Don't let them have your 200 (3 Viewers)

[2021 LC200]

Maybe this shows there are not many good choices on the market at this point + Ford and Car & Driver are both American

For that matter any car magazine and reviewers are biased or skewed as to how they get treated or want to keep the peace minus a few out there being critical.

More and more information needs to be digested and cross checked as to common sense.

 

[MRego]

I have nothing against the LC250, Land Cruiser, Prado, whatever you want to call it. Actually, I really like them including the GX470, GX460, 4Runner. They all have a place. For the right individual, including yourself, may be a more perfect choice.

Don't get deluded that they are all the same however. For those of us that have different requirements and needs, the new "Land Cruiser" is not the same vehicle as before. It will come up short if that's the expectation. That's just a fact and shouldn't even be a surprise based on the price class of the vehicle. You shouldn't be offended.

Go enjoy your LC250.

Summed up pretty well! I do not get why people get so rowdy when you point out the differences and they immediately think you are belittling them or their purchases. The vehicles are just in two different classes, with their pros and cons. The real culprit here is Toyota that came up with the whole "new Land Cruiser" stunt treating the 250 as an evolution of the 200, which we all know is quite the opposite.

 

[Jetboy]

I have nothing against the LC250, Land Cruiser, Prado, whatever you want to call it. Actually, I really like them including the GX470, GX460, 4Runner. They all have a place. For the right individual, including yourself, may be a more perfect choice.

Get get deluded that they are all the same however. For those of us that have different requirements and needs, the new "Land Cruiser" is not the same vehicle as before. It will come up short if that's the expectation. That's just a fact and shouldn't even be a surprise based on the price class of the vehicle. You shouldn't be offended.

Go enjoy your LC250.

I think the question I end up with is - what expectation are you meaning? I can't think of a lot of things the 200 does better. It's cheaper now. So, it's probably a better value proposition to buy a used 200 vs new 250 for many people. A lease return 2021 LX570 has a lot more luxury features than a 1958 LC250 at the same price. No argument there. Comparing a base LC200, it's not so clear. It seems like offroad it's a clear advantage to the LC250. Towing maybe advantage to the 200 although that seems unclear - turbo likely out pulls the v8 in the mountains, v8 probably wins at lower elevation. With a tune it seems like the turbo 4 will pull better in all conditions.

 

[MRego]

Summed up pretty well! I do not get why people get so rowdy when you point out the differences and they immediately think you are belittling them or their purchases. The vehicles are just in two different classes, with their pros and cons. The real culprit here is Toyota that came up with the whole "new Land Cruiser" stunt treating the 250 as an evolution of the 200, which we all know is quite the opposite (except for tech).

 

[Jetboy]

I was going to mention the bronco's being cheaper. $25k UNDER msrp is nuts! Maybe that (and ad revenue) is what gave it the number 1 spot?

Yeah - they initially were around $70k and then ford ran the MSRP way up to $95 or so. But the market price didn't follow. I know there's usually more margin in the high end trims, but I'd have to imagine dealers are taking big losses selling a $94K MSRP for $70k like this one:

https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/new/searchresults.action?sourceContext=carGurusHomePageModel&showNegotiable=false&distance=50000&inventorySearchWidgetType=NEW_CAR&zip=85043&entitySelectingHelper.selectedEntity=d3225&maxPrice=60000&shopByTypes=MIX&isDeliveryEnabled=true#listing=382972846/NONE/DEFAULT

 

[2021 LC200]

So Jetboy, with 6000 lbs towing rating of the 250 series in turbo hybrid (US) version we are now claiming it will tow as good as or even better than the 200 series V8 rated at 8100 lbs (earlier models 8500 lbs)? You are just basing that on HP and torque curves? Is that with or without electric support which runs out pretty quick out of town? And imagine the load you are putting on that little 4 banger…

While sports aero planes will squeeze out more specific power they also need to be overhauled every 2000 hrs or so which is about 100k miles equivalent at 50mph average which is basically mostly highway use. That is not what I want in a Toyota.

 

[Jetboy]

So Jetboy, with 6000 lbs towing rating of the 250 series in turbo hybrid (US) version we are now claiming it will tow as good as or even better than the 200 series V8 rated at 8100 lbs (earlier models 8500 lbs)? You are just basing that on HP and torque curves? Is that with or without electric support which runs out pretty quick out of town? And imagine the load you are putting on that little 4 banger…

While sports aero planes will squeeze out more specific power they also need to be overhauled every 2000 hrs or so which is about 100k miles equivalent at 50mph average which is basically mostly highway use. That is not what I want in a Toyota.

I mean - if you hooked up the same trailer behind both, either 6 or 8k lbs, - the LC250 would pull it up a steep pass faster or maintain a higher constant speed.

The 200 rating is definitely higher. No debate there. Which one actually tows better - I'm not sure. The T24A has very similar power output at 2k rpms as the 5.7. More below, and less above that point. Depending on the trailer size assuming similar shift logic it would tend to downshift less often and pull the same load at lower rpms generally unless the trailer requires over 2k rpms for steady state towing. In that case the v8 probably does better. But that's also at sea level. By the top of a 8,000 foot pass, the 5.7 will be about 50hp short of the T25A at mid range rpms and just a bit more at WOT. The V8 would drop to about 290hp where the T24A should still be right around 280hp. It's pretty close at the top end, not very close lower in the rpm range where the turbo 4 will have a big advantage. At least on paper the v8 probably has the advantage at sea level, the turbo 4 in the mountains.

I haven't towed with either one to really evaluate it though so it's hard to really compare without doing it. Chassis wise - they're functionally identical in terms of suspension design, wheel base, weight, etc. Just based on the power curves - I would expect the turbo4 to pull better in the sense of lower rpms and less shifting and better fuel economy under similar conditions. It's hard to compare though without doing a side by side test with the same loads.

I think the hybrid system is a net negative for towing. The TFL tow test showed that the 4Runner performed better than the LC250 in similar conditions with similar trailers. It appears that the hybrid system basically just shuts off when under heavier loads like towing after the initial acceleration.

It's too early to tell on the engine life. Just not enough time and miles in the field to get a good idea of whether the new engine will last as long - or at least long enough for it to not be the typical cause of the end of life for the vehicle. There are many turbo engines that will outlive the vehicle they're in and plenty that have not had good track records. Just don't really know on this one yet. I do think the fuel efficiency is a big disappointment for the 4cyl. It's not a high thermal efficiency engine and it's added a lot of complexity to also not be very efficient. I'd love to see what kind of efficiency could have been pulled out of something like a 5.7 with a single low pressure turbo and a 10 speed. I suspect it may have outperformed the small displacement turbos all around.

 

[2021 LC200]

I tow in S6 on flats in the 2000 to 3000 rpm (or 125 to 220 HP at crankshaft) and uphill in the 3500 to 5000 rpm (or 270 to 360 HP) ranges.

Was not able to find the US 250 series HP and torque curves, then again it is ICE / Electric motor combination. I did find an excerpt from C&D, see below. On flat roads at higher loads and towing uphill for more than a couple of miles I do not think much battery power will be left. You are basically looking peak continuous performance outside town of 278 HP and 317 ft lbs. That is about 2/3rds of what the 3UR-FE can do in the 3500 to 5000 rpm range.

This places the 250 Prado in one class down, which what it effectively is.

Now the 250 GX does get there as long as the bearings cooperate. I am still hopeful Toyota will fix this.

POWERTRAIN (from Car and Driver, assume this is correct)
turbocharged and intercooled DOHC 16-valve inline-4, aluminum block and head, port and direct fuel injection, 278 hp, 317 lb-ft + 1 permanent-magnet synchronous AC motor, 48 hp, 184 lb-ft (combined output: 326 hp, 465 lb-ft; 0.9-kWh air-cooled nickel-metal hydride battery pack)
Transmission: 8-speed automatic

 

[TeCKis300]

I think the question I end up with is - what expectation are you meaning? I can't think of a lot of things the 200 does better. It's cheaper now. So, it's probably a better value proposition to buy a used 200 vs new 250 for many people. A lease return 2021 LX570 has a lot more luxury features than a 1958 LC250 at the same price. No argument there. Comparing a base LC200, it's not so clear. It seems like offroad it's a clear advantage to the LC250. Towing maybe advantage to the 200 although that seems unclear - turbo likely out pulls the v8 in the mountains, v8 probably wins at lower elevation. With a tune it seems like the turbo 4 will pull better in all conditions.

Great question and I do agree some of the lines are blurring. At least for me, I use my 200-series similar to how one might use a 3/4-ton truck. To your point, there is a lot of potential overlap between a 1/2-ton and HD truck for most people. At some level of payload and capacities, HD users are going to see increasing differences in how they perform and last. Even as their wheelbase is more similar than ever, the cab of the 200-series is functionally larger. That space and carrying capacity makes all the difference to my family of 4 car camping off-road for long weekends, or hosting 6 for a long road trip with my travel trailer at a combined weight of 15k+ lbs.

The tailgate - I spend so much time on it, can't believe it can't be found in any model in the new lineup.

Overall NVH and comfort - all that mass in the 200-series makes it like an all-terrain Bentley. The 250-series, as good as it might be, isn't at the same level of overall refinement and comfort both on and off-road. You can overland in any rig, but none will be at the level of all day comfort of a full fat Land Cruiser.

 

[Jetboy]

I tow in S6 on flats in the 2000 to 3000 rpm (or 125 to 220 HP at crankshaft) and uphill in the 3500 to 5000 rpm (or 270 to 360 HP) ranges.

View attachment 3855171

Was not able to find the US 250 series HP and torque curves, then again it is ICE / Electric motor combination. I did find an excerpt from C&D, see below. On flat roads at higher loads and towing uphill for more than a couple of miles I do not think much battery power will be left. You are basically looking peak continuous performance outside town of 278 HP and 317 ft lbs. That is about 2/3rds of what the 3UR-FE can do in the 3500 to 5000 rpm range.

This places the 250 Prado in one class down, which what it effectively is.

Now the 250 GX does get there as long as the bearings cooperate. I am still hopeful Toyota will fix this.

POWERTRAIN (from Car and Driver, assume this is correct)
turbocharged and intercooled DOHC 16-valve inline-4, aluminum block and head, port and direct fuel injection, 278 hp, 317 lb-ft + 1 permanent-magnet synchronous AC motor, 48 hp, 184 lb-ft (combined output: 326 hp, 465 lb-ft; 0.9-kWh air-cooled nickel-metal hydride battery pack)
Transmission: 8-speed automatic

At sea level.

At elevation - the v8 doesn't do as well. The T24A hits 317 ft/lbs at IIRC 1,700 rpms and is capped at that level by the software tune to be flat through the rpm range up to around 4k rpms. So we can just calculate the hp. At 2000 rpms it would have 120hp; at 3000 it is 181. A bit lower than the v8.

At 8k feet (top of a typical pass in the rockies) - the 5.7 would be more like 95hp at 2000rpms and 165hp at 3000rpms. In that case the 4cyl has the slight power advantage over the v8.

 

[Zill]

The 4 popper is not a towing engine. Given the fact that Toyota had to drop the max tow rating on the 250 to 6k lbs because of the 4 popper. We know that because the frame is the same on the GX and they rate that at ~9k lbs with the V35A.

The tundra (which uses the same engine as the LC 200), has a max tow rating of 10,200 lbs. The limit on the LC 200 is not the engine, but rather the wheelbase length.

The V8 is significantly better at towing than the 4 popper - regardless of elevation differences. The 4 popper is not even in the same ballpark.

 

[2021 LC200]

At sea level.

At elevation - the v8 doesn't do as well. The T24A hits 317 ft/lbs at IIRC 1,700 rpms and is capped at that level by the software tune to be flat through the rpm range up to around 4k rpms. So we can just calculate the hp. At 2000 rpms it would have 120hp; at 3000 it is 181. A bit lower than the v8.

At 8k feet (top of a typical pass in the rockies) - the 5.7 would be more like 95hp at 2000rpms and 165hp at 3000rpms. In that case the 4cyl has the slight power advantage over the v8.

What about at 4000 and 5000 rpm on your 8000ft pass? That is what you will be doing and all day long with the 3UR-FE if you wish to do so.

 

[Jetboy]

The 4 popper is not a towing engine. Given the fact that Toyota had to drop the max tow rating on the 250 to 6k lbs because of the 4 popper. We know that because the frame is the same on the GX and they rate that at ~9k lbs with the V35A.

The tundra (which uses the same engine as the LC 200), has a max tow rating of 10,200 lbs. The limit on the LC 200 is not the engine, but rather the wheelbase length.

The V8 is significantly better at towing than the 4 popper - regardless of elevation differences. The 4 popper is not even in the same ballpark.

I'm not so sure. It's output is pretty similar to a small diesel - and apparently so is the NVH. The turbo v6 obviously out pulls the v8 pretty easily in all scenarios. The turbo 4 is probably designed around being interchangeable with the 4.6 v8. It's a very close analog to the small v8 in power output throughout most of the rpm range. In the higher elevations it'll start to match or exceed the 5.7. Not only is it in the same ballpark, it will beat it in some cases.

 

[Jetboy]

What about at 4000 and 5000 rpm on your 8000ft pass? That is what you will be doing and all day long with the 3UR-FE if you wish to do so.

It's about the same. The 3UR at elevation will only make around 290hp WOT at 5,600 rpm. The T24A will make 278hp at 6,000 rpms WOT. Both will likely run out at WOT for extended periods. If the hybrid was better - it would smoke the v8 in that case. But it's not. If the hybrid is worth 10hp - then it's a coin toss.

I think it would be really interesting to have someone like TFL do a side by side test on the Eisenhower pass and the 100 mile tow loop with identical trailers to compare both the performance, interior noise, and mpg.

I have a 5.7 Tundra - I was thinking about this and laughing that you could tow at 4-5k rpms all day long. Sure, as long as there's a gas station ever 50 miles. My 38 gallon tank seems small at times. 18 gallon tank in the 250 - that probably is a legitimate deal breaker for towing anything big very often.

 

[TeCKis300]

All great points. I'll echo what @Zill says, a 4banger hybrid engine is not a towing engine for multiple reasons:

- It may make power, but it's going to be well outside of its efficiency zone, make a racket, swill gas, and wear out quicker. Nevermind the smaller tanks they're usually fitted with
- Engine braking is a huge one. Even if it can get the load up to the top of the hill, mechanical engine braking on a small displacement motor is not going to do the job holding back the load safely. Yes the hybrid system could offer some regen, but with a small battery pack, that's not going to be enough to regen on longer hills.
- Combined that with potentially smaller brakes hybrids usually get fitted with...
- The LC250 smaller diff is not going to put up with larger loads long term.

Towing heavier loads is not where it will compete with the HD 200-series. The GX550 will do a better job, but HD 200-series may do it best.

 

[Zill]

I'm not so sure. It's output is pretty similar to a small diesel - and apparently so is the NVH. The turbo v6 obviously out pulls the v8 pretty easily in all scenarios. The turbo 4 is probably designed around being interchangeable with the 4.6 v8. It's a very close analog to the small v8 in power output throughout most of the rpm range. In the higher elevations it'll start to match or exceed the 5.7. Not only is it in the same ballpark, it will beat it in some cases.

There’s no replacement for displacement when it comes to using engine braking on the descent. The 4 popper is not a heavy duty engine to use for towing anything substantial. It will haul your small u-haul or a small boat, but beyond that, it’a not the right tool for the job. There’s a reason why Toyota limited the 250 towing to 6k lbs.

This goes back to the 250 not being the swiss army knife of utility that the 200 series offers.

200 > 250 in almost every aspect.

To argue the 250 engine is a better towing engine than the 200 is laughable.

 

[stonepa]

I think the question I end up with is - what expectation are you meaning? I can't think of a lot of things the 200 does better. It's cheaper now. So, it's probably a better value proposition to buy a used 200 vs new 250 for many people. A lease return 2021 LX570 has a lot more luxury features than a 1958 LC250 at the same price. No argument there. Comparing a base LC200, it's not so clear. It seems like offroad it's a clear advantage to the LC250. Towing maybe advantage to the 200 although that seems unclear - turbo likely out pulls the v8 in the mountains, v8 probably wins at lower elevation. With a tune it seems like the turbo 4 will pull better in all conditions.

For me it would be payload and known maintenance

 

[Jetboy]

All great points. I'll echo what @Zill says, a 4banger hybrid engine is not a towing engine for multiple reasons:

- It may make power, but it's going to be well outside of its efficiency zone, make a racket, swill gas, and wear out quicker. Nevermind the smaller tanks they're usually fitted with
- Engine braking is a huge one. Even if it can get the load up to the top of the hill, mechanical engine braking on a small displacement motor is not going to do the job holding back the load safely. Yes the hybrid system could offer some regen, but with a small battery pack, that's not going to be enough to regen on longer hills.
- Combined that with potentially smaller brakes hybrids usually get fitted with...
- The LC250 smaller diff is not going to put up with larger loads long term.

Towing heavier loads is not where it will compete with the HD 200-series. The GX550 will do a better job, but HD 200-series may do it best.

- It may be significantly more efficient than the v8 under load. The only reference I've seen is that the turbo 4 was about 80% more efficient (3.5mpg vs 6.2mpg) vs the 1GR up Eisenhower pass. Need a test to know. Could also be worse.

- the 5.7 isn't great for engine braking. It's not worthless - but it's not very useful in my experience. I'm not sure how the 4cyl is, but it may be even less useful. The hybrid *should* make it a lot better. But - Toyota chose not to do it. Not sure why.

- I think the LC200 are 340/345mm vs 335/335mm on the 250. Slightly smaller on the 250.

- Not sure about the 8.2. It's smaller. Should be a 9.5 - but I've yet to see stock 8.2 failure. Maybe it's okay? I'll change my mind if I ever see an 8.2 fail. (I know of one 8.2 that broke ring gear teeth, but it was aftermarket gears).

There’s no replacement for displacement when it comes to using engine braking on the descent. The 4 popper is not a heavy duty engine to use for towing anything substantial. It will haul your small u-haul or a small boat, but beyond that, it’a not the right tool for the job. There’s a reason why Toyota limited the 250 towing to 6k lbs.

This goes back to the 250 not being the swiss army knife of utility that the 200 series offers.

200 > 250 in almost every aspect.

To argue the 250 engine is a better towing engine than the 200 is laughable.

I don't know enough about the engine braking on the 2.4 to compare. The 5.7 isn't great for engine braking. In terms of midsize SUVs - sure, it's probably better than most small NA v6s and 4cyls.

The 4cyl is significantly more robust on the bottom end than the 3UR. It's a smaller displacement engine obviously, but it's built like a diesel. It may last longer under heavy load. May not. Still TBD on that front. It is definitely more robust build internally though.

 

[2021 LC200]

I was thinking about this and laughing that you could tow at 4-5k rpms all day long.

What I mean of course is that it would not hurt this NA big block engine. Even a long climb would be say 30 to 45 min and that is it.

The transmission with a cooler in the 200 series (assume the 250 has as well) could be the reason you need to back off. Seems that is more so of an issue for the 250 series based on reviews I have seen.

 

[Jetboy]

What I mean of course is that it would not hurt this NA big block engine. Even a long climb would be say 30 to 45 min and that is it.

The transmission with a cooler in the 200 series (assume the 250 has as well) could be the reason you need to back off. Seems that is more so of an issue for the 250 series based on reviews I have seen.

I don't know the difference between the AE80F in the LC200 and the L580F in the LC250. The LC250 obviously has a more peak torque, but less continuous power so I don't know how Toyota would modify them or if they are even the same basic unit. I also don't know if the hybrid version L580F has the same issues as the AL80F has been having in the non-hybrids.

I haven't heard of transmission temps as an issue on the 200 other than some obscure sand situations. Not on the highway. I've never seen transmission temp spikes or heat soaking on my AB60F version regardless of what I do to it.