Fox 2.5 / 2.0 Remote Reservoir Coil Over w DSC on '10 LC

[alta]

AccuTune Off Road made me a set of Fox 2.5 remote reservoir coil over in the front and 2.0 remote in rear, both w the DSC adjusters. Does anyone else run either of these shocks? I am interested to hear if anyone has found the perfect settings.

In general, I think these are a huge improvement over stock springs and shocks. I had Icon non-adjustable shocks on my '17 4Runner, which were a great improvement on the highway and off road, however I really didn't like the digressive valving around town (broken pavement at speeds lower than 30mph). Slow speed performance was very jarring.

When it was time to select suspension for my '10 LC, I called a number of off road shops to explain what I liked and disliked about the icons and solicited different opinions. AccuTune Off Road seemed the most knowledgable (the engineer I spoke to used to work for Icon and also knew a lot about King, which they also carry). He suggested I have them custom tune a set of adjustable Fox shocks. Since Fox does not make a long-travel rear for the LC, he took one of the stops out of the 2.0 rear, so it would correctly work with my Icon rear springs (1.75" lift).

Currently my settings are:
Front low-speed : 1 (small wheel)
Front high-speed : 3 (large wheel)
Rear: 4

Other mods:
275/70r18 KO2 (33.2")
Total Chaos UCAs
MetalTech rear link arms
Icon rear spings
Fuel Wheels (+20mm offset vs +60 = 3" wider track)

The combo is great for slow to medium speeds. It is much more compliant that the Icon setup on my 4runner and much better than stock LC. Body roll and nose diving on breaking is all but eliminated. However, speeds higher than 75-80mph and it starts to lose some of its composure. It's not horrible, but I don't feel comfortable running much past 80mph. I feel like the Icons were a bit better at speeds up to 85mph, but that was also a different vehicle.

I have played with the shock settings some. At first I had the low-speed setting way to high (4), which resulted in a strange pogo effect at highway speeds. A rear setting lower than 4 tends to allow too much body roll at all speeds, as does a front high-speed setting < 3. Rear settings > 5 tend to make it skip (or pogo) over bumps at highway speeds (especially in corners).

I know the LC is a huge vehicle and am asking a lot of the suspension, but regardless of limitations, I'd like it to work as well as it possibly can.

For those of you with the OME BP-51s, what speeds are you comfortable running on the highway?

 

[A10Driver]

With BP-51s no issues going fast so far. Much more stable at speed than stock

 

[Reckless]

However, speeds higher than 75-80mph and it starts to lose some of its composure. It's not horrible, but I don't feel comfortable running much past 80mph. I feel like the Icons were a bit better at speeds up to 85mph, but that was also a different vehicle.

This is my fear of going with anything but Icons. I like driving 85+mph in my LC and regularly go over 100 mph driving rally racing style. I do think Kings may be custom valved to be better but would run me twice the price. I also called Accutune and spoke with the guy and he sounded very knowledgable but somehow I didn't think custom Fox tune would be superior to the Icons without a lot of money and effort.

 

[alta]

Wanted to give an update...

I have discussed my issues with Accutune several times now and things are much better. The primary issue is that the shocks are very adjustable (Dual Speed Compression - DSC) and apparently I didn't have them set correctly. Admittedly, this is subjective and my confusion was compounded because different people at Accutune suggested I dial the shocks differently. Also, the information on the web is, in many cases, wrong (people confuse shaft speed with vehicle speed).

Fox has a separate knob for "slow" and a knob for "fast" shaft speed (not vehicle speed). The slow (smaller) knob controls body roll and wallowing or surfing motion. The "fast" (larger) knob takes care of faster, unexpected movement like washboard roads, pavement cracks and potholes. I was originally told to start with both full open (set to zero). This was very soft and didn't seem to control the body roll much at all. Arguably, this may have still been better than stock, but not what I was after. After several more conversations, it was suggested I turn the "slow" knob up to 8 or 9 (9 is max) and keep the "fast" knob much more open (2-4). This was a huge improvement.

I just returned from a 1k mi trip to NM. I was able to cruise at ~90 fully loaded (4 people, 110lb dog and ~200lb on the roof in a 20cf box). I was fairly impressed with the front shock performance. The rear was still underwhelming. The settings I used were slow=9 (all the way closed) and fast=2 or 3. The rear is still an issue because the 2.0 only has a single dial. Set at 2, the slow speed is too soft, but at 3+ the rear rides like a stiff unloaded pickup (fast set too high). After speaking to Accutune, they suggested I return the rear for revalving (no charge). However, at this point, I think I may just have them send me a 2.5 for the rear, so I have the same adjustability. I would love to not spend more money, but I am in this far, and I want to make it the best it can be. I also love the ability to dial up slightly for longer trips with heavy loads.

So far I am much happier with my setup. Body roll is gone almost entirely, but the vehicle rides more compliantly over pavement cracks and potholes than my Icon setup did on the gen5 4Runner. My wife described it as a cross between the 4Runner and our '09 Suburban we had several years ago. I still don'f feel like I could cruise at 100+ mph, but passing at 95 mph is no longer a concern.

 

[Union]

Well first off, i'm stoked you wrote this up about your experience, so thank you. I may be going the Fox route as well but I'd be grabbing 2.5'' with remote and DSC. I wonder how the shock oil performs in colder temps, i.e. less than 32?

 

[Reckless]

Thanks for posting this. I am not 100% satisfied with my Icon setup but not finding any better solution for speeds 80-120mph which is what I mostly drive at on the highway.

 

[alta]

... not finding any better solution for speeds 80-120mph which is what I mostly drive at on the highway.

Damn, I love the idea of 100+ Hearing you can run at 120mph makes my 90mph feel inadequate. And to think, my '85 FJ60 could barely hit 70mph downhill.

I wonder if there is an interest in a shock length that provides greater than 2.5'' of lift in the front and 1.5'' in the rear from Fox. I have family in the engineering department there and we talked about potentially designing one.

To your point, I don't intend to use Fox's LC-specific 2.5 shock for the rear. Currently, I am using the Icon progressive rear springs, which are advertised as 1.75". To avoid regularly pushing the shock to it's limits (where it would get very harsh), Accutune spec'd a 2.0 front shock for a 14+ Dodge 2500 w 4-5" lift. They then tuned it for the LC's weight and removed the lower sleeve. This shock has 2.5" longer travel over OEM. They did recommend a 3/4" bump stop spacer.

As far as a 2.5 shock for the Icon springs, I am waiting for a call from them today, but was told they would use the same measurements to find a better candidate (longer stroke length) for the rear 2.5 DSC.

I would love to hear what your family member thinks of Accutune's recommendation.

 

[Reckless]

I called accutune before ordering my Icons. I liked the guy in the videos. He comes off as extra passionate about what he does. I am the same way - All Heart! I almost bought my setup from him but expense and having to fiddle to find perfection became my barriers. Suspensions are way beyond my brain capacity and I didnt want to learn because I will never get it right.

My only regret is not going with 3.0 icons but then I would need aftermarket springs which would lose comfort.

 

[TeCKis300]

Adjust-ability is a double edged sword. For the price and tier of a suspension system like the Fox setup you have, I would expect, actually demand that there be a good baseline tune.

I've been in this game for awhile and have had my share of high end coilover suspensions. Albiet on sports cars. A suspension system is not just about its parts and potential. It's about its development and integration. Tuning takes expertise, time, and iteration to develop. For any setup, it IS the secret sauce that separates a great suspension apart from a bad suspension.

 

[alta]

I heard back from Accutune and they suggested I use a 07+ Tundra rear 2.5 DSC. At this point, I believe my fatal flaw is exactly what @TeCKis300 is saying about iteration and time. I thought that by going to the best and upgrading to adjustable shocks, I would have the flexibility to get to where I wanted to be. However, it is pretty clear now that they haven't done this many times for our 200 series (if ever). I don't necessarily mind being the guinea pig if the results are great. With iteration and time, we would probably get there, but the distance makes this very difficult and doesn't provide the ability for a base-line tune or easy tweaks.

At this point, I am not sure which direction to go. I could send them the current 2.0 to have revalved (free + shipping), pay retail for the Tundra 2.5 (I am a bit surprised they wouldn't give me any break on price). Find a local shop to revalve the 2.0 (potentially expensive). Scrap the Fox and buy front and rear Icons 2.5s.

 

[TeCKis300]

Disappointing to hear they can't provide the proper support to get the tune in the right ballpark.

Not all is lost though. I would suggest as a starting point, to set every dial and adjuster to the middle position. If they've done any development at all and the engineer knows what he's doing with the rear, this would be a good place to start.

I would then focus on how the suspension reacts to different surfaces and conditions. It's not about body roll and brake dive. Damping, while it has some impact on body roll, is not the primary control of that. You've lifted your vehicle, and now it has a higher center of gravity, along with worse geometry in regards to roll center and resistance to body roll. Primarily, the roll bars and spring rates dictate that. I expect that any lifting spring had high spring rates to compensate. Let the body roll and brake dive be what it is, and focus on wheel and body control over terrain and road surfaces.

 

[alta]

Thanks for this ^^

When I first put the new shocks on, I set all knobs front and rear to "5". This was mostly based on a conversation with MetalTech who said the Icon non-adjustable shocks were at about a "4" in the range of their adjustable shocks. On my Fox 2.5, the fast knob on "5" proved way too high, seen by tires skipping (pogo effect at highway speed, similar to a washboard road, but on pavement). When I called Accutune they told me to turn all knobs to "1" and go from there. The suspension set to "1" was super soft, but was accompanied by an unacceptable amount of wallow and sway. In the mountains, the sway was so bad I felt unsafe on wet roads and slowed way down.

I understand that I lifted my truck, but I lifted a prior 4Runner an inch (33% higher than my LC) and the Icon stage 3 made it feel "planted". After playing with various settings for several weeks and reading other forums (who use Fox more often: 4runner, tacoma), I called Accutune again. This time I described my complaints: lack of composure at high speeds, swaying and skipping across rough spots of concrete. That is when they suggested I pump the low-speed compression knob WAY up and keep the fast relatively low. That setting combo in the front is pretty good. This may be my particular driving style, but can't imagine wanting to drive it any other way (within a click or two, up or down). Therefor, I am a bit surprised that the two knob are so spread out. And like your suggestion about starting the settings in the middle, I would have expected that all 5s would have been "close to good" as opposed to feeling uncontrolled and almost dangerous.

You also have a very good point about spring rates and that is what is worrying me about my Fox/Icon LC/Tundra/Ram combo. I believe Accutune when they tell me that they believe the Fox shocks are better quality than both Icon and King. They sell all 3, so don't have an obvious agenda. However, Icon (shocks + springs) has presumably engineered their system (both shocks and springs) specifically for the LC200. Unfortunately, I don't understand enough about the subject to tell with any certainty if the Fox 2.5 front and rear will perform well with my Icon rear springs.

I am trying to get ahold of Tim at 303 Shock Services (recommended by my local shop). I missed his return call yesterday, but am hoping to get his informed opinion... At this point, I would rather deal with someone local, so as you suggested, I can fine tune the system.

 

[TeCKis300]

Ah, sorry if I presumed some details. Looks like you're already spent some time trying various settings.

I'm only now fully understanding the story of the degree of mix and match going on. I missed that the springs were not specifically developed for this setup. It's going to be a rough road...

To me, it does sound like there's some fundamental mismatch going on. A shock is tuned to the spring it is to work with, in so much as it is tailored to the vehicle, and tuned to the suspension tuning on the other axle of vehicle. There's fundamental considerations such as suspension frequency and roll couple at and between the two axles. Get it wrong, and there will be strange harmonics.

Which is what I believe you're experiencing as you describe the pogo-ing effect. A developed setup should ride generally well without bad habits even at the extremes of the adjustments. That's what the manufacturing setup should be doing with valving. It should valve everything in the optimal ballpark, with knobs allowing some bandwidth of further adjustment.

I don't think this is just a damping problem. There's something going on with the spring rates. Can you describe what the spring setup is all around? Is it possible to run Icon springs on both ends?

 

[hedd]

A few thoughts based on my experience with high end fox bicycle shocks and a lot of motorcycle forks/shocks... I just went with a tough dog suspension but considered fox - not realizing that they have high and low speed compression adjusters...they are superior. I would call fox directly for another opinion...in my experience they are very helpful.

Low speed = slow movements of the shock. Smaller bumps in the road

High speed = harder hits, sharp edges that make the shock quickly react to an impact.

Low and high speed circuits may be independent or tired together based on the shock meaning that if you change the low speed it will also change the high speed (even if the dials are separate). You could ask them this.

Rebound? Is this an independent control on the shock? This is key to how fast the shock can cycle between a compression hit and controlling the spring. The spring always wants to open the shock travel, a shock can control the spring.

For instance, motorcycle example...you hit a big jump, you don’t want the shock to pogo you when you land, you want it to absorb the impact and control the recoil. That said, sometimes you want to be able to compress the shock and use the springs energy to lift...if you can control the rebound of the shock/spring then you can maximize its use.

I see that rebound is not controllable with the 2.5 so I think @TeCKis300 is right, Fox should have set the rebound circuit to match the spring for a certain condition.

Something that I am chasing on my LC... A heavily loaded truck seems to make the front end move more than I like (nose up LC). I just swapped the suspension and am playing with it but the squatting rear end changes the way the front reacts. There is nothing wrong with my shocks. I will play with the compression on the rear (front doesn’t help) and may need airbags (springs would work but 80% of the time I’m not this loaded).

Why am I telling you this? It seems to me that the front and rear are tied closely on the LC and loading changes the dynamic. I am trying to understand it. Also, suspension adjustments take time to get it dialed in and are dependant on what you are doing. Write down settings and how you felt it worked based on conditions! This can really help. The stock Toyota suspension did well under a LOT of conditions, you have moved from that to a suspension that can work extremely well but isn’t set for all conditions.

Keep talking to the experts - accutune and Fox, they will help you.

Good luck

 

[alta]

I don't think this is just a damping problem. There's something going on with the spring rates. Can you describe what the spring setup is all around? Is it possible to run Icon springs on both ends?

My front springs are the Fox springs that came with the 2.5 coil overs. They are LC200 specific. The rear springs are Icon progressive 1.75". Others on this forum have described those springs as very compliant and sometimes too soft (with roof loads), leading to sway. This would explain the behavior when the shocks are low, but I wouldn't think they would contribute to the harsher, pogo effect I am feeling in the rear, which setting the shock to 4 or above.

I spoke to Tim at 303 Shock Services, who (I am told) is the local revalving guru in the Denver area. He thought it strange that I could feel such a change between settings. His opinion was like yours; there should be a range of settings that are "pretty good". He didn't have much advice but to say that he was certainly willing to revalve what i had, but like Accutune, said I might be happier with the adjustabliity of the 2.5s. He went on to say that any shock (with iteration) can be made to work well and gave the example of a Fox/Icon combo he is running on his GX. The dual-adjustability of the Fox is a nice alternative to iteration and also for making small adjustments as weight or speeds change as on out-of-town trips.

Rebound? Is this an independent control on the shock? This is key to how fast the shock can cycle between a compression hit and controlling the spring. The spring always wants to open the shock travel, a shock can control the spring.

I see that rebound is not controllable with the 2.5 so I think @TeCKis300 is right, Fox should have set the rebound circuit to match the spring for a certain condition.

That is a good point. Perhaps the shocks are not correctly set for that spring rate. The Icon is a progressive coil. It starts out soft and then gets stiffer before bottoming out. I think the vehicle rides better (smoother and less pogo) when it has some weight (110lb Great Dane puppy) or platform 4-bike rack. If I can feel a difference when fairly small amounts of weight are added or subtracted (which I am very sure I can), then this is an even greater argument for more adjustability. And speaks to your point, "The stock Toyota suspension did well under a LOT of conditions, you have moved from that to a suspension that can work extremely well but isn’t set for all conditions."

While I hate the idea of dropping more money on parts I already paid for (front bumper sounds like far more fun than a second set of rear shocks), it seems like the adjustability and overall better build quality of the 2.5 DSCV FOX (arguable, but what I keep hearing from independent shops) might we worth staying the course a bit longer and really trying to work out the kinks. I may still need to swap springs or have the 2.5s re valved (is our LC200 rear heavier than a Tundra rear?), but hopefully in the end I will end up with a very adjustable solution that works well in several conditions.

Thanks again to all who have chimed in and are helping me figure this out! Hopefully this thread will help others make the most informed decision they can for their specific needs.

 

[TeCKis300]

What does your load out look like in terms of mods that add weight? Or are you mostly at stock weight?

 

[alta]

Mostly stock. On trips I have ~200lb on the roof, 150lb in the rear (dog) and potentially 150lb on the hitch (4 mountain bikes on platform rack). When rear load is added, it seems to smooth out the pogo but increases the wallow, floaty feeling in the rear, which in some cases disrupts the front.

 

[TeCKis300]

So generally, sounds like you're running relatively light. From what you're describing it sounds to me like a case where you're oversprung at the front relative to the rear, directing a lot of the oscillation energy to the rear.

What are your suspension setting right now for all dials, front and rear?

At the rear, I'd back down that slow knob from max 9, to 8. Then take the fast knob up one (from 2 to 3?)

At the front, turn down high and low speed knobs 1 click.

 

[alta]

Currently, I only have a linear knob in the rear; the 2.0 doesn't have slow and fast, just a linear knob that moves both slow and fast (from what I am told). That is part of the reason I probably need to go to 2.5s in the rear (so I can get the front and backs to adjust in a similar way). Both Accutune and 303 Shocks said the 2.0 could be made to match, but it would likely take a few iterations... not because there is anything wrong with the shock, but because at that point it becomes subjective.

In answer to your question, I currently have them set:

Front: slow=9, fast = 2
rear = 3 (2 is soft and seems to disrupt the front, 4 is too harsh and increases pogo effect)

 

[alta]

Update:

After talking with several different companies, including Accutune, I am going to send back the rear 2.0s to be revalved. Accutune has been great answering my questions and are willing to revalve the 2.0 for free (I pay shipping). If that doesn't work out, I will look again at the 2.5, but they are hopeful that by reducing he high-speed compression, I will be close to what I want. They also repeatedly told me that I was much pickier than their average customer... prob true, but that's why I don't drive a 4Runner.