Electrics question

[LAMBCRUSHER]

As I stated, some inspectors will call on the green or bare copper issue; ie don't use grey or red wire nuts on a ground, while at the same time, the same guy told me I did not have to paint the red wire nuts on the neutral wires white...go figure...I think it's in 110-14-12 or at least, it is right in that general area...

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

OK, thank you, I was wondering about that. So, it's just the lack of the green hex head screw in the threaded hole that would be an issue? And (seriously) would an inspector make an issue of that?

I teach a basic Residential Electricity class, I try to teach as much of the NEC as possible in 7 weeks, to students that aren't going to be electricians, just builders. It's also a hands-on class where they actually do some wiring, and I have a couple of exercises using metal boxes, with the green screws. Anecdotes like this are very useful.

Our university only allows conduit circuits in all buildings (no NM cable), and they also require pulling a green ground wire.

Soo... did you get your torque screwdrivers yet? I had to buy 4 of them.

The two parts of the NEC article 90 was ingrained on me early. Not quotes, my memory from many years back
1) INTENT - The NEC is not to be used a design guide or an instruction manual it is a tool.
2) ENFORCEMENT - The administrative authority aka inspector can interpret, require, and waive anything in the NEC to maintain safety.

One of the first hiring question I ask is do you have a code book and do you know how to use it. I find most inspectors are reasonable when approached with respect but 'I thought' does not hold much weight when debating an inspector something he calls you on. I have had good luck with this is how I interpreted art. 215.4, how do read it? In the end if an inspector is dead set on you jumping the correct answer is how high and you get a green star just think a$$hole to yourself.

@decavo will agree

 

[KLF]

The '17 code book is a required text in this class, and yes I read the beginning of Art 90 on the first day. I bought the loose leaf version this time, and it's already all marked up and highlighted with my own notes. Unfortunately I don't have it with me right now, tomorrow's lecture is on gfci and afci devices. They're working both in a 20A circuit this week.

Very informative thread, apologies to the OP that it got distracted.

 

[billmc]

Very informative thread, apologies to the OP that it got distracted.

No apologies necessary, I'm learning a lot. I wish I could take your class. You're up in Durham right? My brother lived in Lee until a month ago.

 

[KLF]

Yes I'm at UNH, specifically in the Associates program at the Thompson School. It's a living until something better comes along.

I drive through Lee every day.

 

[decavo]

The two parts of the NEC article 90 was ingrained on me early. Not quotes, my memory from many years back
1) INTENT - The NEC is not to be used a design guide or an instruction manual it is a tool.
2) ENFORCEMENT - The administrative authority aka inspector can interpret, require, and waive anything in the NEC to maintain safety.

One of the first hiring question I ask is do you have a code book and do you know how to use it. I find most inspectors are reasonable when approached with respect but 'I thought' does not hold much weight when debating an inspector something he calls you on. I have had good luck with this is how I interpreted art. 215.4, how do read it? In the end if an inspector is dead set on you jumping the correct answer is how high and you get a green star just think a$$hole to yourself.

@decavo will agree

Yup...... I am always reasonable.... Make a good case and I will side with the electrician sometimes.... Just don't be a dumb A$$....... I prefer I give out an approval. Than to its type up a notice and find the chapter and verse to nail some one on a violation

We also inspect to the specs of the approved set of plans. They sometimes call for more than the NEC. Calls for...

Remember the NEC is the bare minimum for safety.

As an. Inspt if. The job is neat with good workmanship over all, the small stuff I do not notice.

 

[decavo]

remember there is also local and state code than supersede the NEC ....

 

[decavo]

except, I know of one inspector who would have nailed you on that screw not being green... he said the applicable article was in 200 "somewhere" but he was wrong- it was under identified for the purpose...?110-14-something; something about splicing and terminating connections being "identified for the purpose"... "purpose" meaning which conductor it was being utilized to splice apparently...

need to look, but 250 also calls for green ground screws... no code book handy....

The lack of a green hex screw was what I was trying to refer as a NEC purist detail.

Phoenix requires a ground wire in any type conduit.

that is a local code..... But is required with concentric knockouts in some cases..... then a bonding bushing is needed also...

OK, thank you, I was wondering about that. So, it's just the lack of the green hex head screw in the threaded hole that would be an issue? And (seriously) would an inspector make an issue of that?

I teach a basic Residential Electricity class, I try to teach as much of the NEC as possible in 7 weeks, to students that aren't going to be electricians, just builders. It's also a hands-on class where they actually do some wiring, and I have a couple of exercises using metal boxes, with the green screws. Anecdotes like this are very useful.

Our university only allows conduit circuits in all buildings (no NM cable), and they also require pulling a green ground wire.

Soo... did you get your torque screwdrivers yet? I had to buy 4 of them.

YES ! ! ! !! ! green screws is an easy way to fail someone..... We require a ground pigtail in all metal boxes at rough in... It is the only time we get to see the box open....

 

[decavo]

If you want to do it yourself, I can give you a hand over the phone too. it is an easy job.... 20-40 bucks max

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

YES ! ! ! !! ! green screws is an easy way to fail someone..... We require a ground pigtail in all metal boxes at rough in... It is the only time we get to see the box open....

I assume you want to see the pigtail also because of the grounds requirement to terminate at the screw and not loop through?

 

[KLF]

So... What about bringing NM cable through a metal box (with clamps). I have been twisting the bare grounds with a greenie nut, leaving about 2" sticking out of the head of the greenie, which gets tied to the box with a green screw. Like this:

(that is my demo box wiring that I pass around the class, which is why the NM is cut off. The device is a self-grounding receptacle)

Are you saying I should be screwing a pigtail to the box, then twisting all 3 together?

 

[billmc]

Thanks everyone for all the input and the offers of help! I'm really enjoying the discussion. I just got a chance to pull the cover off of the panel in the garage and found out exactly which circuit that junction box is on. And I'm also reminded why electricians run in fear when they see it. Here's a pic:

The circuit in question enters on the lower left and the 2 red wires both go to screw caps. The gray wire joins one red in the rightmost screw cap.

That red continues on to the 3rd breaker down on the right, which is for the family room baseboard heat. Needless to say, I don't think I'll be using that circuit.

 

[Music Man]

any one else see what looks like burnt hot leads in the last picture?

 

[billmc]

any one else see what looks like burnt hot leads in the last picture?

I'll recheck them, I think it's mouse feces you're seeing

 

[Music Man]

Just to the left of the bottom screw in to the wall?

 

[decavo]

So... What about bringing NM cable through a metal box (with clamps). I have been twisting the bare grounds with a greenie nut, leaving about 2" sticking out of the head of the greenie, which gets tied to the box with a green screw. Like this:

View attachment 1539279

(that is my demo box wiring that I pass around the class, which is why the NM is cut off. The device is a self-grounding receptacle)

Are you saying I should be screwing a pigtail to the box, then twisting all 3 together?

How are you grounding the device? You can loop around the screw.... The wires must extend 6in outside the box. Bonds tied together and hit the device. Does the recpt not have a ground screw..... No one uses metal Romex conn anymore... All plastic pop in garbage.... I do not think self grounding recpt are legal never seen one used...

 

[decavo]

I assume you want to see the pigtail also because of the grounds requirement to terminate at the screw and not loop through?

To ground the device if using conduit.... MC, BX, will be installed at rough and one can see the grounds terminated

 

[KLF]

How are you grounding the device? ... I do not think self grounding recpt are legal never seen one used...

Self-grounded recepts are allowed under Art 250.146 (A) and (B)

The wires must extend 6in outside the box.

No, you must have at least 6" of wire INSIDE the box. You also need at least 3" extending outside the opening of the outlet. See Art 300.14.

...and you're an inspector?

 

[billmc]

Just to the left of the bottom screw in to the wall?

I went out and checked them this morning. It looks like mice have nibbled the insulation on three small black wires, so there is some exposed copper. They're not in contact with any other wires, but I need to find an electrician to come have a look at it. In the meanwhile I'll at least wrap the sections in black tape. Thanks for noticing that!

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

I went out and checked them this morning. It looks like mice have nibbled the insulation on three small black wires, so there is some exposed copper. They're not in contact with any other wires, but I need to find an electrician to come have a look at it. In the meanwhile I'll at least wrap the sections in black tape. Thanks for noticing that!

Shrink wrap would be my choice