Everyone happy with performance?
Group Buy - 100 Series Headers (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter uzj100
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when I would put headers on V8s in my youth and college I could tell a difference right away with throttle response and low end torque in addition to the sound. Usually required a change to jets on carb...more air and gas in to match the increased flow out back.
i just had not seen anyone post anything noticeable on improvements....mileage or performance...so that is why I was asking. If you work out the performance/mpg increase per dollar in cost of header conversion.....what is the payback period? Would a chip upgrade be better spent money in this regards as the increase would be immediately noticeable in both regards I suspect.
i just had not seen anyone post anything noticeable on improvements....mileage or performance...so that is why I was asking. If you work out the performance/mpg increase per dollar in cost of header conversion.....what is the payback period? Would a chip upgrade be better spent money in this regards as the increase would be immediately noticeable in both regards I suspect.
Brock, I remember reading your posts. I've found a way to justify the costs.
For me, waiting for the manifolds to start leaking forces the issue and being able to a lot of work myself keeps costs down. Second, I've got a 100 other excuses to get into motor a bit, starter contacts is an example. Sure, I could save money and buy manifold gaskets and get mani's repaired but that's very inconvenient and leaves the truck down for a day or more. Better to have a spare set of manifolds you know are good if you're going to all that trouble. And if you don't have a spare set of manifolds why choose to buy the inferior part if you need to make a purchase?
Plus, I'm planning on performing the AirBox mod. That should solve the "air in" in your equation. And enhance the header upgrade to noticeable differences. It's a <$25 mod so why not? My LX doesn't get forded and I'll stay away from K&N.
A chip is probably last on my list and only makes sense when you're willing to pay for it being specifically tuned to your car. At $150 for a couple of dyno pulls and ecu tweeks, its quickly adds to costs of what started as a cheap upgrade. Maybe it's a good idea after changing the intake and exhaust to ensure one is squeezing every last drop out of the motor.
For me, waiting for the manifolds to start leaking forces the issue and being able to a lot of work myself keeps costs down. Second, I've got a 100 other excuses to get into motor a bit, starter contacts is an example. Sure, I could save money and buy manifold gaskets and get mani's repaired but that's very inconvenient and leaves the truck down for a day or more. Better to have a spare set of manifolds you know are good if you're going to all that trouble. And if you don't have a spare set of manifolds why choose to buy the inferior part if you need to make a purchase?
Plus, I'm planning on performing the AirBox mod. That should solve the "air in" in your equation. And enhance the header upgrade to noticeable differences. It's a <$25 mod so why not? My LX doesn't get forded and I'll stay away from K&N.
A chip is probably last on my list and only makes sense when you're willing to pay for it being specifically tuned to your car. At $150 for a couple of dyno pulls and ecu tweeks, its quickly adds to costs of what started as a cheap upgrade. Maybe it's a good idea after changing the intake and exhaust to ensure one is squeezing every last drop out of the motor.
WHY would you EVER take them off!?
I noticed a smoother power band, adding a few HP really isnt going to make my truck faster...but it does pull smoother throughout the power band, low RPM power is definitely better.
lexirdarin,
i tried to quote your post but it didnt work for me...
anyway
"Plus, I'm planning on performing the AirBox mod. That should solve the "air in" in your equation. And enhance the header upgrade to noticeable differences. It's a <$25 mod so why not? My LX doesn't get forded and I'll stay away from K&N."
Why are you staying away from K&N ??
Whilst i have a different air box (Oz V8) i've tested both the factory air cleaner (which is massive by the way) and the oiler from K&N which i think is designed to fit in your air box....and well...coz i service my LC100 regularly there's no dust "post" the air filter be it factory or K&N....
And when i first fitted the K&N i thought "yes it's made a difference" but to be honest i'm not sure now long term...it is very dirty (yes i am due for a service)...but....i haven't had them dyno'd against each other. But on the other hand i had the factory cleaner in the air box this last month....switched back to the K&N and well it does seem better...and yes i removed the intake to see what dust....none....so i can say no "extra" dust is going into the engine...but hey, i am a small "sample" i guess.
For those of you with long memories the Horse Power Factory where i got it dyno'd (pre my nice exhaust) said it was the snorkel that was the issue and i got 84.3kw if i remember....way way down on the supposed Aussie 117kw V8.
cheers
peter
i tried to quote your post but it didnt work for me...
anyway
"Plus, I'm planning on performing the AirBox mod. That should solve the "air in" in your equation. And enhance the header upgrade to noticeable differences. It's a <$25 mod so why not? My LX doesn't get forded and I'll stay away from K&N."
Why are you staying away from K&N ??
Whilst i have a different air box (Oz V8) i've tested both the factory air cleaner (which is massive by the way) and the oiler from K&N which i think is designed to fit in your air box....and well...coz i service my LC100 regularly there's no dust "post" the air filter be it factory or K&N....
And when i first fitted the K&N i thought "yes it's made a difference" but to be honest i'm not sure now long term...it is very dirty (yes i am due for a service)...but....i haven't had them dyno'd against each other. But on the other hand i had the factory cleaner in the air box this last month....switched back to the K&N and well it does seem better...and yes i removed the intake to see what dust....none....so i can say no "extra" dust is going into the engine...but hey, i am a small "sample" i guess.
For those of you with long memories the Horse Power Factory where i got it dyno'd (pre my nice exhaust) said it was the snorkel that was the issue and i got 84.3kw if i remember....way way down on the supposed Aussie 117kw V8.
cheers
peter
i might have missed something here and smack me in the face with a tuna and call me a fisherman, but why WOULDN'T you get a re-tune once you've fitted new extractors/headers?
Piggy back ECUs are a luxury (and on my list...long list) but do your Toyota / Lexus dealers REALLY retune for you?
I genuinely ask that...coz our dealers here are....well.....yeah...you've read the various posts over the years from us Aussies.
I've had to "pay through the nose" to get a performance place to analyse my LC...Toyota dont give a f*** here. You guys are so lucky over there.
peter
Piggy back ECUs are a luxury (and on my list...long list) but do your Toyota / Lexus dealers REALLY retune for you?
I genuinely ask that...coz our dealers here are....well.....yeah...you've read the various posts over the years from us Aussies.
I've had to "pay through the nose" to get a performance place to analyse my LC...Toyota dont give a f*** here. You guys are so lucky over there.
peter
Moooo-
My response to your first post, is that K&N filters seem (from my reading) to have a problem with discharging a very very thin film of oil that can tamper with the MAF. Thusly, causing some issues with performance or reliability. I'm not too familiar with the MAF or sensors for intake but I do know them to be extremely sensitive and tricky.
An example, I had my airbox out for 6 hours last weekend during an HID conversion for the headlights. After putting the car back together I had serious problems with the LX470: it wouldn't stay running below 1,500rpm, it had trouble starting, it was kicking back several warning lights, etc.
Turns out there was some moisture buildup on the intake and airbox that caused one of the intake sensors to go screwy. It was temporary but how finicky is this? I live in California too so imagine 55 degrees and overcast giving your car problems.
My response to your second post: I'm definitely on the fence as to the value of buying a chip. I was really trying to help Brock see how the header upgrade, for me, should be part of something bigger and timed when the costs justify themselves a bit. Also, from my hot rodding days, I spoke about some of my knowledge regarding ECU's/chips and how to use them best. I was speaking more to the point of visiting a specialty shop. Such as a local tuner or something. No way do I think and Dealership will tune your car's electronics.
In general, it seems there's little that can be done to this motor to improve performance. What I see as options for me are one of only a couple things: a big bore rebuild when the motor dies (or when hell freeze over), a supercharger (if I'm lucky enough to find all the specs/parts to keep the costs reasonable - around $5k or less), or lastly upgrading several parts that, when combined, adds up to something more substantial (like headers, intake, ECU that's tuned after install).
My response to your first post, is that K&N filters seem (from my reading) to have a problem with discharging a very very thin film of oil that can tamper with the MAF. Thusly, causing some issues with performance or reliability. I'm not too familiar with the MAF or sensors for intake but I do know them to be extremely sensitive and tricky.
An example, I had my airbox out for 6 hours last weekend during an HID conversion for the headlights. After putting the car back together I had serious problems with the LX470: it wouldn't stay running below 1,500rpm, it had trouble starting, it was kicking back several warning lights, etc.
Turns out there was some moisture buildup on the intake and airbox that caused one of the intake sensors to go screwy. It was temporary but how finicky is this? I live in California too so imagine 55 degrees and overcast giving your car problems.
My response to your second post: I'm definitely on the fence as to the value of buying a chip. I was really trying to help Brock see how the header upgrade, for me, should be part of something bigger and timed when the costs justify themselves a bit. Also, from my hot rodding days, I spoke about some of my knowledge regarding ECU's/chips and how to use them best. I was speaking more to the point of visiting a specialty shop. Such as a local tuner or something. No way do I think and Dealership will tune your car's electronics.
In general, it seems there's little that can be done to this motor to improve performance. What I see as options for me are one of only a couple things: a big bore rebuild when the motor dies (or when hell freeze over), a supercharger (if I'm lucky enough to find all the specs/parts to keep the costs reasonable - around $5k or less), or lastly upgrading several parts that, when combined, adds up to something more substantial (like headers, intake, ECU that's tuned after install).
In regards to the discussion about the minimal performance improvement, I think the dyno plot on thread 607 is pretty substantial. This, of course, assumes that we have identical powerband mapping and header response as the Tundy, but I gotta believe it's representative. it's just that the butt-dyno doesn't pick it up very well on a 3-ton 4WD truck.
Dyno Chart
Perhaps someone would be willing to invest in one of these to verify our results? Butt Dyno [ARSE411] - $399.95 : KaleCoAuto, Hard to find automotive items!
Dyno Chart
Perhaps someone would be willing to invest in one of these to verify our results? Butt Dyno [ARSE411] - $399.95 : KaleCoAuto, Hard to find automotive items!
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thanks for that reply.
good points. yeah i'm still hoping for the supercharger, but that's sinking lower on my list as my suspension is so bad now i really have to be careful driving it anywhere now. I'll be getting an Ironman suspension kit as that's
1) good value for the $$ (quote was $1250 Oz)
2) will lift it 40-50mm and fix the "danger" that is my LC at the moment
3) last a few years if i really want to go down the Bilstein route later.
Downside is i park in city car parks in Melbourne. 40-50mm will be too high for my no 1 car park place (1.9m clearance) and probably no 2 (2.10m) as well. There's no way i'm catching the train to work so i might need a "plan C" for that....nfi what that is at the moment.
The reason i mentioned the K&N and dust is that several people have said it lets in a lot of dust and whatever else. But i get mine serviced every time the LC is serviced and i've started checking the intake tube after the air cleaner box everytime i go on the dirt and there's nothing in there.I get a white cloth and wipe around the tube there...nothing...but i do take advice and when the K&N looks dirty (usually before i'm due a service) i swap back in the big factory air cleaner.
So i havent totally trusted the K&N yet as in summer (now) when the tracks are dusty i swap in the factory filter for peace of mind.
Having said that, my white cloth wipe down with the factory filter has shown some dust...so what do you do?
As far as our dealers tuning things here - they are on a fixed price servicing model. And i've had services where they havent even serviced it. Same oil filter, same old oil when i got home and checked it.
Yes i should have checked it, but hey, sometimes you trust people.
My LC is no longer serviced by Toyota since i own it outright (March 31 2009) after leasing it and my local 4x4 place has always fixed up Toyotas mistakes...at my cost and with my emails of complaint sent off to Toyota.
cheers
peter
OregonLC -
I looked at the chart you're referencing. It appears that the Headers make about a 10 hp increase through most of the power band. 10 hp is 10 more than I have now. On a 5,500lb vehicle, I don't know if that's significant enough to be called anything other than minimal.
I bet there's good logic behind the idea that opening up the intake a bit and even tuning the motor with an aftermarket chip would help substantiate the Butt Dyno. This is just a guess but I imagine from reading other posts on here that you'll get close to 25hp, maybe 35 (although that might be reaching).
I think doing the headers when you already have a manifold expense helps validate the costs of a header upgrade. Does that give the header upgrade a better value? Does for me. The intake is a cheap mod (although there are varying degrees of acceptance on this upgrade; UZJE or someone got 10hp from a DIY box upgrade). And the chip and tuning can be justified with it's minimal costs, and if the chip is tuned, you likely increase the efficiency per performance.
A DIYer could do all this for roughly $1,000; everyone else might be in the $3,000 range. Worth it? I dunno but it sure beats paying another $15k for an '06 with 40 extra horse power.
I looked at the chart you're referencing. It appears that the Headers make about a 10 hp increase through most of the power band. 10 hp is 10 more than I have now. On a 5,500lb vehicle, I don't know if that's significant enough to be called anything other than minimal.
I bet there's good logic behind the idea that opening up the intake a bit and even tuning the motor with an aftermarket chip would help substantiate the Butt Dyno. This is just a guess but I imagine from reading other posts on here that you'll get close to 25hp, maybe 35 (although that might be reaching).
I think doing the headers when you already have a manifold expense helps validate the costs of a header upgrade. Does that give the header upgrade a better value? Does for me. The intake is a cheap mod (although there are varying degrees of acceptance on this upgrade; UZJE or someone got 10hp from a DIY box upgrade). And the chip and tuning can be justified with it's minimal costs, and if the chip is tuned, you likely increase the efficiency per performance.
A DIYer could do all this for roughly $1,000; everyone else might be in the $3,000 range. Worth it? I dunno but it sure beats paying another $15k for an '06 with 40 extra horse power.
I spoke with Nick this morning. Very nice guy. I ordered a set. The price was 540 + 30 for shipping. He informed me that they only have 3 sets left of the initial group buy. He did tell me that they will do another group run in the future if there is interest. Said they would do 10 or so.
Just thought I would give everyone a heads up in case you were on the fence about ordering a set.
Just thought I would give everyone a heads up in case you were on the fence about ordering a set.
Waiting til the Jan 1.
Fingers crossed.
Fingers crossed.
Headers installed!
Got the LX back from the mechanic today. Install went smooth, only heartburn was getting the studs out - vermont winters caused virtually all of them to sieze. I'd asked them to order a complete set, so they're all new now. Also put in new 02 sensors. They did not have to pull the steering column. They were very impressed with the quality of the headers - they were skeptical at the start - but really had great things to say about them after the install.
Can't yet say whether performance change is noticable or if gas mileage will improve, but as one earlier poster suggested, it is extremely quiet again. The leaky manifold was really causing a racket and it's great to have that gone.
Got the LX back from the mechanic today. Install went smooth, only heartburn was getting the studs out - vermont winters caused virtually all of them to sieze. I'd asked them to order a complete set, so they're all new now. Also put in new 02 sensors. They did not have to pull the steering column. They were very impressed with the quality of the headers - they were skeptical at the start - but really had great things to say about them after the install.
Can't yet say whether performance change is noticable or if gas mileage will improve, but as one earlier poster suggested, it is extremely quiet again. The leaky manifold was really causing a racket and it's great to have that gone.
Dang, how much did they have to jack the engine to not have to remove the steering shaft!?! After doing the install myself, I can't imagine there being enough room.
Thanks for the update. I think they have sold just under 40 sets of these, with no major complaints and lots of happy customers. For the $600 bucks I have to say this was a good deal, and a much better solution to the cracked header syndrome. I hope they continue to produce these, since I know it will be a problem for most if not all LC's in the future.
For them the hard part's over and done. Now its just a matter of order taking...
Thanks again for being the TNT on this project!
Didn't ask, I was too eager to get in and drive it. The instructions from Doug Thorley specified jacking the engine up 2" and made no mention of removing the steering column.
This was a great thing you folks put together this group buy and provided all the installation tips and support. I think this is a way better outcome than just replacing the OEM manifolds and I'm really grateful to everybody for the help.
One other thing I wanted to mention - new 02 sensors from Amazon - cost $55 each - Denso w/ oem plug. Denso site had them for $65 plus shipping. Most other places I looked wanted $120 - $140 each.
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i'm looking into that even though yes i know i have a different airbox than you....my dyno i got if you remember pre-my exhaust upgrade said it was my snorkel that was restricting the performance - 84.something kW vs supposed 110kW at the wheels.
I'll open another forum thread about that when i have the info.
So here we are, almost Christmas. I'd like to congratulate you on getting the group buy and hope that you all enjoy something that Toyoya should have released. Yes mine is different, which is my choice, but it's good to see proper headers/extractors on a nice V8 which you guys have chosen.
Have a great break, i hope to post some good articles of my LC in 2011 as i have a lot of things on the list that are now booked in.
take care and think of us down in Oz on our 30+C days trying to cook roast beef and turkeys
I'll crack open a few beers for you and say cheers and best wishes to the people stuck in the snow
cheers
peter
