Electronic rust protection (1 Viewer)

[Freewheel]

Has anyone, or anyone you know, installed one of these electrolytic rust protection systems http://www.counteractrust.com/ ??? The science seems sound, but I'd like to see practical application. I can't believe these haven't been discussed before, but a search brought up nothing...

 

[Marc311]

I was wondering about this myself. I've never heard of that particular product, but was under the impression many/most new cars use some form of this to inhibit rust.

 

[Diesel Weasel]

"It cannot be overemphasized that CounterAct is a novel technology not a warmed over half-century old rustproofing technology nor a futile attempt to adapt traditional electronic rustproofing to an environment where even the novice corrosion scientist or engineer clearly understands it is inappropriate."

lol..

 

[MrMoMo]

I personally don't dig it. It might work well on a boat, immersed in salt water, but I just can't see it working on a steel framed vehicle where EVERYTHING is bonded to the frame. This is coming from the Marine world, where it is known as "impressed current".

I won't be putting one on any of my vehicles any time soon.

 

[Rig of Mortis]

Might work if you had put it on your 'Cruiser from day one...

Otherwise... snake oil.

 

[Spook50]

I've been toying around with installing one of these in both my Cruiser and my '74 Plymouth. Seems like a good idea, and even if it only works a little, it's good enough for me.

http://www.ruststoponline.com/index.html

 

[ssgoods]

hmmm...

I have actually heard good things about these systems, but never tried.

 

[tntoyota]

there is some type of system used in under ground fuel tanks, as told by an old friend that owned a convenient store "an electric current runs through it (the fuel tank) and when is senses rust it pops (like jolt or surge of electricity passes through it) it off"



My guess is its insulated by a positive charge and the rust starting to form acts like a ground and the juce shocks it off........heck I dont know...

 

[Spook50]

there is some type of system used in under ground fuel tanks, as told by an old friend that owned a convenient store "an electric current runs through it (the fuel tank) and when is senses rust it pops (like jolt or surge of electricity passes through it) it off"



My guess is its insulated by a positive charge and the rust starting to form acts like a ground and the juce shocks it off........heck I dont know...

Sounds more like a system for indicating corrosion. Kind of an important thing with big fuel tanks I would imagine...

 

[fowldarr]

I didn't read the link, but I would think that it wouldn't work so well, and even if it did, you would need one for the frame, and one for the body, the body mounts won't conduct and electrical current very well.

 

[Tode555]

I know that Montana power company uses simular technology for all the under ground gas lines. The diferacne is they have a direct line for the electisity to flow. Our cars dont have just one line for the current to flow. Also the under ground lines have constant power though them all the time. Does this system power up with key on or is it on all the time? I work at a dealer and I have never heard of this on any new cars.

 

[Freewheel]

Apparently the thing is on all the time at high voltage/low amperage. There are more than one connection pads so you could attach one to the frame and a couple to the body. (I had the same thought about the lack of electrical connection between the frame and body)

 

[MrMoMo]

OK folks, I'll give you a bit more low down.

Corrosion is caused by many things, and there are many different types of corrosion. If you want more info - it is out there. Corrosion is a VERY complex topic, and many people out there mis-understand it.

Atmospheric Corrosion is "the uniform, steady loss of surface metal" metals do this on their own, stainless steel corrodes, as well as aluminum - however they are not "rusting" and the corrosion they create actually helps protect them. Rust occours when Iron (FE) is exposed to moisture (H20) , creating Iron Oxide. (FE2O3)


Galvanic corrosion is caused by two dissimilar metals connected together, with an electrolyte (electrically conductive fluid) between them. (bolt a piece of aluminum to a piece of steel and put some salt water between them - that's galvanic corrosion. Each piece of metal has a different natural voltage so you are essentially making a small battery. Stick a piece of copper, and a piece of aluminum into a potato, or orange, or banana and measure the voltage between them with your volt meter (set to DC volts)

There are many different kinds of steel, so a steel bolt going through a steel part, can be two different types of metal. You can get galvanic corrosion here, when salt water is allowed in the area (salty winter roads) You can also get "Crevice corrosion" here, A small amount of oxygen-deficient salt water becomes trapped in the crevice (or behind that bolt head or washer) and this area becomes a local Anode, where the area surrounding it does not, thus you have two different voltages in the same metal, and you will get corrosion.

In a boat, it is essential to make sure all underwater metals are electrically connected so that they all equal out to the same voltage. This is known as "hull potential". In a fiberglass or wood boat, where there is a bronze prop, steel rudder, brass thru-hull etc these items will all naturally have different voltages when immersed in salt water. Due to the different natural voltages certain metals will become anodes, and others cathodes, allowing a flow of current between them. By electrically connecting them together they are all forced to take the "Average" potential, they all become equal, so no batteries are created. On an aluminum hulled boat, it is very important that the entire hull is within the natural range of the aluminum, or the aluminum will start to corrode. One way of doing this is to FORCE a voltage on the hull, called "Impressed current" - very similar to the device being talked about here for vehicles.

Now, BIG difference here is that most (we hope) of the time, your vehicle is not IMMERSED in salt water, and you don't have enough "submerged" dissimilar metal to create galvanic cells. Hence I have a very hard time believing that a vehicle could benifit from an impressed current system.

Now, the other big difference between a vehicle and a boat, is vehicles generally use the frame as a power return path to the battery. This is a pretty big no-no in boats, although the hull and all the metals are connected to each other, and the battery negative post, they are not used for a return path, and therefore do not have current flowing through them. Your vehicle does.

So, if you want to get the full benefit of one of these "electronic rust preventer" units, you need to run seperate ground return paths for all your components, bond the battery negative to the frame, and make sure all your dissimilar metals are electrically bonded to the frame. Then figure out what your "frame potential" should be (not a generic thing for all vehicles, as they will all have different amounts of dissimilar metals. Then set your impressed current system to the correct voltage, and for those few moments in time where the entire frame is coated in enough salt water to create the possibility of a galvanic cell - you might be better off.

Or you could just paint the frame and not worry about it.

**Edit**

For those of you who have seen these systems in operation underground (tanks & pipelines) the same theory applies, the earth is a good conductor, so you can theorize that the tank is "immersed" in another conductor. While the various metals will not have the same voltages as they would in salt water, they do still all have their natural voltages. Forcing an impressed current on all of them, will bring them all within the tolerable range of the important one - the tank/pipe.

 

[Tode555]

Very good explanation of the theory. I guess I will go put away all of my electrical stuff .

 

[Freewheel]

Back to POR 15, Krown treatments and bar oil then...

 

[grant5127]

The theory of electronic rust prevention is age old within itself....I remember reading "Does it Work" articles in Popular Science magazines back in the seventies... most of the studies claimed that the process actually sets the stage for promoting engine/colling system electrolysis......Electronic rust protectors use a technique called Cathodic Protection where a flow of electrons is forced through the metal which brings it closer to an immune state and reduces the metal’s corrosion potential. Cathodic Protection can only work if there is a complete electrical circuit to bring back electrons. That’s why these devices can work for boats, bridges, pipelines and etc., since there is a pool of ions surrounding the metal to conduct electricity and to close the circuit. So, unless you bury your car or submerge it in water, these electronic rust protectors cannot possibly work for cars (remember that all the metal to be protected needs to be surrounded by free electrons so it’s not as simple as grounding your car)..........

 

[Freewheel]

Actually, now that I remember why I brought this up, C****y Tire is installing and guaranteeing these things... and they are sold out at all the local stores... Is this a dupefest or are we missing out on keeping our frames solid for a few extra years?

 

[MrMoMo]

The theory of electronic rust prevention is age old within itself....I remember reading "Does it Work" articles in Popular Science magazines back in the seventies... most of the studies claimed that the process actually sets the stage for promoting engine/colling system electrolysis......

PLEASE!! dont use that word unless you are removing hair from a body or splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen. Electrolysis: "Production of chemical changes by the passage of current through an electrolyte"

This word is EXTREMELY mis-used in the corrosion world, so much so that it has become commonplace, but is not correct!

Since steel is NOT an electrolyte, what you are speaking of is not electrolysis... it is corrosion.

Cathodic Protection can only work if there is a complete electrical circuit to bring back electrons. That’s why these devices can work for boats, bridges, pipelines and etc., since there is a pool of ions surrounding the metal to conduct electricity and to close the circuit. So, unless you bury your car or submerge it in water, these electronic rust protectors cannot possibly work for cars (remember that all the metal to be protected needs to be surrounded by free electrons so it’s not as simple as grounding your car)..........

Correct, in layman terms the "pool of Ions" is in this case is the salt water, or the earth. The Air, which surrounds our vehicles does not contaion enough free electrons to allow the passage of current through it (Air is not an electrical conductor, infact it is an insulator) so there is no return path for the circuit. Current requires a full loop in order to flow - so the air becomes the break in the circuit. Immerse the same items in salt water, and the salt water closes the loop, just like closing a switch - now the current can flow.

As another example, drain all the acid out of your battery and see how many volts you get between the terminals..... nothing, because the air is not allowing the flow of electrons. Replace the acid with salt water, and you will measure a voltage (likely not 12V)

Take your copper and aluminum that I said to shove into a potato, keep them the same distance apart as they were in the potato, but have nothing but air between them - and try to measure voltage again. You will get 0 VDC.

 

[donny paradise]

PLEASE!! dont use that word unless you are removing hair from a body or splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen. Electrolysis: "Production of chemical changes by the passage of current through an electrolyte"

This word is EXTREMELY mis-used in the corrosion world, so much so that it has become commonplace, but is not correct!

Since steel is NOT an electrolyte, what you are speaking of is not electrolysis... it is corrosion.

You must be leading a sheltered life if you haven't heard about coolant electrolysis problems. The process totally crapped my BMW engine Do a search on engine electrolysis and check-out the results, furthermore check what it can do to the common household electric hot water heater

 

[MrMoMo]

No no... I wasn't disagreeing with the Coolant issue, just the use of the word electrolysis in place of corrosion. It is unfortunate that it has become commonplace, because it is not the correct term - though it is widely used.