Front Differential Explosion

[Campfire]

I'm picking up a set of 2002 rims tomorrow, so I'll have M/T's mounted on one set and Revo's on the other. I've already done some hill climbing in dirt and mud, LOTS of snow, but no granite. This should test the 4 pinion enough, and if it fails I'll have a good differential to start with for the ARB.

 

[spressomon]

I'm picking up a set of 2002 rims tomorrow, so I'll have M/T's mounted on one set and Revo's on the other. I've already done some hill climbing in dirt and mud, LOTS of snow, but no granite. This should test the 4 pinion enough, and if it fails I'll have a good differential to start with for the ARB.

Your '98 is a 2 pinion design unless you changed it?

 

[Snook]

Thanks Andy - Cruiserdrew , David - Yep , Alvaro - Alvarorb, Jim - FJ40_Owner, Ken - 450 DUDE and Eduardo - Eduardo96FZJ80 for turn off the ceiling fan at Slick Rock Trail. Thier quickwork enabled me to go home on time for my wedding aniversary, the next day 150 miles away or otherwise I am dead.

Cheers,

BTW, Sodium chloride (NaCl) is perfectly useable for the fine food, nothing else such as "open wounds".

 

[Campfire]

Your '98 is a 2 pinion design unless you changed it?

I guess I should be thankful that you've forgotten that I'm the Bozo that started this thread by "blowing holes" in my front case. $899 later I now have a 4 pinion in the front. Dad always taught me "son, if your going to do something, go all the way". I guess I don't always listen, there's no ARB in the front yet.

 

[i4c4lo]

I don't think it is a problem - 2 pinion - 4 pinion ...

Its really all up to the driver. It can and might happen but if you are careful, you can avoid it. There have been a lot of 2 pinion that hasn't broken, there have been what what like 4 broken front diff on this list out of how many ... so no I don't think its a problem but that is just me ...

Amando

 

[spressomon]

I guess I should be thankful that you've forgotten that I'm the Bozo that started this thread by "blowing holes" in my front case. $899 later I now have a 4 pinion in the front. Dad always taught me "son, if your going to do something, go all the way". I guess I don't always listen, there's no ARB in the front yet.

Oh now I remember

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

I don't think it is a problem - 2 pinion - 4 pinion ...

Its really all up to the driver. It can and might happen but if you are careful, you can avoid it. There have been a lot of 2 pinion that hasn't broken, there have been what what like 4 broken front diff on this list out of how many ... so no I don't think its a problem but that is just me ...

Amando

Noted....however, what freaks the 2-pinion owners out are the stories about when and how they burst. They're doing nothing severe and they pop. That's bad. I personally would not trust a "trail" vehicle with such a weakness.

 

[KathmanduCruiser]

.............. Bringing this thread back to life..............

Once the pop was heard, probably should not have tried further rocking, right? What is it that was done here before the pop that is a no-no.

In Minnesota, it is not unusual to find myself in a similar situation mention here. Having no knowledge of the limitations of the diff, what should I try or not try here.

I am asking the question because I would like to know what to avoid doing in the situation mentioned here? was it the rocking that was the no-no? Or the rocking in 4L? Or something else?

OK guys, here was the scenerio. Drove in 140' (tow truck driver had 150' of cable) 4H, unlocked. Sank and came to a stop, then reversed and tried to back out only to move about two feet. Hit the center lock, and moved forward again another two feet. Got a run in reverse and only made it back to the new burm.
Shifted to 4L, and switched the rear locker on, and rocked it back and forth only to drop down to the ice. Somewhere in here is where the first "pop" was heard somewhere around 3000 RPM. My two kids were out spotting me (16 & 19) and stated that both fronts were turning. I rocked it again and that's when all hell broke lose inside the carrier.

 

[Campfire]

.............. Bringing this thread back to life..............

Once the pop was heard, probably should not have tried further rocking, right? What is it that was done here before the pop that is a no-no.

In Minnesota, it is not unusual to find myself in a similar situation mention here. Having no knowledge of the limitations of the diff, what should I try or not try here.

I am asking the question because I would like to know what to avoid doing in the situation mentioned here? was it the rocking that was the no-no? Or the rocking in 4L? Or something else?

Well, a little over a year later and I can say that the four pinion has held up in pretty much the same conditions that the 2 pinion let loose in.
I was rocking in 4lo on a small bridge that had 1/4 -1/2 of an inch of ice on it with 4" of snow on top of that. I had just rocked into REVERSE and had the RPM's up when I heard the first "pop". I had dug ruts and the tires were on the ice with approx 6" burms now built up in front of the tread. And that was with Michelin LTX-AT's over have worn down and no chains. After a year of driving this rig, I'm sure that if I had chains and simply laid them down and ran up on them, I would not have blown the diff. But probably blown it later when in loose rocks wheeling whith Spressomon on the Carson River. Anyway........
After hearing the first pop, I just kept going trying to get my butt out of there until mulitple pops made me call a tow truck.

"what should I try or not try here. "
Carry chains and have good snow tires, and in Minnesota, can't you run studs?
And this really only applies to 98's and 99's since in 2000 Toyota went to the TRACS system and the 4 pinion.

 

[spressomon]

Well, a little over a year later and I can say that the four pinion has held up in pretty much the same conditions that the 2 pinion let loose in.
I was rocking in 4lo on a small bridge that had 1/4 -1/2 of an inch of ice on it with 4" of snow on top of that. I had just rocked into REVERSE and had the RPM's up when I heard the first "pop". I had dug ruts and the tires were on the ice with approx 6" burms now built up in front of the tread. And that was with Michelin LTX-AT's over have worn down and no chains. After a year of driving this rig, I'm sure that if I had chains and simply laid them down and ran up on them, I would not have blown the diff. But probably blown it later when in loose rocks wheeling whith Spressomon on the Carson River. Anyway........
After hearing the first pop, I just kept going trying to get my butt out of there until mulitple pops made me call a tow truck.

"what should I try or not try here. "
Carry chains and have good snow tires, and in Minnesota, can't you run studs?
And this really only applies to 98's and 99's since in 2000 Toyota went to the TRACS system and the 4 pinion.

FYI: There has been a rash (7 this winter season alone in the Denver area) of '00+ front diff issues also...stripping the ring gear teeth from "shock loading" (per Christo) via TRAC when in snow/on ice. So far the folks that have added ARB front lockers have not posed this same issue...although to be fair there are only a handful of us that have installed the front ARB locker onto a 100 series.

 

[SWUtah]

FYI: There has been a rash (7 this winter season alone in the Denver area) of '00+ front diff issues also...stripping the ring gear teeth from "shock loading" (per Christo) via TRAC when in snow/on ice. So far the folks that have added ARB front lockers have not posed this same issue...although to be fair there are only a handful of us that have installed the front ARB locker onto a 100 series.

Don't you think people can break anything if they try hard enough?

 

[spressomon]

Don't you think people can break anything if they try hard enough?

Of course...however I think the 100 front diff is a weak design and not up to the task of the rest of the vehicle.

 

[Campfire]

Don't you think people can break anything if they try hard enough?

I know I can. But the difference is I fix what I break.

And so far, I have not broken what I have fixed. I think I'll walk to work this weekend now.

 

[KathmanduCruiser]

Well, a little over a year later and I can say that the four pinion has held up in pretty much the same conditions that the 2 pinion let loose in.
I was rocking in 4lo on a small bridge that had 1/4 -1/2 of an inch of ice on it with 4" of snow on top of that. I had just rocked into REVERSE and had the RPM's up when I heard the first "pop". I had dug ruts and the tires were on the ice with approx 6" burms now built up in front of the tread. And that was with Michelin LTX-AT's over have worn down and no chains. After a year of driving this rig, I'm sure that if I had chains and simply laid them down and ran up on them, I would not have blown the diff. But probably blown it later when in loose rocks wheeling whith Spressomon on the Carson River. Anyway........
After hearing the first pop, I just kept going trying to get my butt out of there until mulitple pops made me call a tow truck.

"what should I try or not try here. "
Carry chains and have good snow tires, and in Minnesota, can't you run studs?
And this really only applies to 98's and 99's since in 2000 Toyota went to the TRACS system and the 4 pinion.

I am pretty sure that studs are illegal on the road here. I have never seen anyone in Minnesota use tire chains either. The first time I found out people did something like this is when a friend who had moved to Reno told me about it. Go figure.... The reason must be that it is so freakin' flat here. Coming from Kathmandu, I was shocked to find myself looking in all directions and not seeing even a slight elevation anywhere, leave alone a hill or a mountain.... I do know for sure that in Duluth, you have to use tire chains. If not, there are some looooooooooooooooong slopes where you WILL slip and once you start slipping, there is no stopping until you hit Lake Superior.

I apprecaite the reply on it. Makes me feel better about the front diffs.

 

[Mark SR.]

Waiting For A Failure???

The internet is an amazing tool for auto/truck enthusiasts, and I have benefited much more from this IH8MUD forum than I have contributed. But sometimes I worry that I have access to too much info. Some of these threads get me thinking (worrying) about what is going to break next.

I buy a used 4Runner while in college in '92 (when young and dumb). To make a long story short, for the last 2 years it has been permanently hooked to a 2k lb. trailer as my work truck while my 100 sits in the garage getting priority on the pm and other attention. The 4Runner continues to get 10W30 oil & oem filter every 5k miles and oem parts for whatever breaks (which is farly rare still at 220k miles).

Although the 100 is a complex vehicle that when new cost 2 1/2 times that of my 4Runner when new, I have to think it will be at least as reliable when it comes to the major components.

Quite a few on this forum use their 100s in very extreme (though mostly recreational) use. Their time and effort taking their trucks to the limits benefits and entertains guys like me greatly, as thankfully they have the time to document their experiences on forums such as these. Even the most hardcore enthusiast can learn something from fellow enthusiasts if he lets himself.

I do have a hard time accepting that I should spend the $$$ on a new 4 pinion diff or upgrade to a TRAC equipped rig when, chances are, my 2 pinion diff. will last 300k+ miles with careful driving when both on and off road. When my starter first started giving the symptoms It did not truly fail me for another month, more than enough time to have gotten it fixed.

Every vehicle will eventually break something major when pushed beyond its limits. The Land Cruiser's limits have historically exceeded those of most other vehicles.

For each late model cruiser that leaves someone stranded somewhere, how many are out there that never will?

-Mark

 

[SWUtah]

The internet is an amazing tool for auto/truck enthusiasts, and I have benefited much more from this IH8MUD forum than I have contributed. But sometimes I worry that I have access to too much info. Some of these threads get me thinking (worrying) about what is going to break next.

I buy a used 4Runner while in college in '92 (when young and dumb). To make a long story short, for the last 2 years it has been permanently hooked to a 2k lb. trailer as my work truck while my 100 sits in the garage getting priority on the pm and other attention. The 4Runner continues to get 10W30 oil & oem filter every 5k miles and oem parts for whatever breaks (which is farly rare still at 220k miles).

Although the 100 is a complex vehicle that when new cost 2 1/2 times that of my 4Runner when new, I have to think it will be at least as reliable when it comes to the major components.

Quite a few on this forum use their 100s in very extreme (though mostly recreational) use. Their time and effort taking their trucks to the limits benefits and entertains guys like me greatly, as thankfully they have the time to document their experiences on forums such as these. Even the most hardcore enthusiast can learn something from fellow enthusiasts if he lets himself.

I do have a hard time accepting that I should spend the $$$ on a new 4 pinion diff or upgrade to a TRAC equipped rig when, chances are, my 2 pinion diff. will last 300k+ miles with careful driving when both on and off road. When my starter first started giving the symptoms It did not truly fail me for another month, more than enough time to have gotten it fixed.

Every vehicle will eventually break something major when pushed beyond its limits. The Land Cruiser's limits have historically exceeded those of most other vehicles.

For each late model cruiser that leaves someone stranded somewhere, how many are out there that never will?

-Mark

I think you are right. I also think that it is interesting that the 4runner gets dino and is maintained by the book and is used hard with 200K+ miles and it just keeping on going. I think a lot of us use synthetics and extreme maintaince because we are into our LC/LX's. I also think they would all last for 100'sK's of miles with dino oil and lubes and OEM filters and used Toyota's recomended change intervals they will last just as long. I think the synthetic are needed for the extremes that most vehicles don't see. Death Valley or Alaska, or rock crawling. JMHO

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

Don't you think people can break anything if they try hard enough?

The people aren't trying though.

 

[SWUtah]

The people aren't trying though.

So are you saying that the 4 pinion will break in "normal" off roading? I'm not talkin about rock crawling. I'm talkin about off roading that would not cause any body damage with a normal driver. It's real hard to discribe "normal". I've read about a few diff's blowing up but based on useage by the MUD owner it doesn't seem like a weak link. If it was I would think more would be going with the recommended ARB?

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

So are you saying that the 4 pinion will break in "normal" off roading? I'm not talkin about rock crawling. I'm talkin about off roading that would not cause any body damage with a normal driver. It's real hard to discribe "normal". I've read about a few diff's blowing up but based on useage by the MUD owner it doesn't seem like a weak link. If it was I would think more would be going with the recommended ARB?

Nope. Talking about 98-99 only. (Though I destroyed a 4-pinion)

 

[KathmanduCruiser]

The internet is an amazing tool for auto/truck enthusiasts, and I have benefited much more from this IH8MUD forum than I have contributed. But sometimes I worry that I have access to too much info. Some of these threads get me thinking (worrying) about what is going to break next.

I buy a used 4Runner while in college in '92 (when young and dumb). To make a long story short, for the last 2 years it has been permanently hooked to a 2k lb. trailer as my work truck while my 100 sits in the garage getting priority on the pm and other attention. The 4Runner continues to get 10W30 oil & oem filter every 5k miles and oem parts for whatever breaks (which is farly rare still at 220k miles).

Although the 100 is a complex vehicle that when new cost 2 1/2 times that of my 4Runner when new, I have to think it will be at least as reliable when it comes to the major components.

Quite a few on this forum use their 100s in very extreme (though mostly recreational) use. Their time and effort taking their trucks to the limits benefits and entertains guys like me greatly, as thankfully they have the time to document their experiences on forums such as these. Even the most hardcore enthusiast can learn something from fellow enthusiasts if he lets himself.

I do have a hard time accepting that I should spend the $$$ on a new 4 pinion diff or upgrade to a TRAC equipped rig when, chances are, my 2 pinion diff. will last 300k+ miles with careful driving when both on and off road. When my starter first started giving the symptoms It did not truly fail me for another month, more than enough time to have gotten it fixed.

Every vehicle will eventually break something major when pushed beyond its limits. The Land Cruiser's limits have historically exceeded those of most other vehicles.

For each late model cruiser that leaves someone stranded somewhere, how many are out there that never will?

-Mark

Hi Mark, Nice post.

You are right in that there is so much information available to an average person that just was not there before. And that, had it been a few years ago, I would not even have known even the differences between the different model years. I would not have any knowledge of the front diff failure in snow/ice in this case.

What concerned me was not that the user who put it to the extreme were breaking the diffs, but the normal users.

My summary has been that it is probably not something I will have to worry about. These failed diffs are not the norm, but the exception, even though Toyo could have manufactured these better.