FJ80 vs FZJ80? (1 Viewer)

[SupraTuRD]

Wow brought back from the dead... that was from over 10 years ago. =]

 

[yosemitesamiam]

I've been lurking long enough, time to shop. Is the difference between rear axles that big of a deal? Drums and 15" wheels vs disc and full floating with 16"? This is something new to me I wasn't aware of.

Thanks!

...and sorry (not sorry) to bring back a 12 year old thread...

Sam

chucking in my 2 cents....

I have a 3FE and love it.

I would like to own a later model for the sake of the lockers..but have toyed with swapping in the later model axles because I love the 3FE and the old bus transmission.

I have been through this truck a LOT...ask CDan, he bought his slee stuff with what I ordered from him.

So, issues I know of:
- if your intake is dirty, old, cracked, or stiff rubber, you will have poor performance.
- if your belts are not OEM and properly tensioned you will have loud rides and poor performance.
- Fix the EFI relay with 10 gauge wire before it gets hot out. I still need to. Keep relays in the glovebox if you choose to wait.
- The center diff clunks a lot, keep tire pressures front and rear equal, grease your shafts (hehe) and your U-joints frequently and it minimizes it. If you leave 5 pounds difference front to rear in the tires, it will sound HORRIBLE.
- No lockers, so plan on putting an Aussie locker in the rear and an ARB up front or swapping in later model 80 axles with e-lockers (yummy).
- Oil plug in the side of the engine....fix it when you can, watch your oil until you fix it. HUGE issues if you miss it, no issues if it never happens
- Modify the exhaust to 2.5" and DO NOT screw with the intake. Stock is plenty, and you will get performance with just exhaust. Trust me, I have tried it all.

The cons are minor to me. Torque rocks at low speed, I get great performance at high speeds, take off, etc. I run 32s on stock gears. The later models are better on the road, but the return on investment is marginal given the higher prices. 3FEs are bulletproof.

If you plan on just buzzing around town and wheeling, get an FJ80.
If you plan on road tripping or commuting on the highway, get an FZJ80.

Dedicated wheeler? FJ80, hands down.

 

[LS1FJ40]

Other people will tell you that the full float rear end, disk brakes all around, and whopping 50 more horsepower are important. I will tell you it isn't. Then they will tell you they wheel the s*** out of their 80s way harder than I do and blah blah blah. I've wheeled my 80 throughout Mexico, Canada, and the U.S. I don't rock crawl it. I don't mud bog it. But I've wheeled it fairly hard. I've never NEEDED locked axles. Others will tell you that it is a necessity. That is up to you.

I only will own 91-92 FJ80s. Period. The motors, trannies, and lack of electrical are bombproof. The 93-97 are great rigs. I don't like the motor. I think it has inherent flaws to it. (HG, wiring harness, specifically). Others will say those things are blown out of proportion but if I'm buying a used rig that I have no idea about the quality of the previous ownership I sure would like to not have to worry about if the previous owner overheated it and blew the head gasket.

 

[yosemitesamiam]

That sounds about what I want and need then. I'm not a mudder. I'm not a crawler, well, maybe some light duty crawling. You don't know where you will end up on that trail every time...so sometimes its useful but not as a "OMG I have to crawl that" usefulness for me. I just want to know that if I want to drive out in the middle of no where to camp/fish with my kids, I won't have an issue getting there and back. Have a friend who takes his Land Rover....(Discovery LR2 I think?) out and I'd like to follow or be able to do the same. I'm not looking to tow heavy if at all...these will be tent trips probably. The '06 Suburban with 4.10s is a better option for that all day anyway.

I am looking to replace a 4 door quad cab Dodge Dakota 4x4 with the stinky 4.7 V8 engine. Lousy power, lousy mileage...heavy rig in its own right. What kind of MPG do you see day to day driving? And can you share where you have been or maybe photos in the roughest of places so I can compare to what's in my head? Would really appreciate that...even if its a waypoint on a google map.

Also, how many miles do you have on your rig now? Did you add a winch?

If I ever decide I need a locker or two...I'm sure Aussie or ARB would be more than happy to help out...no need to spend the money up front in my opinion...I'll let my adventures tell me what I need later on.

Thanks again!

Other people will tell you that the full float rear end, disk brakes all around, and whopping 50 more horsepower are important. I will tell you it isn't. Then they will tell you they wheel the s*** out of their 80s way harder than I do and blah blah blah. I've wheeled my 80 throughout Mexico, Canada, and the U.S. I don't rock crawl it. I don't mud bog it. But I've wheeled it fairly hard. I've never NEEDED locked axles. Others will tell you that it is a necessity. That is up to you.

I only will own 91-92 FJ80s. Period. The motors, trannies, and lack of electrical are bombproof. The 93-97 are great rigs. I don't like the motor. I think it has inherent flaws to it. (HG, wiring harness, specifically). Others will say those things are blown out of proportion but if I'm buying a used rig that I have no idea about the quality of the previous ownership I sure would like to not have to worry about if the previous owner overheated it and blew the head gasket.

 

[yosemitesamiam]

Also, how many miles is too many miles when looking to buy?

 

[baldilocks]

I've been lurking long enough, time to shop. Is the difference between rear axles that big of a deal? Drums and 15" wheels vs disc and full floating with 16"? This is something new to me I wasn't aware of.

Thanks!

...and sorry (not sorry) to bring back a 12 year old thread...

Sam

If there was no appreciable difference Toyota would not have spent the money on R&D and re-tooling for the FZJ. Don't think too hard about this. It seems so many members here are very worried about the s*** that can and eventually will go wrong with an old truck. If something worries me that much I don't allow it into my world. Shallow pockets and lack of mechanical aptitude are not favorable attributes of a guy who wants into this hobby.

 

[BILT4ME]

Also, how many miles is too many miles when looking to buy?

Depends on your budget. Higher miles = lower $$$. These can go 500K miles+ with the proper maintenance. I bought mine at 196K with a s***load of PM required because the PO didn't do it. I knew it, he knew it, I got it CHEAP. I've put almost $6K into it to make it my DD. I love driving it. I now have 228K in 3 years of ownership. I've had (1) major problem that shut it down for 6 months due to time available to rebuild. But when I did that, I did a BUNCH of other stuff at the same time because it was convenient and it needed it. (radiator exploded, then did F/R axles and all brakes and hoses and VC and PS)

Average mileage right now is in the 185K to 275K range. Depending on maintenance and records, that will determine its fate. Only buy OEM parts.

MPG = 12-16. Mostly 12. 16 is on a clear sunny day, under 65 MPH with a slight tail wind, 70°F.

 

[Robert Harper]

My Cruiser is for Offroad purposes. I love the 3FE. It's not a speed demon but the reliability is unsurpassed and the engine does well off-road. It's simply doesn't get "tired" or die. I prefer air lockers over the electric so I'm not bothered by the lack. The fact of the semi-floating rear end isn't an issue. Granted full-floating is theoretically stronger but doesn't really matter unless you go for huge tires. I do wish that I had the FZJ89 brakes. That's about all on my part.

 

[LS1FJ40]

I have 235k on my 3FE FJ80. I get about 12 mpg.

The 1FZ was a fine motor. And is a great motor if maintained. The guys that have 250k plus on their 1FZ motors have been anal retentive with maintenance. Even still the aluminum head expands at a different coefficient than the iron block. To me, it's a flawed design. Which may be why it existed in NA for only 4 years and they have redesigned the head gasket 2 (maybe more, someone else can chime in that knows better) times since it first came out.

The 3FE is indestructible. It is essentially the same motor design that Toyota had for 35 years with minor changes. I have run questionable gasoline (I hesitate to even call it that) in my 3FE without it skipping a beat. I've seen guys, in dire circumstances run paint thinner in it to get them to the next gas station (true story). Yes, it sounds like the offspring of a sewing machine and a John Deere but she runs.

As for going wherever the LR2 can go, well, the LR2 is a fine vehicle but it is nowhere near as capable as a stock 80 series. Period. He will have to worry about getting to where you are going.

My 3FE won't win any sprints but she'll win marathons. Life isn't about the destination, it's about the journey.

For the record, I have not always meticulously maintained my 3FE. I've kept it clean and rust free in the Midwest but I have not always changed the oil as recommended, I ran my last set of plugs at least 6-7 years. She hasn't been babied. She's been used and abused. And she gets driven every day. Wherever I want to go, she goes. Without hesitation.

 

[Robert Harper]

I have 235k on my 3FE FJ80. I get about 12 mpg.

The 1FZ was a fine motor. And is a great motor if maintained. The guys that have 250k plus on their 1FZ motors have been anal retentive with maintenance. Even still the aluminum head expands at a different coefficient than the iron block. To me, it's a flawed design. Which may be why it existed in NA for only 4 years and they have redesigned the head gasket 2 (maybe more, someone else can chime in that knows better) times since it first came out.

The 3FE is indestructible. It is essentially the same motor design that Toyota had for 35 years with minor changes. I have run questionable gasoline (I hesitate to even call it that) in my 3FE without it skipping a beat. I've seen guys, in dire circumstances run paint thinner in it to get them to the next gas station (true story). Yes, it sounds like the offspring of a sewing machine and a John Deere but she runs.

As for going wherever the LR2 can go, well, the LR2 is a fine vehicle but it is nowhere near as capable as a stock 80 series. Period. He will have to worry about getting to where you are going.

My 3FE won't win any sprints but she'll win marathons. Life isn't about the destination, it's about the journey.

For the record, I have not always meticulously maintained my 3FE. I've kept it clean and rust free in the Midwest but I have not always changed the oil as recommended, I ran my last set of plugs at least 6-7 years. She hasn't been babied. She's been used and abused. And she gets driven every day. Wherever I want to go, she goes. Without hesitation.

I second that. I feel the same way.

 

[yosemitesamiam]

You don't know me or anyone else's mechanical aptitude or wallet depth....that said, I post and ask in an attempt at starting with a pile of crap in the first place...no one wants to buy a vehicle unknowingly needing thousands of dollars worth of repair first thing....and no one wants to buy an inferior product if they can help it.

Your statement about Toyota not spending R&D money on appreciable differences....really? It's like saying, "That guy must be guilty because a cop arrested him." Name one manufacture that hasn't "updated" to a worse model inadvertently. Granted, Toyota is one of the best in the business at avoiding this, but they aren't immune by a stretch.

Again, I'm in for the long haul...just want to be sure what I buy fits the bill...and I'm a patient shopper. Have to be. There aren't many of these on the market and for good reason. I do appreciate your input though.

If there was no appreciable difference Toyota would not have spent the money on R&D and re-tooling for the FZJ. Don't think too hard about this. It seems so many members here are very worried about the s*** that can and eventually will go wrong with an old truck. If something worries me that much I don't allow it into my world. Shallow pockets and lack of mechanical aptitude are not favorable attributes of a guy who wants into this hobby.

 

[yosemitesamiam]

Thank you for this input. I assume lockers are an easy add for a shop? I like indestructible. I also like a bit more power. I'm sure there is a happy medium. That said, this will be my DD...in a town of hills and 20-35mph speed limits. The highways here are 60mph and 70 once out of the city limits. I'm hoping the 3FE is strong enough to deal with some armor and a roof rack with camping gear and at least a 33" tire...otherwise I may go the other extreme and find a 1FZ and try to Supercharge it one day....I really don't know at this point. I think limiting my options to the 1FZ rigs will take me another year on top to find a decent one...fewer and further between for sure.

Thanks again

Sam

I have 235k on my 3FE FJ80. I get about 12 mpg.

The 1FZ was a fine motor. And is a great motor if maintained. The guys that have 250k plus on their 1FZ motors have been anal retentive with maintenance. Even still the aluminum head expands at a different coefficient than the iron block. To me, it's a flawed design. Which may be why it existed in NA for only 4 years and they have redesigned the head gasket 2 (maybe more, someone else can chime in that knows better) times since it first came out.

The 3FE is indestructible. It is essentially the same motor design that Toyota had for 35 years with minor changes. I have run questionable gasoline (I hesitate to even call it that) in my 3FE without it skipping a beat. I've seen guys, in dire circumstances run paint thinner in it to get them to the next gas station (true story). Yes, it sounds like the offspring of a sewing machine and a John Deere but she runs.

As for going wherever the LR2 can go, well, the LR2 is a fine vehicle but it is nowhere near as capable as a stock 80 series. Period. He will have to worry about getting to where you are going.

My 3FE won't win any sprints but she'll win marathons. Life isn't about the destination, it's about the journey.

For the record, I have not always meticulously maintained my 3FE. I've kept it clean and rust free in the Midwest but I have not always changed the oil as recommended, I ran my last set of plugs at least 6-7 years. She hasn't been babied. She's been used and abused. And she gets driven every day. Wherever I want to go, she goes. Without hesitation.

 

[baldilocks]

You don't know me or anyone else's mechanical aptitude or wallet depth....that said, I post and ask in an attempt at starting with a pile of crap in the first place...no one wants to buy a vehicle unknowingly needing thousands of dollars worth of repair first thing....and no one wants to buy an inferior product if they can help it.

Your statement about Toyota not spending R&D money on appreciable differences....really? It's like saying, "That guy must be guilty because a cop arrested him." Name one manufacture that hasn't "updated" to a worse model inadvertently. Granted, Toyota is one of the best in the business at avoiding this, but they aren't immune by a stretch.

Again, I'm in for the long haul...just want to be sure what I buy fits the bill...and I'm a patient shopper. Have to be. There aren't many of these on the market and for good reason. I do appreciate your input though.

No ill will intended. Did you read snakeeater98's recent post where he surpassed 400k miles with his 97? He has never removed the head. It's not like the 1fz was the first of only a few engines that featured an aluminum head on an iron block. And it's not like the 1FZ is the only engine that had HG problems during that era. All manufacturers struggled especially when asbestos could no longer be used in gasket manufacturing. When I was shopping, I called Slee for advice. The only advice he would give is to buy the newest, lowest mileage 80 I could find/afford because both engines work hard due to being downshifted and run at high RPM in order to access what power it does have. 155hp or even 212hp in a truck that can weigh in at 6500 plus for a lot of us when loaded is just plane inadequate and bordering on unsafe. obviously the 3fe will struggle the most.

 

[yosemitesamiam]

Thanks for this! BTW...is there any way of bulletproofing this area of the engine? You know...like the 6.0 Ford Superduty guys figured out a way to update/upgrade those engines so they don't have headgasket issues, etc....anything for these?

I'm thinking the FZJ is the way to go...96 and 97 only...which will limit me obviously...though I can look for Lexus LX450s as well right? Looks like a trip to SoCal might be in order for looking. Locked or not I'm not that concerned with. Obviously with is a bonus...but seems guys are perfectly happy with ARB/Aussie units too if needed, and having installed in the aftermarket?

I'm trying to find one sub 200K miles...seems the best route to go...same time, I really do not want to plunk 12-18K on one either...would like to keep it under $8K if possibly, knowing full well it will need maintenance, upgrades, repairs, etc....and hell...maybe one day when funds are good and the rig is running right, I'll look for a factory S/C.

No ill will intended. Did you read snakeeater98's recent post where he surpassed 400k miles with his 97? He has never removed the head. It's not like the 1fz was the first of only a few engines that featured an aluminum head on an iron block. And it's not like the 1FZ is the only engine that had HG problems during that era. All manufacturers struggled especially when asbestos could no longer be used in gasket manufacturing. When I was shopping, I called Slee for advice. The only advice he would give is to buy the newest, lowest mileage 80 I could find/afford because both engines work hard due to being downshifted and run at high RPM in order to access what power it does have. 155hp or even 212hp in a truck that can weigh in at 6500 plus for a lot of us when loaded is just plane inadequate and bordering on unsafe. obviously the 3fe will struggle the most.

 

[LS1FJ40]

Factory superchargers are no longer available. You might be lucky enough to find one for sale used but new, no longer. And Toyota just announced they aren't making any more TRD Superchargers for any of their motors. So, it's likely never coming back. Just wanted you to be aware that it very well may not be a possibility down the road.

As for the HG issues. Snake eater, Cruiser Dan, and a few others (if I'm not mistaken) have run 300k+ miles on the original HG. I also know them to be some of the most anal retentive preventative maintenance guys and their rigs are meticulous. I would consider them to be, far and away, the exception to the rule. And if I'm not mistaken they have owned them since new or a few years old.

Not knowing the history of a rig with a known "issue" scares the crap out of me.

Some guys have gone cometic head gaskets with ARP studs. I can't speak much with these regards. I would search and see what experts have done.

Edited: Fat fingers on iPhone...

 

[120mm]

I'm sure you mean cometic, not cosmetic.

 

[l1coeea9]

[quote author=DanKunz link=board=2;threadid=14725;start=msg142075#msg142075 date=1082462421]
- Oil plug in the side of the engine....fix it when you can, watch your oil until you fix it. HUGE issues if you miss it, no issues if it never happens

can you elaborate on this -- or provide a link??

THANKS!

e[/QUOTE]
Link on this? This is the first I've heard of an issue with an oil plug and I've got 264k miles on mine.

 

[LS1FJ40]

I'm sure you mean cometic, not cosmetic.

Apparently the iPhone spell check engineer drives a 3FE and doesn't have to worry about failed Head Gasket issues...

 

[baldilocks]

Thanks for this! BTW...is there any way of bulletproofing this area of the engine? You know...like the 6.0 Ford Superduty guys figured out a way to update/upgrade those engines so they don't have headgasket issues, etc....anything for these?

I'm thinking the FZJ is the way to go...96 and 97 only...which will limit me obviously...though I can look for Lexus LX450s as well right? Looks like a trip to SoCal might be in order for looking. Locked or not I'm not that concerned with. Obviously with is a bonus...but seems guys are perfectly happy with ARB/Aussie units too if needed, and having installed in the aftermarket?

I'm trying to find one sub 200K miles...seems the best route to go...same time, I really do not want to plunk 12-18K on one either...would like to keep it under $8K if possibly, knowing full well it will need maintenance, upgrades, repairs, etc....and hell...maybe one day when funds are good and the rig is running right, I'll look for a factory S/C.

FYI California has the highest prices. My opinion is thAt ARB air lockers are superior to factory elockers. I have had both and the ARB's actuate instantly, there is no need to anticipate the need to lock up. Some guys will complain that ARB's are always having some issue like air leaks and such. I have dealt with air leaks but it's not a constant issue.
I just replaced my HG and am packing for the Rubicon as my thumbs type this out. I bought my rig 14 months ago with a professionally rebuilt engine. My HG let loose instantly back in March. I contacted the engine builder and he informed me that he used FelPro gaskets. Also worth saying is that my EGR valve had been deactivated since I bought it (I think)unbeknownst to me. One day the MEL came on and I found a disconnected vacuum line so I hooked it up. Next day I hit the highway and a couple miles later my 94 FZJ was vibrating and losing speed. Related to the EGR? Some believe so but I only have this one experience to draw from.
EGR gases flow through the head for cooling behind #6 cylinder and that's where mine blew. I am still on the fence about this one. My EGR system is still deactivated until I grow the balls to hook up a couple vacuum lines and see how it goes. Snakeeat98 who just passed 400k on original engine said that his EGR valve has been functional the entire time. Slee also told me they have changed HG at 40k and at 300k. Seems to be hit and miss.
I read a s***load here on MUD and decided to install an OEM HG using ARP head studs.

 

[sbman]

Thanks for this! BTW...is there any way of bulletproofing this area of the engine? You know...like the 6.0 Ford Superduty guys figured out a way to update/upgrade those engines so they don't have headgasket issues, etc....anything for these?

You can replace the head gasket with a Multi Layer Steel (Cometic) but the entire engine needs to come out to do that properly, both the head and the block must be machined to get the proper surface for that. That's an expensive option.

A new OEM Headgasket from Toyota is an improved design from original and can be replaced by pulling the head, it's a much cheaper job and some guys do this to avoid blowing the HG in the first place. Keeping your cooling system in good working condition also prevents issues, so good PM on hoses, thermostat, fan, radiator will keep the engine going for the long haul.