Front recovery Points

[CarolinaGX]

There seems to be a shortage of recovery points for our trucks. The Apex are out of stock and I am not able to find any other options. Can anyone point me in a good direction or give me specs on recovery points they have (metal thickness mostly)? I am able to make my own if necessary but I dont know what i should make them from, 1/8" or 1/4" or XX?

I am going on my first outing with this truck this weekend and want something in case i get in over my head.

 

[Jstawgn]

Trail tailor and treaty oak off road make one. I am waiting for confirmation if 150 series can be used. I think 150 styke would be much stronger if it will fit.

I cannot use apex style since I have KDSS.

 

[Lifted]

I got in over my head today. In Pagosa Springs on a normal gravel road. I wasn’t even going wheeling per se I had my parents with me and we were just going for a drive. My mom asked me to pull over so she could take a picture. So I did. She tells me to back up. So I do. Next thing I know, this happened:

This is my stock rig and I could not get out. We had to call a tow truck On Easter Sunday. Buckskin Towimg was awesome they were there within minutes and he winched me out with no problem. And hence why I’m posting here. We just used the factory recovery in front and had no issues. wish I’d taken a shot of the “mud” I had to rinse off at the local car wash. It was mostly rocks. Here it is after recovery you can see the shadow of the tow truck. Ugh.

Not saying you shouldn’t get beefier points but for a weekend you should be ok I would hope after this.

 

[HomersCanyonero]

Wow. I was just going to say to use a bridle from the tie down loops as an option while you find good recovery points that attach to the frame and not just attach to the horns off the frame.

You made the point a lot more concretely.

 

[DRANGED]

Wow. I was just going to say to use a bridle from the tie down loops as an option while you find good recovery points that attach to the frame and not just attach to the horns off the frame.

You made the point a lot more concretely.

I too have been down this road (not the axle-deep burry, just the aftermarket 'recovery point' marketing hook), and even impulsed and installed treaty Oak points....which don't fit shackles on my 07 sport (more a.post 06 than a KDSS thing). . . .

Pre 06 do fit.shackles, but (AFAIK) those were the surface-welded loops. There's SO much internet lore attesting to strength of this vs that but no real data. 1/2" plate steel points look rad but are at BEST only decent when paired and in straight pulls (save Apex, their 3 points of contact over a larger and.suggest (to mine non-engineer brain, pretty stout off of a linear pull...but. . . ). Aussies attest to 150-spec aftermarket bolting up to 120s. The typical 2-bolt.recocery points have inversely proportional use /strength in increasing divergence from straight-line.pulls.

This post recaptures the most arguably convincing dialogue supporting the usefulness and utility of the post 06, welded-through-the-box-frame loops. I have not been able to definitively find a reliable source, hands down, poving those loops are anything more than 'transport loops". Tons of anecdode and lore but no science or support from manufacturers. I have pix from my owners manual in my photo album suggesting they're good for flat towing, bit nothing indicating transport tie downs, nor off road, off-angle recovery.

I pose again for want of data, and while I post the following as internet opinion, it's written convincingly. I'm a biologist not a materials science engineer, so Im happy to be proven wrong if I misunderstand the terminology and interpretation.

Read this y'all and dissect it.
I've heard from trusted sources the aftermarket are great. I've heard from trusted sources the factory are great.

Let's get to the bottom of the factory tie-down/recovery point discussion!

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[rockyjco]

I pulled 8 cars and trucks out of snowdrifts this last snowstorm here in CO from the front recovery points no problem. These GX's are beastly.

 

[James C]

All excellent points, and valid concerns.

That being said, I've got a set of the Trail Tailor front recovery points for sale cheap now that we have a front bumper!

 

[HomersCanyonero]

@DRANGED the only negative I ever saw was the wafras video from the prado where the horns and cross member were ripped through the front. The weak point was not the tie down loops...it was the horns that detached from the frame.

The apex recovery points reinforce those horns by attaching with 3 existing bolts to the frame and an extra bolt to the horns.

The prado 150 recovery points also attach to the frame and the horn using less bolts than the apex, but at least it bolts on to the frame and not just the horns.

Anyways, I don’t have any supporting evidence other than my brain freaking out over the video (possibly a freak accident that the horns were ripped from the prado frame), visually inspecting the horns, and figuring out that a 45 degree bracket strengthening the horns to the frame was a good thing to have.

Now I feel that even the tie down loops are secure enough to recover myself or other vehicles. Again, I felt that the tie down loops were not the weak point, but rather the horns were the weak point.

 

[tlin]

I just emailed Apex - being a non-KDSS guy, their solution seems ideal to me. I also mentioned to my note to them that I'm positive we can get a group buy going - between Mud and GXOR, I'm hoping there are enough to make a production run worth their while. I'll circle back if they get in touch.

As a former civil engineer (been a long time), their solution just makes good, structural sense addressing the potential weak spot with the OEM loops (positioned relatively low, creating a moment/torque at the frame's attachment point of the "horns").

 

[DRANGED]

I just emailed Apex - being a non-KDSS guy, their solution seems ideal to me. I also mentioned to my note to them that I'm positive we can get a group buy going - between Mud and GXOR, I'm hoping there are enough to make a production run worth their while. I'll circle back if they get in touch.

As a former civil engineer (been a long time), their solution just makes good, structural sense addressing the potential weak spot with the OEM loops (positioned relatively low, creating a moment/torque at the frame's attachment point of the "horns").

How does this apply to pre 06 back post.06, loop.welded to bottom of.box vs welded through box...?
Wouldn't forces be.low,.typically anyway, from a rear recovery/hitch shackle? Typical recovery.

 

[HomersCanyonero]

@DRANGED i didn’t understand your question.

You need to switch to soft shackles and maybe they fit your recovery points.

 

[MaverickFiveO]

How does this apply to pre 06 back post.06, loop.welded to bottom of.box vs welded through box...?
Wouldn't forces be.low,.typically anyway, from a rear recovery/hitch shackle? Typical recovery.

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If I understood your question correctly, you'd ideally want a combination of the two tie-down styles. The curved (downward) loops of the post 06 style (bottom picture) would introduce stress risers in the radius of the downward curve. However, the single-sided weld of the pre-06 style would load up on shear forces inside the weld and have a greater moment (lever arm) on the horns. The weld is typically, from a microstructural standpoint (I am a Materials Scientist), the lowest strength portion of the metal due to the recrystallization of the metal. Interestingly, the change to the tie downs really reflects the intended use. The original design was not great for downward angled tie-downs during shipping. The newer curved design is better for transport, but worse for straightline pulls. I would wager the "through the box" mount is better for off-line pulls, however.

To answer your ultimate question, in either case, I think it would take an exceptional recovery (think a 10mph snatch off of a rock high-center) to generate a force where the difference between the recovery points and the tie-down points. I will say that the Apex points, in addition to having more connection points, have a longer lever arm for off-axis pulls. You'd get lower forces on the fasteners if something were to start moving. That's a big if, however, since these are generally pretty stout and overbuilt for what most of us use them for.

This is my understanding. Anyone can feel free to correct my thinking if you see mistakes or misunderstandings. I've been mulling over recovery points vs. bumper, too.

 

[tlin]

Apex emailed me back - they build these in batches, next one due out in ~2 weeks, we'll see if I can snag one. They apparently go pretty fast so I didn't prod further for a group buy.

@DRANGED - those are some mad mobile phone keyboard skills with your question above .

My input above is only in relation to the design of the drop horns off the frame to which the OEM recovery loops are attached. Whether the loops are butt-welded or lap-welded (technically the lap has more surface area to grab) isn't what jumps out at me - just the fact that all that tension (when being towed/winched out) is directly applied to the horn which naturally wants to rotate about the point where the horn attaches to the frame. That's why I like the Apex design - it attaches at both the horizontal frame as well as the vertical horn, creating a significantly stronger attachment for your recovery.

 

[HomersCanyonero]

All that mumble jumble material scientist talk has my head spinning.

Basically, reinforce the horns to make them stronger when you need to be recovered or pulled from the front.

Secondly, my engine skid plate also attaches to the bottom horn crossmember, so they provide another reinforcement to the horns. Although, the skid plate bolts look smaller than the apex bolts which I replaced with metric class 10.9 = grade 8 bolts.

 

[DRANGED]

@DRANGED i didn’t understand your question.

You need to switch to soft shackles and maybe they fit your recovery points.

Ha!! Yeah, in reviewing my post, it was responding to and correctly noted by @tlin as drafted with "mad mobile phone keyboard skills"

I thought soft shackles too when I first noted the TO didn't work with my loops, but then found more beta addressing that. As such, I do not think soft shackles are appropriate for the aftermarket loops, they have 90degree edged the soft shackles would be subjected to. I read somewhere that soft shackles are NOT intended to be used on these surfaces (the flat edges of an "off road recovery point"), but if chamfered probably okay..... I found this post, but not the one where I read it originally.

@MaverickFiveO decifered my question RE: strength of the factory loops. I was asking Tlin if his point applied to surface welded pre 06, or lap-welded post 06. I don't know the physics of moments but i think i understand a moment as force or an instant torque force at a point when torque is created b/c of the down-bend on the forward aspect of the loop, creating a fulcrum which exerts forces differently than the straight plates of the aftermarket loops. I certainly see how the Apex ones add reinforcement from different front forces and reinforced pivots created by torque and a fulcrum. I wonder about the 2-bolt aftermarket designs and sheer forces on those 2 bolts, vs. the strength of the boxed steel with lap-welded (welded through both front and rear faces of the box) of the post 06 design vs the distributed sheer and reinforced pivot/leverage support of Apex...
I hope this makes sense and isn't stream of consciousness.

This is the discussion I was hoping would come out RE: aftermarket "recovery loops"!!

 

[HomersCanyonero]

I read somewhere that good welds are stronger than bolts.

The question from me is should I use the 2003 tie down loops or use the apex recovery points? I have both metal d shackles and soft shackles.

 

[DRANGED]

I read somewhere that good welds are stronger than bolts.

The question from me is should I use the 2003 tie down loops or use the apex recovery points? I have both metal d shackles and soft shackles.

yes. bridle to equalize
soft on stock, metal on apex. 4 points, double bridle?

 

[GXO]

I have never used these recovery points in almost 10 years of wheeling. Just don't get stuck or use your winch

 

[CarolinaGX]

Vlad: That's part of my problem, I dont have a winch yet.

 

[GXO]

I get it.

Props to the product for being there, I do think they add strength and safety to front recovery (if you can't self recover). I have a winch, but I have also only used the winch a handful of times. I think knowing the limits of your truck and driving ability will do a lot more, but being prepared is a good thing too. No question these points are going to be stronger than the stock loops. The stock loops have 4 beads of surface welds vs. a recovery point with more fasteners in better structural areas. No matter what, the proper rigging and recovery technique will make either system "stronger" for that particular recovery vs. trying to overthink or over engineer something. Being beefy doesn't mean you can use it incorrectly.