's all. Mainly because I see people always building systems which are unnecessary in my eyes. To big, overpowered and such. And it all adds up in weight and drivability.
And then there are people who do much more stuff in the evening, like photo or movie editing on laptops on 230v and stuff. They may need more power. But most people just want to run their fridge, some interior lights and charge the phone or camera.
 
@Hiace4wd Nice work! I have always thought that double batteries are overkill. I travel w/o a fridge or a cooler so I don't need one for sure but you prove that even with a fridge and some mild solar a single battery is enough.

BTW, the only think I would add is you should probably get one of those compact lithium jump starters just in case. I have a v8 on my GX and I my lithium jump starter can start my truck even when it's cold outside. I'm sure they have them for diesels too.
 
A single battery is enough until it fails and you are in the middle of the bush with no town nearby and no other vehicle around to jump start you. Then you are in deep trouble.

Batteries can drop a cell and they will not charge and will not start a vehicle (too high impedance). The can do that with very little warning. All good one day, dead as a door nail the next.

To me, that is the main reason for an independent aux battery. Yes, it can provide power to a fridge and camp lights, but that is a bonus.

cheers,
george.
 
Oh yes, I forgot to mention this. I also have a Lithium jump starter pack for when the battery fails. Did not need that yet.

I have never really needed mine either but I had an opportunity to test it at home when my battery gave up the ghost recently. Worked beautifully!
 
A single battery is enough until it fails and you are in the middle of the bush with no town nearby and no other vehicle around to jump start you. Then you are in deep trouble.

Batteries can drop a cell and they will not charge and will not start a vehicle (too high impedance). The can do that with very little warning. All good one day, dead as a door nail the next.

To me, that is the main reason for an independent aux battery. Yes, it can provide power to a fridge and camp lights, but that is a bonus.

cheers,
george.

I am completely unconvinced by the single battery failure argument as the reason for a dual battery setup. A lithium starter pack is good enough.

If I'm wheeling in a very remote place then I'm almost certainly with a buddy, and I can use their truck's battery to jump start. It's a good idea to have a buddy anyway for other reasons. In that case, a starter cable will suffice.

If I'm alone then my lithium starter pack can jump my truck. If that fails which would be exceedingly rare, then I call for help with my Garmin InReach.

A lithium pack cost much less than a dual battery setup and at least 50lbs lighter. And everybody should have a satellite communicator anyway.
 
^ Well, convinced or not, it does and has happened. I've been with folk and more than once seen a totally failed battery. Working just fine one minute and totally dead on restart. Not stressed by a winching event, not extreme weather, not subjected to severe shock, just vehicle running fine (alternator keeping things going), park for an hour and then battery dead.

A lithium jump start is fine for a jump start, but if you have a fridge with you and you are far from anywhere then a jump start will get you moving, but now your fridge contents are in trouble when you stop. I'm talking remote places, like in oz where I can easily be several days drive to get to the nearest main road and then a bunch more driving to reach a town. Having to head out to get back to town just because of a dead battery would be quite 'irritating'. One would also be relying on that jump start to get your vehicle going each new day. Bad luck if you need to winch before getting back to a town, your main battery dead and your jump start totally incapable of powering a winch. You could be with another 4wd or group, but now you have made yourself a burden on them and you've cut their trip short too.

With our 4wds, 50lbs of 'extra' weight for an aux battery is totally academic and inconsequential. I head bush in oz often in a single vehicle, I take a Spot unit with me for an emergency, but don't consider a flat battery and drained jump start as an excuse to push the help button. I try to be a lot more self sufficient than that and want to enjoy myself and have cold beer readily available.

My dual battery system cost me a 100A duty cycle solenoid, a couple of little relays, a marine switch and a second battery case to fit into my 80 that nicely supports a factory located second battery. Then the cost of a costco starting/marine battery (maybe another $80 or so). Not ridiculously more than a lithium pack, safer (we have sufficient examples of lithium jump starts that have 'melted' down) and lot more useful while camped. The cost of the entire setup would be much less than the fuel cost to go on an extended trip...

Anyhow, do as you want, believe what you want, we all set up our vehicles differently and have different scenarios that we need to deal with, theoretical or real.

cheers,
george.
 
I live and work in Spain as a mechanic, it is a fact that a battery will work one minute and not the next, trust me on this and hot weather is an absolute battery killer. If you have a motor problem that may require a good number of cranks after your battery had been running a fridge for a couple of days it will not have the capacity needed, and if you think a lithium power pack is going to hold together when trying to fault find you will be sorely disapointed.

I have read and re-read posts about travelling into isolated areas alone with just the one battery, they are often written by the same people who only put in half a tank of gas before leaving the tarmac I mean.........should be enough right?

There is without doubt no credible reason not to have a second battery in an off road vehicle that may find itself even just 20 miles from civilisation.

Regards

Dave
 
Well, my diesel wasn't too happy to start at high altitude (4000+ meters) so it needed some cranking yes. And this was after my solar controller had shutdown the load, so not starting with 100% State of Charge, probably like half.
Having the crank more often was no problem at all. This Optima can still start my engine when State of Charge is as low as %10 (and cold), but yeah, of course it has less oomph then (still 500 CCA measured). Around my shut off point it still delivers 1000 CCA.

Anyway, you are talking about if the battery fails. First of all, that it could be empty, the lithium pack will help. However, you have them in different sizes. The small ones are not good enough for diesel.
Second, if the battery would fail completely, you can set some of the lithium packs in "pro" mode, in which case it does not need to detect a present battery voltage and you could directly power the car with it.
It will not have the capacity to crank endlessly like that Optima for example, but it will work.

Last but not least, I used diesels which can run without a battery. Yes it still needs to start, but when it is started (for example by lithium pack or by pushing (of a hill)) you can leave it running and even disconnect battery or lithium pack.

Could you think of a situation in which all fails? Both the battery and lithium pack fails and an engine problem which requires a lot of cranking? Sure it can happen, I will not deny that.

But so can a dual battery system fail. I had that once already! Needed a small tow to get started again.
In fact, carrying two batteries that would be completely separated would be most reliable.

So you can never prepare for everything. That is why I carry two type of satellite devices, a SPOT and a satellite phone.

I go into remote areas and take enough fuel with me (thank you for the assumption but no). However, unexpectedly there was a diesel leak.
Luckily we smelled something late in the evening. Because otherwise all my diesel would be in the sand the next day leaving us stranded. This was somewhere remote in Mongolia. So had to fix it in the dark.
I could run the car from a separate jerrycan if necessary, it is all so simple with mechanical fuel pump, but I had already gone through the jerrycans, it was already in the leaking tank.

So you try to be self-reliant as much as you can, but still there is the need to carry satellite equipment in my opinion. For remote trips that is.
 
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I have an aversion to automatic transmissions for sure, so a manual for the push start, and zero electronics for my off road activities.

I think we are near agreement that the single half discharged battery and lithium pack are no match for a decent fully charged battery? Carrying decent comms again in agreement however, calling out someone a hundred miles away for a jump start is at best embarassing, by the time you have covered their expenses that second battery starts to look cheap.

I am sure there more pro's than cons for having an extra battery.

BTW, I carry 40 extra litres of diesel on the roof rack. :D

Regards

Dave
 
I have an aversion to automatic transmissions for sure, so a manual for the push start, and zero electronics for my off road activities.

I think we are near agreement that the single half discharged battery and lithium pack are no match for a decent fully charged battery?

Yes but also little bit no. Purely measuring CCA's I tend to disagree. Half charged Optima still gave me 1000 CCA around 0 degrees C outside, then add the CCAs of lithium pack. If you need endless cranking because of engine problems, then a full charged battery has more stamina.

As said, either a half charged battery (my cup is always half full :hillbilly: ) or a lithium pack could start my car. Also with more cranks then normal. No endless cranks, that is for sure.
Almost empty Optima still gave me 500 CCA but not for long I guess.

Carrying decent comms again in agreement however, calling out someone a hundred miles away for a jump start is at best embarassing, by the time you have covered their expenses that second battery starts to look cheap.

I am sure there more pro's than cons for having an extra battery.

BTW, I carry 40 extra litres of diesel on the roof rack. :D

Our van is already very high. I carry also 40 liter on the back, and try to have only 10 liter or so, unless going remote of course.

I guess Australia may be different but even in Mongolia you could manage with a single fuel tank and just a jerrycan to be sure.
Central Asia was harder because of poor diesel availability.

I really hate all the weight. So I try to minimize. We were travelling as a family, so with the four of us in a Hiace for half a year. We needed all the space and take care that I don't overload the vehicle. Even though it had some reinforced suspension. All just suffers on the poor roads.
 
And then I forgot the story of some years ago, that I found out that all my batteries in my Landcruiser were not full enough to start. Dual battery system with lead acid that evened out to a useless state of charge.

It was a beautiful day and we waited some hours to let the 200W solar panels do its job, and we could start the engine :p
 
@Hiace4wd said "If you need endless cranking because of engine problems, then a full charged battery has more stamina."

Exactly my point, you can quote CCA this and that but in the real world it means nothing.

@Hiace4wd said "Almost empty Optima still gave me 500 CCA but not for long I guess."

Again, trying to guess what balls are in an 'almost empty' battery is not easy.

You seem to be unlucky in your travels, a difficult to start motor at high altitude, a diesel leak after you had used all the jerry cans up, a bad set of batteries on a Land Cruiser.........and you don't think you have a reason for a reserve fully charged battery? :D

As an asides, I note you set your controller to shut off at 11.8 volts right? Then that battery to all intents and purposes is flat.

Regards

Dave
 
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11.8V is a shutoff voltage under load, it is not the actual stable voltage from which you can derive a state of charge. For that you have to let it sit for some time.

I measured all this extensively and tested it at around 0 degrees Celcius. I measured CCA as well as state of charge later.
So I know when my fridge ran until shut off, state of charge was roughly 50% and that left me with 1000 CCA at 0 degrees Celcius. That is the nice thing about the Optima YellowTop, this thing just keeps delivering even though you're emptying it.
The above would never work on an average lead acid battery.

I guess the automatic glowing might not work so well or the cold adjusting fuel pump. Anyway, also after a night of -10 it also starts badly but it starts. And when it runs it runs.
I drove the Landcruiser up to 5600 meter altitude and it did better. It didnt give a sh*t to be up for a colder night close to 5000 meter, started easily in the morning. Other vehicles took much longer. Similar to our Hiace, but it worked in the end.

Other than that I had mostly small stuff. Very little actuslly broke. I think only a stabilizer bar holder broke, and people with 70 series broke them as well on those roads. I could always fix the small stuff like the two leaks myself and keep going.
So in fact it was better than with the Landcruiser. I had the 3B engine in the Landcruiser, the bulletproof unbreakable engine bla bla bla, well... it broke :p
In Pakistan where eberything is Toyota. Just one important bolt broke, that holds the crankshaft... oops. But got it fixed and did perfectly afterwards.

That was a 24V system with dual batteries, all new. Four batteries in total. Left me stranded twice.
One of the batteries was not liking the heat I think, lost fbattery fluid and it dropped out, taking the other in its grave (drawback of 24V, the other gets overcharged)
Then I used the aux batteries for starting but they were not rated at high CCA and were not full, they could only just get me going. Really a lithium booster would be more helpful.
It had manual switching between batteries which allowed for user errors haha, only going for a short drive with the batteries coupled. When one of the two banks was completely empty, it would even out into something useless. (Yeah it had thick cables between them)
Of course a good seperator would not have that.

I like it much more to have a 12V setup with this powerful Optima. Because it was clear to me that lead acid isnt going to anything useful for your engine anymore when it is less than 90% full or so.
And depleting them was also easy.
Only a solar power setup made it really better.

For now I focused a lot on solar, so that it allowed me to always have enough power during daytime, even in bad weather. This means that I need very little actual battery capacity.
Different apprpach than making your batteries bigger so you can last longer.
 
@george_tlc - The problem you mentioned with a battery suddenly failing with a bad cell - is that limited to flooded batteries, or AGM as well? Thanks
 
^ I've seen red top optimas die overnight and also flooded cell.

I'm running an odyssey agm as my main for the past couple or so years (got a good deal on it) and a flooded as my aux (coming up to 4 or so years old now). Will be interesting to see if the odyssey gives a good long life (vs the ~2 year life the red tops gave until I learned my lesson, i.e. that they are junk).

cheers,
george.
 
I was hoping an AGM battery would be solution. I guess not.

A few years back the battery in my 80 blew the top along with post and battery cable straight up into the hood leaving a sizable dent. Was working fine, drove to work, after work hit the key to start and BANG! That was a decent quality (I think) flooded battery. I forgot about that till now. Lithium jump packs weren't around then, but wouldn't have helped ;) Replaced it with another Truestart from Steven's Creek Toyota (they still give 20% off for TLCA members) and they were quite surprised to see what was left of the battery. I was surprised too when it happened - scared the crap out of me.
 
Sounds scary as hell, especially as you could have the hood open to check why your car wasn't starting.

The Red Optima's were really bad, heard so many people about them. For some reason the Yellow Tops are the opposite.

A flooded battery in our daily driver could make a short. So you take a corner and poof, the power was gone.
 
@Hiace4wd thanks for sharing your experience. I have been in the single battery + lithium jump pack camp myself with the same logic - if two batteries are better than one, so are two spare tires, a spare alternator, ECU, transmission, differential and so forth. Modern batteries just like modern tires are a lot more reliable & durable than equivalents from even 10 years ago. It is pretty hard to keep a touring Land Cruiser within GVWR so the extra ~100lb weight of all that stuff really does matter!

I've had very good success with a single AGM Group 49 Duracell that isn't quite as high-spec as your Optima, and no solar. I run a fan and fridge, recharge camp lights, phones, iPad etc but we only stay less than 24 hours in one place. The 12v electric cooker gets used only when the engine is running. If we stayed longer in a spot, I would probably get 100-150w solar. If I had a winch, I would probably get solar and a 2nd battery with a Redarc or similar DC-DC charger.

My lithium pack, an Anti-Gravity XP10, in addition to supplementing the single battery mentioned above, has been on a handful of international trips with rental or borrowed vehicles , it provides great peace-of-mind (except during security check at airports, its always a struggle to get it through).

Anyway, sorry for the rambling but the original reason for my post was to ask you: Now that you have the benefit of hindsight, how would you implement your system differently?

  • would you find it beneficial to have more than one solar panel (i.e. two smaller ones instead of one big one) for redundancy. What is the probability of breaking a panel?
  • would you make the panels removable to be able to park in shade?
  • how much of a performance difference did you find from best to worst case for the solar (say Northern Europe to Mongolia which get a LOT of sun).
 

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