How much should we allocate per person?
Where should the funds be held?
Who should have access to them?
Where should the funds be held?
Who should have access to them?
Funds
- Thread starter Trollhole
- Start date
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Good questions and the answer depends directly on what sort of parts we plan on going with to start out with.
I think that it would be prudent that we have more than one person who is accountable to the group for the funds on hand. I'm not saying that anyone is dishonest but a pot of cash looks tempting if the paycheck is late, even if the intention is to repay!! As I live in Central America I cannot access a US bank easily so I cannot be one of the treasurers.
Access needs to be decided by the group once we have firm prices for reproductions. I'd say in the form of a group poll that runs for a fixed amount of time. eg: "Widgit A" costs $50 and 75% of the group approve in a poll open for a week or two then the person responsible for "Widgit A" is given access to the required funds to produce this part. If only 40% approve then "Widgit A" does not get made.
I think that it would be prudent that we have more than one person who is accountable to the group for the funds on hand. I'm not saying that anyone is dishonest but a pot of cash looks tempting if the paycheck is late, even if the intention is to repay!! As I live in Central America I cannot access a US bank easily so I cannot be one of the treasurers.
Access needs to be decided by the group once we have firm prices for reproductions. I'd say in the form of a group poll that runs for a fixed amount of time. eg: "Widgit A" costs $50 and 75% of the group approve in a poll open for a week or two then the person responsible for "Widgit A" is given access to the required funds to produce this part. If only 40% approve then "Widgit A" does not get made.
- Thread starter
- #3
I also think that once we decide on the first production and we have decided on an amount to put into the pot that those who do not donate be removed from the PPG area. As bad as that sounds I think it would be the only fair way of doing this. Otherwise anyone could join for nothing out of pocket and still get the same deals as those that invested their hard earned money. Then if anyone wanted to join they would have to do the same investment as the original members and the money would go into the pot for making more parts.
Thoughts? Ideas on how this could be overcome?
Thoughts on potential vendors joining the group for input?
Thoughts? Ideas on how this could be overcome?
Thoughts on potential vendors joining the group for input?
- Thread starter
- #4
I've got mixed feelings on how to handle funds vs parts availability.
I don't see a reason to make this forum private because then people wouldn't have an idea what they are missing or what kind of deals they are missing out on. The only restriction I could see is when it comes time to figure what parts and when to make them, they have no say.
But I think in order to get in on the "deal price", they need to "buy in". Sort of like a CostCo or Sam's club setup. You need a membership to get the good prices but you can still see what is available and what the good prices are
Just as an example, lets say we make rear tail light gaskets. For those that put money in the PPG, they get them for $40 a pair... once the people in PPG get the ones they want, we make them available for $60 to those who aren't members of PPG.
One concern is figuring out how to determine prices and how to mark them up. There needs to be some incentive to get people to WANT to put money into PPG.
As an example, lets say we provided SloCruiser fixed window gaskets he sells for $400ish. Lets say PPG produces them for $300 so those who put money into PPG gets them for $300. Then whatever stock was left over was sold to SloCruiser for $350-$375. If I was getting THAT much of a discount on a gasket, I would be more than happy to put $100+ up front to get in on PPG.
The other concern I have is determining how many of an item to make. Do we make as many as we have cash? Do we just make one for every PPG member?
As an example, lets say we do a run on tail light body gaskets and have 20 PPG members. Do we only make 20? Do we make the 100 we can afford?
Related to the previous, if we do a "short" run, how do we determine who gets the parts first? Based upon time in PPG? Based upon money put into PPG? Random? Popularity?
Last concern/comment for now is how do we determine whether a guy gets the PPG discount for a part? Do they immediately get a discount on any part we are in the process of making? Do they get the discount on any part we've already put out?
As an example, lets say we are in the middle of a run for grill mounted turn signals and someone joins PPG that wants a set. Does he immediately get the PPG discount? Does he get the "mud" discount? Or does he get the "sorry, you have to wait for vendor availability"?
All good questions and great ideas. I don't like the idea of making it private and having people who join invest money. I just don't know any other way of doing it. I'm sure smarter people have a better ideas.
Issues I could potentially see.
Open forum would let everyone know what prices we pay for items. Even people who are just browsing MUD. A private forum prevents that. ALso if I was a vendor who was buying these parts I wouldn't want my customers to know what I paid for them. That kind of stuff is usually kept private.
Also if everyone on MUD came in and no vendors wanted to buy the product how would you go about selling it? Also what would stop someone from seeing who we are using and go to them directly to get the part made. Remember we will be doing all the hard work paying for molds and tooling once that is done most parts are pretty easy to reproduce. I can think of at least one issue where someone circumvented the people who sold the products and had them made only to royaly piss off everyone.
I guess I kind of look at it like a group buy. Why bother being involved in one if your not going to spend the money to buy something.
We are in unchartered waters when it comes to involving this in a public forum. That being said it could flounder or flourish. If we are successful in pulling this off we would be the template for other sections of MUD to use. Imagine what the 45 and 25 guys could accomplish with something like this? We find the right vendors who are willing to work with us and produce parts economically for us it's a win win for everyone. Parts start getting manufactured that have never been made. Cruisers start coming back to life. Vendors start getting more parts without a big upfront cost. In the end everyone gets something.
Best part about it is to be able to have some buying power with vendors. Most don't want to deal with a single individual who just wants a few part. If we have the backing of 10-20 people and the backing financially to make these parts they will be a heck of a lot more interested in listening to us.
Now is the time with the economy the way it is. Manufacturers are more willing now to make small runs more than ever.
I certainly want to participate. I have a problem with cash flow at this minute as I have to allocate funds to get my cruiser on the road. I'm in deep with my mechanic so I can't let them down. I will be watching closely to see if there is a deadline. I hope to be able to contribute in the next couple of months and will work hard to be part of the group. Hats off to everyone on this endeavor, dave
I, too, am willing to put in initial $, but, what products are we talking about? And what about the different year specs?
I think it MUST remain private. We can post on the regular forum that we have "widget A" now available at say 10 - 15% less that the folks who buy our excess will be selling it for but it is only available for a limited time (until the vendor buys and comes through with the cash).
Vendors WILL NOT be eager for the average joe to know their markup. Don't fool yourselves, it's not 10 - 15%, it's more like 50 - 100% or I guarantee the vendors WILL NOT BUY our excess.
But I think in order to get in on the "deal price", they need to "buy in". Sort of like a CostCo or Sam's club setup. You need a membership to get the good prices but you can still see what is available and what the good prices are.
Don't fool yourselves, Costco or Sam's Club also have a good markup but they make money on volume as well. Pig parts are most certainly NOT volume!!
As I said earlier, you WILL NOT find a buyer for excess stock if he can only realize a return of 10% or so. I think the benefit of having a vendor is going to be allowing us to get our volume up to the minimum required to produce the part economically. As much as me may find it distasteful I think a vendor will likely get the same price as we do simply for the favor of taking our excess. We don't have to like it but that's how it will be, I'm SURE of it.
The other concern I have is determining how many of an item to make. Do we make as many as we have cash? Do we just make one for every PPG member?
As an example, lets say we do a run on tail light body gaskets and have 20 PPG members. Do we only make 20? Do we make the 100 we can afford?
Related to the previous, if we do a "short" run, how do we determine who gets the parts first? Based upon time in PPG? Based upon money put into PPG? Random? Popularity?
If we have good relationships with vendors (give them the possibility of a markup that they need to stay in business) then we will be able to get a little volume which will reduce our costs. I think we make a run as large as a vender will commit to buy and then when all PPG members have had their chance the remainder is gone FOREVER to the vendor. You snooze, you loose!!
If you join up before the goods go to the vendor you can get "in" but remember from above, it goes to the vendor relatively quickly. We CANNOT be a stocking warehouse of piggy parts!
Another possibility here too is that perhaps we can work with a certain vendor, say Spector for instance, and as members of the PPG he gives us a 10% discount on his normal stock because we are providing him parts he can sell at a profit to others. Just something to think about. It may make the "medicine of selling our excess" go down a little easier!!
I think this is a good idea. It will help folks who have not been in business to understand a little the workings of business and how we CANNOT expect vendors to pay us a mere 10% less than the average joe will pay them.
I have been in business for over 10 years as a sub contractor. When I started out an older fellow who was also a business man told me not to price myself too low. I asked him what that meant. He told me in the early '90's that $50/hour was as low as he would recommend (I was at about $20/hour then)!! I took that to heart when making my first quotes. Imagine my surprise when I was the low quote!! Did I make a killing? No, but I did do better than if I was working for someone else but I did not have a new car every year or a house in the best area of town etc. etc.
I guess I'm trying to say we MUST allow the vendors to have a markup they need to survive in business.
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John, I think we need to make it clear to folks outside of the PPG that they will not get the "at cost" price. We say something along the lines of:
"We members of the PPG are producing piggy parts and members ONLY will have the opportunity to buy "at cost". Membership is permanent and non-refundable. Excess parts will be sold to a parts vendor for retail sale at whichever markup the vendor deems necessary as PPG will NOT keep stock of excess parts."
Membership MUST be permanent so folks do not ask for a refund of membership fees after their "pet project" is complete. Folks needing only one or two items would be best to purchase from the retail vendor but folks wanting/needing more can be PPG members. Folks have to know that there is a significant markup in retail. Frankly, I'd bet that the markup on specialty stuff (stuff that doesn't move real fast) is actually higher than stuff that sells in larger quantities. It all goes back to the volume thing, more volume better prices and less markup needed for the same profit. If say Marv buys our excess and needs to stock it for 5 years till it's all gone he needs to pay interest on that expense. In order to make a profit the markup is that much higher!!
On the issue of rights of reproduction, I think those rights stay with the PPG. It would be no different that any other manufacturer and store. If say Marv at SOR buys our excess stock of widgets and they fly off the shelf and he wants more then that is an opportunity for the PPG to make a little extra with a second run of parts.
I think we need to be careful that members do not attempt to undercut whoever buys our excess (by buying excess quantities and selling on the side) otherwise we will quickly loose whatever vendors we might get on our side. Members need to agree not to buy what they are not going to personally use.
"We members of the PPG are producing piggy parts and members ONLY will have the opportunity to buy "at cost". Membership is permanent and non-refundable. Excess parts will be sold to a parts vendor for retail sale at whichever markup the vendor deems necessary as PPG will NOT keep stock of excess parts."
Membership MUST be permanent so folks do not ask for a refund of membership fees after their "pet project" is complete. Folks needing only one or two items would be best to purchase from the retail vendor but folks wanting/needing more can be PPG members. Folks have to know that there is a significant markup in retail. Frankly, I'd bet that the markup on specialty stuff (stuff that doesn't move real fast) is actually higher than stuff that sells in larger quantities. It all goes back to the volume thing, more volume better prices and less markup needed for the same profit. If say Marv buys our excess and needs to stock it for 5 years till it's all gone he needs to pay interest on that expense. In order to make a profit the markup is that much higher!!
On the issue of rights of reproduction, I think those rights stay with the PPG. It would be no different that any other manufacturer and store. If say Marv at SOR buys our excess stock of widgets and they fly off the shelf and he wants more then that is an opportunity for the PPG to make a little extra with a second run of parts.
I think we need to be careful that members do not attempt to undercut whoever buys our excess (by buying excess quantities and selling on the side) otherwise we will quickly loose whatever vendors we might get on our side. Members need to agree not to buy what they are not going to personally use.
i'm in the remain private camp. we can easily state that there is a "substantial savings" by being a member of the ppg. we don't have to tell them it's a set amount.
i also agree that undercutting on sale should be a non refundable ban from the ppg.
as for quantities produced, it should depend on what the group determines for that individual part. remember, you'll get a lot that say they want it but don't pony up (shameless plug for cargo vent grills
), but we can't just pick a set amount and order the same amount of every item. some will be more rare, but used less.
we can do a poll for each item and everyone can state if they think we should build it and how may should be produced.
as for a club...we're the pig parts club. this is our forum. you buy in with club dues. as for stickiness with the tax man, i think we're small enough to get by unnoticed. if we do get noticed, it will be through a larger vendor like specter, so maybe approach someone like slocruiser first.
for financial reasons, i won't be purchasing many products (unless i get a better job or a sugar daddy, but that's looking slim
), but i want to help out in any way possible.
i also agree that undercutting on sale should be a non refundable ban from the ppg.
as for quantities produced, it should depend on what the group determines for that individual part. remember, you'll get a lot that say they want it but don't pony up (shameless plug for cargo vent grills
), but we can't just pick a set amount and order the same amount of every item. some will be more rare, but used less.we can do a poll for each item and everyone can state if they think we should build it and how may should be produced.
as for a club...we're the pig parts club. this is our forum. you buy in with club dues. as for stickiness with the tax man, i think we're small enough to get by unnoticed. if we do get noticed, it will be through a larger vendor like specter, so maybe approach someone like slocruiser first.
for financial reasons, i won't be purchasing many products (unless i get a better job or a sugar daddy, but that's looking slim
), but i want to help out in any way possible.
as for quantities produced, it should depend on what the group determines for that individual part. remember, you'll get a lot that say they want it but don't pony up (shameless plug for cargo vent grills
we can do a poll for each item and everyone can state if they think we should build it and how may should be produced.
We do a poll of who wants in on this part, then folks come up with the cash to produce and buy (limited time frame, say till all details are worked out) the quantity of parts needed IN ADVANCE (the cash to produce should be there in the form of membership). That way we have parts prepaid and if folks change their mind, find one at the local wrecker or whatever there's NO refunds. Contact potential vendors and see if they are interested in whatever the excess is to get to the minimum or most cost effective run size (they too can sign a contract). When all works out, produce the part, distribute and move on to the next part.
I don't think we should produce parts on speculation and hope that we can sell them at a later date. Get all buyers lined up BEFORE taking the plunge. We're all familiar with folks who say "Me, me!!" but when the time to put up the cash comes.......
When I made the brass rear window gears it was on a pay in advance basis and it worked fine. A few folks came after the fact and for them it was "You snooze, you loose!!", I did not make extras for "Justin Case".
Well? back to one of the first steps is defining the goal.
1) Just parts for us per project?
2) Or production of some excess percentage that expands a kitty, hits an efficient buy in quantity/price ratio of production and ergo generates materials for Pig Owners via selling excess production to external vendors?
I have not had a lot of reading time...but I am not seeing a definitave consensus here?
1) Just parts for us per project?
2) Or production of some excess percentage that expands a kitty, hits an efficient buy in quantity/price ratio of production and ergo generates materials for Pig Owners via selling excess production to external vendors?
I have not had a lot of reading time...but I am not seeing a definitave consensus here?
If the latter (2) then I am imagining only a number in excess that is viable to up front costs with a spec contract at price to a 3rd party vendor.
Ok sorry for blabbering...just trying to get a handle on it.
Which BTW, lots of distractions and work for me at this time. An Operation Dec 1st....Sooo...If I miss some vital "pony up" here please, someone PM me before dropping me...I may just not be tuned in at the time....just could be that I am not able to get to a PC or later flying on "Dr Feelgoods" prescriptions.
Ok sorry for blabbering...just trying to get a handle on it.
Which BTW, lots of distractions and work for me at this time. An Operation Dec 1st....Sooo...If I miss some vital "pony up" here please, someone PM me before dropping me...I may just not be tuned in at the time....just could be that I am not able to get to a PC or later flying on "Dr Feelgoods" prescriptions.
Eric, the way I see this working is we talk to folks like Marv at Spector and others and see if they are willing to purchase the part and if so, in what quantities. Folks in the PPG put up their cash (we can't do the "Yes, when they're ready I'll pay, routine.", it needs to be cash first, part fabbing second, and when we have the PPG folks cash and a committed vendor then we'll know a quantity to make. Obviously this is going to change pricing a little if we do not get as many as we hope but frankly I don't think we'll ever be talking of more than 40-50 parts in any run between interested piggy owners and a vendor (and that would be a pretty desired part).
This is something that I'm having to work through with the FJ45LV right now. Eshan says he'll make rear quarter panels but he needs at least 5 committed buyers. Folks say they are interested but when you start to follow through the interest seems to wane.
This is something that I'm having to work through with the FJ45LV right now. Eshan says he'll make rear quarter panels but he needs at least 5 committed buyers. Folks say they are interested but when you start to follow through the interest seems to wane.
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- Thread starter
- #16
Well just look at the sheet metal thread that was started 3 years ago and to this day about 5 pieces have been produced. Money talks, Bull**** walks.
That was the main reason for starting this group was to get us all together. To get our funds together. Not everyone is gonna want one or two of the first part this group decides on. We all need to get it out of our heads that we are only gonna produce only the parts you need. There are gonna be all kinds of things I don't need because I've already bought them. But I'm willing to throw cash into the project knowing something down the line I will need and that this project helps everyone.
I say we take every part case by case. Once we have all the numbers about a part we can then decide the best route to present it to vendors. Every potential manufacturer we get to bid will have different stipulations. We just need to find one that works for certain parts and stick with them. Knowing more parts will be coming down the line from us as well as other sections of MUD should be plenty appealing to them to want to do the project.
I think this has to be the base for ANY part we plan on producing!
You want it? Put up the cash required BEFORE production or shut up! We need to have everything pre-sold before production or we become a parts warehouse and I don't think anyone wants to do that.
- Thread starter
- #18
I was more talking about us.
We have been talking for 3years about getting something done and never have. I'm determined to do something this time.I don't think a vendor needs to pay for a product they have never seen. I would suspect that whoever we get to make the part will do a prototype. This can be sent to vendors who show interest.
We really need to look at this as just a venture for us to produce just the parts we need. If a vendors would like some then that is icing on the cake.
I think that whatever manufacturer we use needs to know we want quality. If the quality is not there then we don't pay and vendors won't buy! Vendors who are 'Cruiser savvy will know the parts and if we say we're producing "Widgit A" then they'll know if folks have been asking for that and how many they might sell, and based on that info that can say "I'd like 10 or 100 or whatever." Vendors can contract and say they'll take it based on the quality of the finished product.
If it is just the two dozen of us I can't see this going anywhere as no one will commit to make just a few of any one part and not all of us will even want each and every part. We need the volume that selling to a vendor will give us.
The cash is there so we can buy the excess. I figure that we as a group probably will only take 10 - 15 of whatever we make at most. For volume discounts and sometimes even just to have manufacturers talk to us we need to order 50 or 100 units or more. Vendors will not want to front significant sums to get parts made (if they did they'd be doing it already!), nor will they be keen on paying now for delivery in 3-4 months or more. Generally they get the goods and then they pay for them. That means we will need to have cash in the interm. Think of it as interm financing
!!If we wait to ask for cash after the parts get made we'll be left "holding the bag" on ALOT of parts!