Had Diamon-Fusion process done on windshield

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IdahoDoug said:
It's purported to make the windshield chip proof and up to 10 times stronger. As a bonus, it also permanently makes water build up on it even more than Rain-X. DougM

Thats the one i need...ssghhh :mad: Next couple weeks from now is going to be my 4th f&*%in times I replaced the LX windshield with rubber molding b'coz of the stone chip, cracked... :mad: and all of them original LX Toyota windshield.
Due slightly difference between the LX and LC windshield (Blue / Brown) :mad:
 
Up here, we get a lot of w/s damage and replace a lot - like Denver I suppose. Anyhow, I've had good/best luck with the PPG and the one I just put on the 97 I requested a blue tint band (truck's blue) which looks nice. Seem to resist chips well.

DougM
 
I bought my '95 in late 2000, and am currently on my 3rd windshield. Which also needs replacing right now, in fact.

Bought the original OEM one for my first replacement at something like $450. It lasted about 3 months before it had a few nicks; ended up replacing it due to a crack within a year.

For the second replacement, I just went with a standard clear one for quite a bit less (less than $200, IIRC). It's lasted about 3 years, until it got a nick which developed into a crack all within a half hour.
 
so how's the testing going Doug? Going in for a new one tommorow.
 
Was just thinking about this an hour ago. Drove around for errands in the heavy rain and the beading is obviously still there. We got rained out of shooting the w/s this weekend and have to do this outside. (local indoor rangemasters have a bit of a problem shooting glass inside their ranges - heh).

S/b happening this week.

DougM
 
BTT for update (see first post).

DougM
 
Very interesting but disappointing results. Were the engineers surprised? I would've thought they would have conducted similar tests.

Thanks for the update Doug!
 
Frankly I don't care about protection from pitting/damage, I'm more interested in the water beading, so keep us informed on how that holds up over time :)
 
The technology licenser does not actually claim on their website that the coating makes the windshield stronger. They claim that it makes the windshield smoother and have much lower friction. And then they claim that since the friction is lower, it would require a faster or heavier impact to damage the glass. Their scientific test results used to make their claim did not strike me as being highly relevant to real world auto windshield impact damage.

Don't think they will be including a testimonial from Doug on their website!
 
Yeah, I caught that "big city two-step" as well. Ben, the beading is going strong, but there's little point in reporting how it holds up because it will cost you a cool $220 if you can find a licensee willing to do it for their cost. Yes, I said their cost. You'll see it at high end dealerships for $450 and up. Lessee, a bottle of RainX is $4, so that's about 670 years worth.....

DougM
 
IdahoDoug said:
Yeah, I caught that "big city two-step" as well. Ben, the beading is going strong, but there's little point in reporting how it holds up because it will cost you a cool $220 if you can find a licensee willing to do it for their cost. Yes, I said their cost. You'll see it at high end dealerships for $450 and up. Lessee, a bottle of RainX is $4, so that's about 670 years worth.....

DougM
Damn you and your cost/benefit analysis! ;p :D
 
Doug, sorry I didn't see this sooner.

Your results would have been highly predictable for the following reasons.

Automotive glass is mostly Silica. Silica is very homogenous, fairly hard, and it readily transfers energy (recieved on impact) in a very uniform fashion.

Windshield glass is laminated....so what I am about to describe may not have appeared, but the principle was at play.

Take your BB gun and shoot a piece of standard flat pane glass. What you will see is a cone shaped void on the back side of the glass (even if the bb goes through). This is called a "Conchoidal Fracture" and it is the "fingerprint" of the energy transfer.

Filling up the tiny pores that exist on the surface of glass will doubtless help it shed water. That is what (rain-x) does, and we all know it works.

At the same time... if we apply a product that results in a fairly hard, thin, uniform, "skin" then we have unwittingly made more efficient the ability of glass to transfer "recieved energy" to the rest of its thickness.

Now....I understand perfectly well that this would occur at near "microscopic levels" but I am much surprised that if any engineers were involved that they did not consider the possibility.

I am not sure that using an air rifle is a fair test because of the speed of the projectile. A "BB" may not be harder than (all) rocks, but its small frontal section transfers alot of energy.

In short....any coating that does not "absorb" energy, (meaning it would have to be thick or soft) is not significantly helping.

The angle the projectile strikes the surface, its speed, and mass...are what really determine the level of damage.

I do think the product is worth looking into for the purpose of shedding water.


Do some more testing and let us know.
 
Flint,

During this process I spent over an hour speaking to an engineer who's job was coating glass. He evaluated the science for me and interpreted it. Basically, glass is a crystalline structure that is easily "unzipped". That is why cracks propagate, and why glass essentially shatters.

The process starts at a microscopic level when force is applied to a small spike of glass and the surface of automotive glass is rough, porous and uneven at that level. The key is an object hitting a point on that surface that causes it to crack and then the structure unzips. This coating fills that rough stuff in so that at a microscopic level it is smooth. This means there are no projections for an incoming object to crack off and start the shattering process. Any object hitting it is presented with a smooth surface which means maximum spreading of any impact load which in turn means maximum resistance to breakage. The coating is permanent because it forms a covalent bond with the glass. This means at a microscopic level particles of the coating are actually sharing electrons with molecules of the glass. For all intents and purposes this means it is permanent and literally part of the glass.

As for my testing, I'll stand by it. Particles on the road hit your windshield at up to a practical level of 120mph (oncoming car kicking up pea gravel for instance). Many of those particles are both larger and harder than a BB. More importantly, virtually all of those particles are more damaging to your windshield due to their points, sharp edges, etc. A BB is the most friendly as it's spherical and has no sharp points at all. The testing was valid in that for a hit of the same force there was absolutely no difference in the coated vs uncoated areas of the glass. We tested for various angles, various BB speeds, wet and dry. No difference.

As for looking into it for the water shedding, I'll repeat myself. Who would be interested in paying upwards of $220 for a treatment that RainX duplicates, albeit with a little monthly elbow grease? Anyone? So, there will be no more testing as even the most favorable result possible on the shedding (lasts 5 years) would not be incentive enough to drop that kind of money.

DougM

PS - Flint, I enjoyed your prayer on Chat immensely - nice.
 
I wish it were true.

IdahoDoug said:
Flint,


This means at a microscopic level particles of the coating are actually sharing electrons with molecules of the glass. For all intents and purposes this means it is permanent and literally part of the glass.


As for my testing, I'll stand by it. Particles on the road hit your windshield at up to a practical level of 120mph (oncoming car kicking up pea gravel for instance). Many of those particles are both larger and harder than a BB. More importantly, virtually all of those particles are more damaging to your windshield due to their points, sharp edges, etc. A BB is the most friendly as it's spherical and has no sharp points at all.





I certainly appreciate the theory....but I still think it is flawed, and I believe your "real world" testing has proved that out.

Glass (particularlly molded glass) is not like water that only has "surface" tension, there is stress at the molecular level throughout. The product and process you describe can only address cracks that would occur on or near the surface. Anything below that will not be held in place by something on the surface.

I applaude your efforts and I can tell you put great thought behind your testing.
Apparently, more than the guys promoting it were willing to do.

About that BB thing though, the spherical shape is the precise reason why only a very small portion of it will first contact the windshield.

I agree also that a rock could strike a windshield at up to 120 mph. as you state.

Only thing is........120 mph. is about 176 feet per second, and that pellet gun is probably capable of 800 fps. which would be about 545 miles per hour (divided by two to simulate two vehicles going opposite directions) and we got 272 mph.

Just a tad over the speed limit. Of course you may not have pumped it up that much...in which case I would be "full 'O crap".

We are privileged to have someone like you take the time to honestly test and evaluate a product that all of us might benefit from.

I certainly appreciate it....and I know the others do as well.


Cheers friend.
 
Flint,

Thanks for your kind words. Verifying stuff is both enjoyable and a priviledge to have the time for.

The product was only designed to smooth the surface with a hard layer, not to change anything about it's stress - surface or internal. I recall from my reading that the reason glass breaks so readily is due to this inherent internal stress, so I'm with you there. However, preventing cracks on the surface is all that is needed to make a windshield impervious to abrasion and chips and that's what they attempted to do. Too bad it didn't work.

As to the spherical thing. A random shaped rock has protrusions, flat spots, and even voids comprising it's surface. At a given speed, it's force in PSI could be 10 (such as if a pointy part hits the windshield), or a 1 (such as if a flat spot hits the windshield), but the average PSI of having that rock hit a windshield 100 times would be 5. Might take 1000 hits to statistically average a 5, but eventually it will. A perfectly spherical rock of the same size will provide a PSI on the first hit of 5. On the second hit - a 5. And so on. It's perfectly consistent and uniform in shape. So, testing with a rock would provide random levels of damage and with a BB it provides uniform levels of damage.

Translating that into my real world test, if I propelled a rock at the windshield and caused a chip on the uncoated area I would not know if it was due to the speed or due to an unlucky hit of a pointy part. Doing it again at the coated area and not causing damage, I would again not know if the lack of damage was due to the coating's effectiveness or a lucky hit on a flat spot of the rock.

So, the BB was the best in terms of a repeatable test. And it used a real windshield and a pea gravel sized object actually striking the windshield at high speed.

Speedwise, the only "certain" speed we knew was that the cheap spring type BB gun was rated at 350fps. Really moving. The air gun felt much slower at one pump but it was an unknown speed. So, we focused on using the BB gun since it was A) a known speed, and B) more consistent in speed.

In actual testing, we backed up so far that we were certain there would be no damage as the BB would certainly slow from a way too fast 350fps. Though we really didn't care what the speed was as long as we found a distance to fire at that had enough energy to damage the uncoated area, but that would not damage the coated area. That's a key point. Statistically, our theory was that there was protection provided by the coating.

At 100 feet we were unable to damage the windshield, held at a car like angle in a wood/foam bracket that did not allow for any movement. After 20 shots - not so much as a mark. At 87.5 feet (halfway to our 75 foot marker) again no damage on either coated or uncoated. At 75 feet, the first shot chipped the uncoated area and we were pleased we'd carefully found the sweet spot, anticipating that the coated areas would be impervious. Alas, first shot into the coated area chipped it also. So, we stayed at this range peppering the windshield and tallying hits/damage/zones (we divided it into 3 squares of uncoated labelled 1,2,3 and everything else was coated). No statistical difference.

We even noted that hits on the curved part of the glass tended to be more resistant and did not damage the coated area. Alas again - we could also not damage the uncoated areas on the curves. So again - no difference. So, it was a reasonably controlled, repeatable and accurate test in my opinion. I staked an investment upon its outcome and have absolutely zero doubts about its accuracy for my purposes. It was at this point that we became curious just how much damage the pumped up air rifle could dish out and limbered up with it at 15 pumps. We were all stunned by its power and only did that once.

The sandblast test was similarly accurate, controlled and repeatable though it was over in like 3 seconds. Sandblasters use fairly consistent and clean graded and sifted sand, and they're all moving at the same speed. A single pass over the glass (I covered up 3/4 of it in case we screwed up and were too close so we could try 3 more times) gave it a lightly pitted finish exactly like a windshield around here looks. But no lines appeared separating the coated/uncoated areas. Zippo difference, so we stopped the testing immediately.

As I said, this was disappointing to me. But I'm glad I did it as I would have been not only extremely embarassed when customers started returning in droves, but would have lost some accounts as well.

Regards,

DougM
 
IdahoDoug said:
As for looking into it for the water shedding, I'll repeat myself. Who would be interested in paying upwards of $220 for a treatment that RainX duplicates, albeit with a little monthly elbow grease? Anyone? So, there will be no more testing as even the most favorable result possible on the shedding (lasts 5 years) would not be incentive enough to drop that kind of money.
I know it's not economical, but I would still be curious how your windsield beading holds up over the next few years. I would probably be one of those people who would pay $220 premium on a new vehicle or new windshield for a coating that I was confident would hold up for 5 years with rain-x like performance. Not expecting a scientific experiment, but if you think of it in a year or so let me know how it holds up, or if I think of it I'll post up and ask. I hate applying rain-x but can't live without it's benefits either. :) I guess I'm a :princess: :D
 
Ben,

I'll make a point of it. It's also supposed to shed bugs and dirt more readily (no glass pores to get stuck into).

DougM
 

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