Dual Battery Upgrade - The Modular Way

[Markuson]

+1 on the NOCO. If your thinking about using a GZ due to modularity and the ability to go from DD to expedition rig by swapping stuff out, I'd also argue why not just throw a second battery under the hood. There is enough room, its cheaper, and its always out of the way.

The Noco also easily runs a small (300Watt) inverter via its 12V out socket if needed in a tent.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

But doesn’t 100ah AGM only give you 50ah useable power? I just had a group 31 in my 4runner for 10 years and that’s all I thought I could ever run down.

So in your example of charging in three hours, are you talking recharging 100ah or 50ah?

How much does the setup you describe weigh?

That’s more of a lead acid situation, AGM you can get about 80 ah out of it. But... AGM can do that three time longer than NMC.

That said, when testing in real world it’s not really showing what I wanted. I’m being completely sincere when I say this, you can find posts from me a year or so ago where I was saying ow this GZ Lithium’s were better.

I took two ARB 50 qt (one mine and one my buddies) and ran them on a GZ 1400 and a Northstar 27 group (80 ah). The GZ made it 38 hours, the 27 group made it 56 hours. I flipped the two fridges and tried it in two days when the batteries were charged again and they were within an hour plus or minus of the first run.

Now that was a version 1 GZ 1400, they have made changes, but in real life, it wasn’t doing it. Now for my smaller 400 lithium, where you can’t even use the new voltage regulator, and have to run off of AC power when the unit gets below about 65%, it can last only 9 hours. I should go back and say that the big batteries got tested in around mid to upper 70s, and the little 400 got tested at night when temps were around upper 60s.

Does that battery weight more? Yep, whole set up about 30 more pounds. Maybe that means something to some, but not me as I have very little in my 200. And I think that’s what is fun about this stuff. What doesn’t work for some, works for others and vice verse. Doesn’t make it wrong, just different ways of having fun. I’m not going to lie, I really wanted it to work better, but when I stopped for some lengthy time, it just wasn’t lasting as long as I anticipated under long sustained heavy load. I do better now with my massive starter battery and two 120 ah lithium brockets that cost me a total of $90. And they fit under my seat for charging while driving, and don’t take up space around my kids in the second row.

But hey, if you like it, that’s awesome, it is a very cool piece of technology in a rather small box. Just wish it wasn’t lithium ion, but the waaaayyyyyy better Lithium phosphate. But that costs money, however, you’ll spend more in the long run.

 

[TeCKis300]

Obviously the Goal Zero's not for everyone. Depending on ones needs, there might be a better choice. For my primary purposes in supporting 120V high draw loads in a well packaged light weight product, this is it.

There's some not so accurate pieces of information in this thread. To complain about Goal Zero prices, yet talk about Redarc Manager 30s which is alone $1200 worth of kit? Bare battery prices discounting cost of needed accessories and installation labor? Then there's someone complaining about weight (coming from you! LOL), nevermind that it has integrated BMS, inverters, and chargers.

Lithiums can charge better and faster than just about any chemistry. Goal Zero prices are fair. $39 / 10 amps. You can gang multiple together for 10,20, or 30 amps. Or go for the big daddy car charger which is 50 amps.

Agreed about heat however. It is the mortal enemy of many chemical reaction based batteries. Sure, it's not LifePO4. But very few things are.

@Taco2Cruiser, you may want to do some research on AGMs. If you are concerned about heat, AGMs are just about the worse at handing it. They hate heat and high voltages. Worse than standard lead acids even. I would keep it outside if the engine bay if at all possible.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

Obviously the Goal Zero's not for everyone. Depending on ones needs, there might be a better choice. For my primary purposes in supporting 120V high draw loads in a well packaged light weight product, this is it.

There's some not so accurate pieces of information in this thread. To complain about Goal Zero prices, yet talk about Redarc Manager 30s which is alone $1200 worth of kit? Bare battery prices discounting cost of needed accessories and installation labor? Then there's someone complaining about weight (coming from you! LOL), nevermind that it has integrated BMS, inverters, and chargers.

Lithiums can charge better and faster than just about any chemistry. Goal Zero prices are fair. $39 / 10 amps. You can gang multiple together for 10,20, or 30 amps. Or go for the big daddy car charger which is 50 amps.

Agreed about heat however. It is the mortal enemy of many chemical reaction based batteries. Sure, it's not LifePO4. But very few things are.

@Taco2Cruiser, you may want to do some research on AGMs. If you are concerned about heat, AGMs are just about the worse at handing it. They hate heat and high voltages. Worse than standard lead acids even. I would keep it outside if the engine bay if at all possible.

I mentioned the Manager 30 as what a customer was doing, but then I was using an overall example of a redarc charge controller which is $350 (which I said the price). You know... the same price as the "big daddy" Goal Zero charge controller that you mentioned. The one that goes from 25-50 amps (depending on a lot of variables). So if the GZ charge control that matches the charge rates of a Redarc cost the exact same, explain to me why someone can't buy a battery, a mount, and some wiring for cheaper than $800? That's what I was getting at, but I also see things as able to wiring my own stuff, not be limited to plugging it into a cigarette lighter. I don't mean that in a bad, way, that comment was genuine, and I know I need to see things in other's capabilities when it comes to modifying. I also look at life expectancy, and GZ 500 cycles from 100% to 80% is not really impressive.

But no man, I don't think you have all the right info on batteries and heat. You may work on some cool stuff in the air, but I worked for years on the counterpart of those on the ground. I oversaw power distribution within those future ground platforms, and AGM is not what you are making it out to be. We put some intensive heat on those systems, heat no 200 engine bay will ever see.

I don't get your weight comment though. Not sure what you are saying?

 

[Markuson]

Obviously the Goal Zero's not for everyone. Depending on ones needs, there might be a better choice. For my primary purposes in supporting 120V high draw loads in a well packaged light weight product, this is it.

There's some not so accurate pieces of information in this thread. To complain about Goal Zero prices, yet talk about Redarc Manager 30s which is alone $1200 worth of kit? Bare battery prices discounting cost of needed accessories and installation labor? Then there's someone complaining about weight (coming from you! LOL), nevermind that it has integrated BMS, inverters, and chargers.

Lithiums can charge better and faster than just about any chemistry. Goal Zero prices are fair. $39 / 10 amps. You can gang multiple together for 10,20, or 30 amps. Or go for the big daddy car charger which is 50 amps.

Agreed about heat however. It is the mortal enemy of many chemical reaction based batteries. Sure, it's not LifePO4. But very few things are.

@Taco2Cruiser, you may want to do some research on AGMs. If you are concerned about heat, AGMs are just about the worse at handing it. They hate heat and high voltages. Worse than standard lead acids even. I would keep it outside if the engine bay if at all possible.

My big 1400watt GZ weight comment has only to do with a battery that is not attached... Something I would have to lift in and out...or secure so it doesn’t kill someone, etc.. It has no natural storage location...so that makes its heft an issue. My truck is heavy...yes indeed...almost 8k lbs...but nothing that heavy is loose or independent of the truck or that isn’t hard-mounted. My fridge is secured and is planted in my truck at all times.

As for AGMs... and your comments to Taco and others...about how AGMs can’t do heat, etc... die an early death...blah blah blah.
Man...I have done three summer Moab well over 100 degrees for long, slow trail days...for days on end....with my original AGM...and a zillion others heavy use scenarios at massive, constant draw...and after 4 years, my original Oddyssey type 35 is a workhorse despite being utilized to the limit for four years. So much so that another one replaced the defective Interstate main. They are performing well...and I’ll gladly offer you an ice cream kept frozen by them should you ever actually grace a significant trail with me.

Frankly, TEK...you come off as a massive knowitall who actually does very little with his LC...yet magically claims expertise in basically all things LC.

There. I said it—long over-due. -Lots of folks here thinkin it...so I said it. But anyway...

Again... You are welcome to ice cream on 110 degree trail heat any time...kept frozen by my 4 year old AGM.

We now return to our normal programming.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

Yeah Tek, I'm sure we would get along in person but man... whenever you write something it just comes off as absolute fact. Then when one of us offer a different opinion, you respond with comments like "you might want to do more research." But as Markuson pointed out, you really don't mess with much. I don't know man, I'm sure it's some of my fault also, and I'm sure it's some of Marks too. Maybe we all need to just take a break for a bit.

 

[Itsky]

Pretty stupid comment @Markuson !

You have no idea what anybody else does with their truck. Only what people post, and what you might see on a trip or event.

As for your inference of a GZ being dangerous due to its weight, that’s just silly bro. Just like everything Else it can be strapped down. You have one of the heaviest LCs yet a dual battery kit at 40 lbs is heavy? Seriously, WTF are you talking about?

 

[Markuson]

Pretty stupid comment @Markuson !

You have no idea what anybody else does with their truck. Only what people post, and what you might see on a trip or event.

As for your inference of a GZ being dangerous due to its weight, that’s just silly bro. Just like everything Else it can be strapped down. You have one of the heaviest LCs yet a dual battery kit at 40 lbs is heavy? Seriously, WTF are you talking about?

Never called it dangerous, mate, & wasn’t talking about total truck weight.

Just mentioned that when I physically picked up the 1400watt lithium up off the display at REI yesterday, I was very surprised at its weight. Then T went off bc I have a heavy truck and utterly missed the point...then pontificated as usual...I got annoyed.

But GZz are great. Nothing against them at all. I just get tired of the endless pontificating.

Carry on.

 

[TeCKis300]

And you come off as a fairy waxing massive opinion. You must be doing it right to have all those high quality AGMs die on you. Must be all the massive use.

I just recently put my older (but otherwise identical) second type 35 onto the main tray, replacing my type 31...so at the moment, I have matching odyssey type 35’s. So far, it seems to leech off the other less than before.

One of the interesting things with the IBS system is that the “charging” light often stays on after the truck is off. I believe what’s happening is it is “charging” the more drained battery from the other. This isn’t good in my thinking, because if one is super low...it spirals downward.

My Interstate type 31 AGM main has been a problematic battery. Interstate found an internal short-/or something akin to one (?)—in my first one...replaced it with this one (which is of similar manufacture date)...and it seems to exhibit a similar behavior.

I think they sell a tiny number of them...so I suspect they do small production runs. They are so obscure that even the main Interstate distribution point in San Diego has to special order them.

But anyway...now that my batteries match (35+35), I’m seeing better results, but I would rather have larger in both slots. Wondering what the largest battery size is that can squeeze into the Slee tray #2 slot is... But my battery use is much heavier than most. If I could, I’d love to have two “second” batteries in parallel...in isolation from the main. More like a battery bank on an RV...but not likely to happen. Might try it someday, as there is room in back...but that’s a long wiring run from the alternator.

But again, my use is extreme, so who knows.

For most folks, dual batteries are a pretty worry free affair. With heavy use of constant fridge, chargers, etc. it definitely gets complicated.

You and I don't have to get along. Just understand that I don't live in the world of opinion, and that's inconvenient for you.

I'll let the data speak for itself. I know sometimes it needs interpretation, but I'll let you guys figure this one out.

 

[Markuson]

And you come off as a fairy waxing massive opinion.

Nice.

Man, I just tell what I’ve done, why, and how it’s gone. Good...bad...or otherwise. No claims of expertise on anything.

“All those AGMs that died”?

Um... TEK?
I am still using my original AGM type 35. Interstate tested a single type 31 as defective with an internal short. Nothing whatever to do with load nor age nor charging nor heat. They also determined there was a defective RUN of them that included the production date of mine. Now that you know the facts, it would be great if you’d quit ad libbing them on my behalf.

 

[TeCKis300]

Nice.

Interstate tested a type 31 as defective with an internal short. Nothing whatever to do with load or age or heat. Please send info to them as that was their determination. Not mine.

And you have no clue that there's always a cause to various failure modes. I sit around and do this professionally buddy.

 

[Markuson]

I sit around and do this professionally buddy.

We know. You tell us with regularity.

This favorite scene from the Andy Griffith Show says it batter than I can...and just plain funny. Theory and study are essentials, no doubt. But...

-Worth 2 minutes. Don Knots was genius.
(my second favorite series of all time)

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

And you have no clue that there's always a cause to various failure modes. I sit around and do this professionally buddy.

I do this professionally also, but I don't finish arguments with "I do this for a living." I tell examples of what I am actually testing.

This is exactly why I got put into a job when I was active duty that paired engineers with warfighters. Engineers have lots of technical knowledge, yes. But they don't know what it's actually like on the ground, and they need to to be reminded regularly. And conversely, warfighter needed to be reminded that engineers are human and make mistakes also. That's a lot of what's happening here.

I'm gonna go now, I just don't want to do this anymore. So tired of fighting over dumb crap.

 

[Itsky]

.... I also look at life expectancy, and GZ 500 cycles from 100% to 80% is not really impressive.

...

It looks like Odyssey Extremes are rated at 400 cycles from 80%.

https://www.odysseybattery.com/documents/US-ODY-TM-002_1214.pdf

“
Unlike other AGM VRLA batteries, the ODYSSEY battery is capable of delivering up to 400 cycles when discharged to 80% DOD and properly charged.”

So a GZ has 125% the life cycle. Is that right, or is another type of AGMs out there? I had always purchased sears diehard platinum and odyssey extremes, as they seemed to have the best reputation.

 

[Eric Sarjeant]

Getting back on topic for a sec. I’ll be the first to admit I’m not an expert in any way. But I have a GoalZero Yeti (lithium) 1400 (bought for $995 at REI Garage Sale) and I can power my Engel 45qt for 5 days purely on the Yeti. That’s with zero alternator assistance. The portability factor, integrated pure sine inverter, Anderson port for expansion, additional solar ports, usb ports (including type C) and easy iPhone app... to me it’s a no- brainer for an amateur like myself.

I’ve installed DCDCs including the prestigious RedArc Manager30 ($1300) for custom builds add a LiFePo4 battery ($1000) or even a less expensive AGM and then you add a 1000 watt (or bigger) pure sine inverter, the wiring, fuses, fuse blocks, switches, bracket(s), USB ports, 12-volt ports, shore power ports, and labor (or your own time/sanity), it’s just not realistic to compare the value in the Goal Zero offerings IMO.

Then imagine chasing a phantom electrical draw (or something else not perfectly working) on your precious day(s) off and adding stress to a camping trip. Even a basic (quality) DCDC setup will exceed the price of a Goal Zero in most cases IMO with things compared fairly.

Another side note, the Goal Zero iPhone app tells you (amongst a lot more) exactly how much power you have (yes, a high end BMS or DCDC with guages may too, but you would need to run yet another cable and install it taking up more space). For example, time to charge, and hours(days) till 0%.

Bonus (yet obvious) side note, you can put it in the house when the power goes out.
I actually split the $995 price with a buddy @Higgin so if you have that as an option with similar minded friends then your value is doubled.

Not saying this is the best option for everyone because we all have our own knowledge, applications and skill levels but I REALLY like my Goal Zero.

 

[TeCKis300]

I do this professionally also, but I don't finish arguments with "I do this for a living." I tell examples of what I am actually testing.

This is exactly why I got put into a job when I was active duty that paired engineers with warfighters. Engineers have lots of technical knowledge, yes. But they don't know what it's actually like on the ground, and they need to to be reminded regularly. And conversely, warfighter needed to be reminded that engineers are human and make mistakes also. That's a lot of what's happening here.

I'm gonna go now, I just don't want to do this anymore. So tired of fighting over dumb crap.

With all due respect, I appreciate your stories and doings. Believe it or not, some of my favorite colleagues hail from the field and I find them more relatable than the engineering teams. My responses weren't directed at you so much as it was in defense to the jabs from the massive _____, that I "do very little". I do this crap day in and day out on mission critical systems to make sure our warfighters are protected. I hold my teams to a high standard to make sure appropriate due diligence is exercised in design and implementation. Things aren't always right the first time but with some iteration and testing it comes together. After all too many years of this, one learns a thing or two.

I know tone is not translated well in text. I've been accused of being too succinct. Yet I do try to stay neutral, yet fact accurate. Which is why I often quote and reference where possible. This is a technical forum after all.

Back on topic, I have used my fair share of AGMs. Some of the best. Odyssey extreme. Metal jacket. Some types tolerate heat better than others. As valve regulated lead acid (VRLA) batts that will vent electrolyte when exposed to too high of temps, they don't like high underhood heat and will fail prematurely because of it. I've found them to last about 2 years underhood.

 

[JohnJB]

Man, you’d think y’all were arguing over how to skin a cat!

Question from a GZ noob and one that I’m not sure was answered earlier even though it was asked: is the battery in these Yetis replaceable if and when it goes kaput? I realize there’s likely a basic warranty, but I’m talking about down the road.

 

[Eric Sarjeant]

Man, you’d think y’all were arguing over how to skin a cat!

Question from a GZ noob and one that I’m not sure was answered earlier even though it was asked: is the battery in these Yetis replaceable if and when it goes kaput? I realize there’s likely a basic warranty, but I’m talking about down the road.

I know the Goal Zero warranty is 1-year. However, if you buy at REI, it may be longer as they have an unconditional lifetime warranty, but this product may be excluded. Some Yeti batteries are replaceable (150, 400, 1250). I don't know/think the Lithium's ones are (yet as least).

 

[TeCKis300]

Man, you’d think y’all were arguing over how to skin a cat!

Question from a GZ noob and one that I’m not sure was answered earlier even though it was asked: is the battery in these Yetis replaceable if and when it goes kaput? I realize there’s likely a basic warranty, but I’m talking about down the road.

Yup. I don't know the replacement price. Hopefully much better than the unit purchase price?

I expect much better than 500 cycles. Like any chemical battery, it depends on the average depth of discharge per use. 500 would be just about worse case.

1 year + extra year warranty when registered with goalzero.

From the horses mouth:

 

[CLHickman]

I know the Goal Zero warranty is 1-year. However, if you buy at REI, it may be longer as they have an unconditional lifetime warranty, but this product may be excluded. Some Yeti batteries are replaceable (150, 400, 1250). I don't know/think the Lithium's ones are (yet as least).

Eric, you might want to validate the warranty (customer satisfaction) from REI. I believe it has since changed and they offer a 90 day electronic and 1-year return policy on everything else. Still not bad at all, but I've been a long time fan of REI and this was disappointing.