For quality brands I would also look at Outdoors RV. We have the Black Rock which is the backcountry oriented (least expensive) of their line and the fit and finish is top notch. The welds are clean, 4 season rated, bumper is part of the frame so I have a 2” receiver for bikes and cargo tray. The only down side is they are heavier than others of comparable size due to the heavier duty build. As I said we had a airstream before this one and a Class A whinne before that.
Do you tow an Airstream?
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I concur with everything that Geoff said as that is also the way we approached it - our second time around.
One thing to be aware of is that a number of manufacturers do most of their manufacturing in about 100 miles of each other in the midwest. I think Indiana or thereabouts. They tend to trade a lot of people back and forth. Their look and quality tends to be very similar. (Not generally the best.)
Also, when you look at forums you will of course see the issues. And a common refrain throughout the industry (even Airstreams) is that quality control can be disappointing. Of course its better with some brands but none of them are perfect. Geoff's point about speed of assembly is part of this problem. The other is that you are essentially shaking your "tiny house" like a 7.5 earthquake for hours at a time. And finally, most of them (if not all) use the same brands of appliances. That's good and bad. It means that finding a repair person familiar with a Dometic or Norcold or Coleman or whatever is easier. It also means that the appliances may or may not be a differentiator.
One thing we did notice with our first trailer is that it looked "fancy" on the inside. But underneath the quality wasn't that great. Many of these manufacturers build their trailers to sell, not necessarily to last.
@coleAK, I have also heard good things about Outdoor RV. From what I understand, their focus is more on trailers that can go off pavement. They admit right up front that they are not intended to be "lightweight" trailers. Rather, they are supposedly build with stronger, yet heavier, parts. But I haven't experienced one.
I have also heard of people who have chosen to go with an Artic Fox over a Lance.
For a solid, quality trailer that isn't an Airstream you should expect to pay >$30, likely more unless you're getting one off the lot or end of season and of course depending on size. And they all have their issues. Even Airstreams. Both Airstream and Lance are slung low to make for better towing. Some people don't like that as it can be problematic when going off pavement. Slides are awesome but they can sometimes be problematic. It depends on the quality of the design and manufacturer and if you take care of it.
And, yes, trailers require a fair bit of care. And they can be abused. My financial advisor loves to hunt. So he buys a used trailer then takes it up in the woods during hunting season on some roads that I wouldn't take my LC on. Trailers last him about 2 years if that.
As for quality issues, I talked to someone camped next to us a couple weeks ago who had a brand new 5th wheel. I think it was a Surveryor if they make those. Can't remember. But the story he told me is symptomatic of the industry. They had had this 5th wheel for about a month. Only camped twice. Always drove on pavement. Fan stopped working. Water pump issue. His niece was sitting on the inside looking at the windows on the slideout and noticed that she could see light around the outside of the window frame. A similar thing happened after they pulled in their slide. They could see light from the outside along the edges. No weather stripping or water protection. No of course these things can be fixed under warranty but warranties are a hassle and typically only good for a year. The deeper issue is that some of these things are treated with a "that's just the way it is" attitude by dealerships. I know this sounds discouraging. But best to go into it with your eyes open. Demand/do a thorough inspection before accepting delivery (there are Pre Delivery Inspection lists out there on most of the owner forums.) For the first couple trips go somewhere close (local state park, etc.) and try everything just to see if it works. It also helps to have a bit of a handyman skillset. And, finally, be patient. Things will happen whether it is with the trailer or the "oops" that we all do when using these things.
Finally, there is a HUGE amount of personal preference that matters. Lance makes 4 models in a very similar size and price range to what Geoff and I have. One (Geoff's) has bunks in the back which is great if you have kids or need the storage. One has an outdoor kitchen and an electric fireplace/infotainment center (yes, they all have infotainment centers - usually with really bad systems) between the up front sleeping space and the rearward "living" space and kitchen. Two of them have the bathroom in the middle with the sleeping space up front. But one puts big windows and a sofa in the back while the other (ours) has the kitchen in the back and puts the sofa/window on the side opposite the dinette. (The dinette is a 3' slideout on ours but on the one with the windows in the back it is only 2' and has a smaller table.) Different floorplans can make a huge difference to living in them. Going to an RV show and pretending like you're living in one is a good idea.
Or just get an offroad trailer with a large RTT and you'll have a lot less things that can go wrong. And your "floorplan" because your campsite.
As far as forums:
One thing to be aware of is that a number of manufacturers do most of their manufacturing in about 100 miles of each other in the midwest. I think Indiana or thereabouts. They tend to trade a lot of people back and forth. Their look and quality tends to be very similar. (Not generally the best.)
Also, when you look at forums you will of course see the issues. And a common refrain throughout the industry (even Airstreams) is that quality control can be disappointing. Of course its better with some brands but none of them are perfect. Geoff's point about speed of assembly is part of this problem. The other is that you are essentially shaking your "tiny house" like a 7.5 earthquake for hours at a time. And finally, most of them (if not all) use the same brands of appliances. That's good and bad. It means that finding a repair person familiar with a Dometic or Norcold or Coleman or whatever is easier. It also means that the appliances may or may not be a differentiator.
One thing we did notice with our first trailer is that it looked "fancy" on the inside. But underneath the quality wasn't that great. Many of these manufacturers build their trailers to sell, not necessarily to last.
@coleAK, I have also heard good things about Outdoor RV. From what I understand, their focus is more on trailers that can go off pavement. They admit right up front that they are not intended to be "lightweight" trailers. Rather, they are supposedly build with stronger, yet heavier, parts. But I haven't experienced one.
I have also heard of people who have chosen to go with an Artic Fox over a Lance.
For a solid, quality trailer that isn't an Airstream you should expect to pay >$30, likely more unless you're getting one off the lot or end of season and of course depending on size. And they all have their issues. Even Airstreams. Both Airstream and Lance are slung low to make for better towing. Some people don't like that as it can be problematic when going off pavement. Slides are awesome but they can sometimes be problematic. It depends on the quality of the design and manufacturer and if you take care of it.
And, yes, trailers require a fair bit of care. And they can be abused. My financial advisor loves to hunt. So he buys a used trailer then takes it up in the woods during hunting season on some roads that I wouldn't take my LC on. Trailers last him about 2 years if that.
As for quality issues, I talked to someone camped next to us a couple weeks ago who had a brand new 5th wheel. I think it was a Surveryor if they make those. Can't remember. But the story he told me is symptomatic of the industry. They had had this 5th wheel for about a month. Only camped twice. Always drove on pavement. Fan stopped working. Water pump issue. His niece was sitting on the inside looking at the windows on the slideout and noticed that she could see light around the outside of the window frame. A similar thing happened after they pulled in their slide. They could see light from the outside along the edges. No weather stripping or water protection. No of course these things can be fixed under warranty but warranties are a hassle and typically only good for a year. The deeper issue is that some of these things are treated with a "that's just the way it is" attitude by dealerships. I know this sounds discouraging. But best to go into it with your eyes open. Demand/do a thorough inspection before accepting delivery (there are Pre Delivery Inspection lists out there on most of the owner forums.) For the first couple trips go somewhere close (local state park, etc.) and try everything just to see if it works. It also helps to have a bit of a handyman skillset. And, finally, be patient. Things will happen whether it is with the trailer or the "oops" that we all do when using these things.
Finally, there is a HUGE amount of personal preference that matters. Lance makes 4 models in a very similar size and price range to what Geoff and I have. One (Geoff's) has bunks in the back which is great if you have kids or need the storage. One has an outdoor kitchen and an electric fireplace/infotainment center (yes, they all have infotainment centers - usually with really bad systems) between the up front sleeping space and the rearward "living" space and kitchen. Two of them have the bathroom in the middle with the sleeping space up front. But one puts big windows and a sofa in the back while the other (ours) has the kitchen in the back and puts the sofa/window on the side opposite the dinette. (The dinette is a 3' slideout on ours but on the one with the windows in the back it is only 2' and has a smaller table.) Different floorplans can make a huge difference to living in them. Going to an RV show and pretending like you're living in one is a good idea.
Or just get an offroad trailer with a large RTT and you'll have a lot less things that can go wrong. And your "floorplan" because your campsite.
As far as forums:
- Forest River has a number of brand/model specific owner forums.
- There is an Airstream forum called Airforums. (I used a great thread on there about the ProPride hitch we have.)
- For Lance there is a forum called Lance Owners of America. But beware. They tend to think that everything should be towed with a truck.
I don't yet own a LC, but I can maybe be somewhat useful in this thread, as I've towed a 28' Airstream for roughly 6 years. Our unit has a dry weight of around 6000# and can max out at 7600#. I initially towed it -- for one trip -- with a 2008 Chevrolet Tahoe 2WD with towing package. I believe the max towing capacity was 7500#, and I was using a weight-distributing hitch. The Tahoe was on stock highway Michelins. We towed roughly 150 miles, and it was white-knuckle driving the entire way. I had two toddlers in the back seat and legitimately considered turning around after about 30 miles. Crosswinds and 18-wheelers really were pushing me all over the road. Even though the car was rated to pull the trailer, I did not feel safe. I was unable to really drive over about 55-60mph (even though the speed limit was 70) and that further added to my stress as it created a lot of havoc around me as people fought to get around me.
The Tahoe had a 5.7L V8 and I'm guessing a roughly analagous wheelbase to a LC (maybe even a bit longer, I'm not going to google it). Anyway, when I got home I decided to buy a 3/4-ton Suburban with a 6.0L V8, longer wheelbase, and E-rated tires. I also bought a ProPride hitch, which is similar to a Hensley and is a premium anti-sway, weight-distributing hitch that helps you tow a bumper pull trailer with a similar feel to a fifth wheel as it "projects" the pivot point basically into the bed of your truck/SUV.
Long story short, it was the best decision I ever made. We've been running this setup for five years and the added weight of the tow vehicle, added grunt of the engine, added wheelbase, better hitch, and stouter tires have made all the difference. I can now tow with one hand on the wheel and can go 75mph with no issues.
This isn't to say you can't tow a 6000# trailer with an LC that's rated for 8000+#, but I'm just not sure how great it's going to feel based on my experience. I'm sure you could easily yank around some of the shorter/lighter models with ease, though, but don't underestimate the importance of tires/wheelbase/hitch -- it's not all about the engine.
We're likely to upgrade to a 30' Airstream in the next year or so, as I now have three kids and would like a bunkhouse setup. I would LOVE to be able to buy a LC and pull it, but I think that's pushing the limits. We're likely going to have to hang on to our 3/4-ton Suburban, as it's really the only practical solution for a family of five with a dog to pull a trailer with an SUV (unless you want to buy a used Excursion).
The Tahoe had a 5.7L V8 and I'm guessing a roughly analagous wheelbase to a LC (maybe even a bit longer, I'm not going to google it). Anyway, when I got home I decided to buy a 3/4-ton Suburban with a 6.0L V8, longer wheelbase, and E-rated tires. I also bought a ProPride hitch, which is similar to a Hensley and is a premium anti-sway, weight-distributing hitch that helps you tow a bumper pull trailer with a similar feel to a fifth wheel as it "projects" the pivot point basically into the bed of your truck/SUV.
Long story short, it was the best decision I ever made. We've been running this setup for five years and the added weight of the tow vehicle, added grunt of the engine, added wheelbase, better hitch, and stouter tires have made all the difference. I can now tow with one hand on the wheel and can go 75mph with no issues.
This isn't to say you can't tow a 6000# trailer with an LC that's rated for 8000+#, but I'm just not sure how great it's going to feel based on my experience. I'm sure you could easily yank around some of the shorter/lighter models with ease, though, but don't underestimate the importance of tires/wheelbase/hitch -- it's not all about the engine.
We're likely to upgrade to a 30' Airstream in the next year or so, as I now have three kids and would like a bunkhouse setup. I would LOVE to be able to buy a LC and pull it, but I think that's pushing the limits. We're likely going to have to hang on to our 3/4-ton Suburban, as it's really the only practical solution for a family of five with a dog to pull a trailer with an SUV (unless you want to buy a used Excursion).
I think most in this thread know that I tow an Airstream 27FB model with my LX570. Funny thing in Airstreams lineup is that the 27FB is actually 1" longer than the AS 28 model. So for all intents and purposes, they're equivalent is size and weight.
I've towed extensively with my LX570 and my experience tells me its absolutely up for the job, having towed ~6k miles in the last year. As I'm in the west, going just about anywhere has major mountain ranges to deal with. I also just got back from Big Bear which is real deal tight and steep mountain roads, highly traffic'd by locals that are always up your yin-yang so you have to keep a decent pace. I've experienced the gamut of high 40+ mph desert winds, steep grades up and down at fwy and backroad speeds, and some good storms. She's absolutely stable and I don't hesitate to take her out on more interesting roads.
The 200-series actually has a smaller wheelbase than the Tahoe. 112.3" vs 116". I tow without a special pivot point projection setup. Just the standard issue Equalizer WD/AS hitch. I've never had instability, but I do pay attention to the major factors that support stability - proper setup of WD hitch with trailer level and sufficient WD applied, retain sufficient tongue weight in trailer (watch with overloading behind trailer axle), proper inflation pressures in TV and trailer tires (I do have LT tires on my LX for offroad reasons). Keeping the ball close and tight to the bumper is also one of the most important things one can do so I've actually chopped 3" off my stinger for that reason.
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I would be pleased and pleasantly surprised to find that it would tow my 28'.
There a quite a few if us that tow 6500-7000+lb TTs with a 200 series. I do around 5-7k miles a summer all over Alaska. I have a buddy with the same suburban as you he towes a 28’ ultralight that is 6’ longer but 1000lbs lighter than my Black Rock 22BHS. My LX570 (stock with a standard husky round bar WD) does as least as good as his rig and given the Burb is over 3’ longer he struggles in many camping areas that are a breeze for me. Also even though the 6L suburban is larger it weighs 300 lbs less than my stock 200. I had an airstream before our current TT and pulled it with a f250 diesel and then my LX for 1 summer. The only thing the truck did better was long straight distances at higher speeds (larger tank better MPG). And in many ways my LX is far superior for towing.
Last week fishing on the beach I pulled out a stick diesel excursion... that was attached to a 24’ camper.
Last week fishing on the beach I pulled out a stick diesel excursion... that was attached to a 24’ camper.
[QUOTE="coleAK, post: 11803781, member: 139418"
Last week fishing on the beach I pulled out a stick diesel excursion... that was attached to a 24’ camper.[/QUOTE]
You are my hero. I have dreamed of this simply while at hunting camp. Other guys in the group have Chevy and Ford trucks, and I always look forward to somebody getting stuck and needing a pull. Heehee.
Great detail in the rest of this thread. Thanks all.
Last week fishing on the beach I pulled out a stick diesel excursion... that was attached to a 24’ camper.[/QUOTE]
You are my hero. I have dreamed of this simply while at hunting camp. Other guys in the group have Chevy and Ford trucks, and I always look forward to somebody getting stuck and needing a pull. Heehee.
Great detail in the rest of this thread. Thanks all.
Not just tow, but tow it incredibly well. Secondary motions are nicely controlled. Imagine a Lexus ride - plush, quiet, serene, and utterly relaxed. That's not far off from reality when under tow, and I'm not correcting for cross winds, even when passing rigs. My Airstream is also lifted 3". Only thing I want is a larger gas tank.
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If you are buying new in the Airstream price range, you might check out an Oliver. Great build quality and tech. Essentially a bigger, more modern day version of the timeless Casita.
Oliver Travel Trailers | Luxury Fiberglass Travel Trailer | USA
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I’ve already reported my setup here (27’ Lance w/ average weight about 5700, ProPride hitch, E-rated tires on our 2016 LC). And, like everyone else, it does awesome. Did awesome a week or two ago when we drove from Grand Junction to Crescent, OR in 2 days. I don’t get much more than 65 for the sake of MPG but I don’t notice a difference in handling when it does creep higher. (My wife was having her first go at driving with the trailer and she was going 75 without even realizing it!). Another thing I did to show my wife how stable it is was to take both hands off the wheel. For 10 secs. Right down the center of the lane. No pull. (Though if you do this on a road that is not flat you may not get the same result.). BTW, my LC weights 6800 before adding the tongue weight of the trailer. About 7600 afterwards. (And, yes, I have a stronger suspension due to my 2” lift.). I also run 285/65 R18s.
Curious as to what kind of MPGs you get with your setup and typical range.
9.4MPG in mountainous areas and traveling and average of 60-65. To be honest, I haven't measured the range but I have the standard size tank. On back roads where I go 50-55 and if they are flatter then I can get ~11mpg.
For MPG towing my TT: going 55-60 mph 9.2-10.1 mpg, at 65-70 I drop down to 8-9 mpg. I’m in Alaska so never on a true “highway” like you would see in the lower 48. the best I have ever seen is 10.5 mpg but that was going 55 mph with a 30-40 mph tailwind. About range, it can be far between gas stations (like >100 miles) so I know where to fill up and when I go to Fairbanks I carry 10 extra gallons of fuel and when I go north of Fairbanks carry 20 gallons.
I usually get between 9.5-11 mpg depending on conditions and travel speed. Usually around 58-65mph to maximize efficiency. In CA, there's a 55mph speed limit for trailoring vehicles.
Per tank, this usually works out to be 220-250 miles range before range-o-meter puts me at 0.
I usually run pretty close to 0-20 miles range left on that meter, to maximize the working range of the tank. I know that the computer is very conservative, leaving 3-4 gallons left in the tank when it reports 0 range. This leaves a margin of ~30 miles additional range in the tank. And I carry a 3.5 gallon tote for extra margin. I don't intend to regularly resort to the gas in the tote, but it does allow me margin to run the main tank lower. So worst case scenario when run down to 0, I have another 60-80 mile range.
I would still love that 13 gallon aux tank. That would open up the ability to go almost 400 miles under tow!
BTW, these are all corrected numbers for my 33.2" AT tires, but they still cost me some efficiency. I'd imagine someone running stock tires could see 12 mpg under these same towing conditions.
Per tank, this usually works out to be 220-250 miles range before range-o-meter puts me at 0.
I usually run pretty close to 0-20 miles range left on that meter, to maximize the working range of the tank. I know that the computer is very conservative, leaving 3-4 gallons left in the tank when it reports 0 range. This leaves a margin of ~30 miles additional range in the tank. And I carry a 3.5 gallon tote for extra margin. I don't intend to regularly resort to the gas in the tote, but it does allow me margin to run the main tank lower. So worst case scenario when run down to 0, I have another 60-80 mile range.
I would still love that 13 gallon aux tank. That would open up the ability to go almost 400 miles under tow!
BTW, these are all corrected numbers for my 33.2" AT tires, but they still cost me some efficiency. I'd imagine someone running stock tires could see 12 mpg under these same towing conditions.
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Good point on the stock tires vs AT tires. I should have mentioned that when I am not towing, I average about 14.5 mph and I am a patient driver. But my truck weighs ~6300 lbs with just me in it. Sliders, rack, etc. Tires are just under 33" (285/65 KO2s) and are E-rated so considerably heavier than stock.
A bit of an update from the non-Airstream guy - I got anywhere from 6.5 to 7.5 mpg on my trip out west and back, typically going 70mph. My wife managed as high as 9.6 - not sure if she was going mostly downhill in OK or if she benefited by following an 18 wheeler for a couple hours. Interesting to note that on some stretches like from Carlsbad and Guadalupe Mountains to Big Bend I felt like maintaining 60mph was sometimes a chore and barely managed 6.5 mpg, continually downshifting to 3rd, whereas I was doing 75 in Illinois yesterday afternoon without any effort to stay in 4th gear and got closer to 7.5mpg.
I watched my transmission temp for much of the trip. It seemed to sit around 201F most of the drive - about 5F warmer than last year. Not sure if that was due to the heavier trailer than before or to the new steel bumper and winch affecting the air flow. I did see the pan temp get up near 210F regularly when dropping into 3rd on long uphill highway passes, and as high as about 235F (with the TC pushing 250F) on one very long mountain pass in CO on my way to the LCDC. I may look into mounting a secondary transmission cooler in the spring.
I also weighed my rig on the way home yesterday afternoon.
Steer axle: 3460
Drive axle: 4620
Trailer axles: 5200
Measured GVW: 8080 (3460 + 4620)
Est GVW fully loaded: 8350 to 8400 (8080 + 200 + ~70 to 120)
Measured Gross: 13,280 (3460 + 4620 + 5200)
Est Gross: 13,550 to 13,600
That was with a 45-50 gallons of gray and black water, which sits over or behind the axle. I did not have a chance to weigh empty or unhitched - we'd been in the car 2.5 days at that point and I was already pushing 7pm to get home. My wife and middle kid weren't in the truck, so add 200# to the above, plus a mostly empty cooler and an empty rotopax and I can see the total weight of my rig approaching 8400#.
The good news is that I'm under the GCWR of 14,400. The bad news is that I'm well over the GVWR of 7,385 by 1000#. While I have medium-duty rear springs (Tough Dog 240# coils), my fronts are still the 500# stock rating. The next time I do a suspension upgrade I will move to heavier fronts and rears - the truck towed and braked fine, but going over dips in the highway with the trailer in tow it was quite floaty - more like a Caddy than I'd like.
I watched my transmission temp for much of the trip. It seemed to sit around 201F most of the drive - about 5F warmer than last year. Not sure if that was due to the heavier trailer than before or to the new steel bumper and winch affecting the air flow. I did see the pan temp get up near 210F regularly when dropping into 3rd on long uphill highway passes, and as high as about 235F (with the TC pushing 250F) on one very long mountain pass in CO on my way to the LCDC. I may look into mounting a secondary transmission cooler in the spring.
I also weighed my rig on the way home yesterday afternoon.
Steer axle: 3460
Drive axle: 4620
Trailer axles: 5200
Measured GVW: 8080 (3460 + 4620)
Est GVW fully loaded: 8350 to 8400 (8080 + 200 + ~70 to 120)
Measured Gross: 13,280 (3460 + 4620 + 5200)
Est Gross: 13,550 to 13,600
That was with a 45-50 gallons of gray and black water, which sits over or behind the axle. I did not have a chance to weigh empty or unhitched - we'd been in the car 2.5 days at that point and I was already pushing 7pm to get home. My wife and middle kid weren't in the truck, so add 200# to the above, plus a mostly empty cooler and an empty rotopax and I can see the total weight of my rig approaching 8400#.
The good news is that I'm under the GCWR of 14,400. The bad news is that I'm well over the GVWR of 7,385 by 1000#. While I have medium-duty rear springs (Tough Dog 240# coils), my fronts are still the 500# stock rating. The next time I do a suspension upgrade I will move to heavier fronts and rears - the truck towed and braked fine, but going over dips in the highway with the trailer in tow it was quite floaty - more like a Caddy than I'd like.
arcteryx
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Who tows a 7000+ lb travel trailer with a 200?
arcteryx
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I tow with a 3/4 ton diesel. I would love to have a 200 to tow - spent hours trying to figure out how to make it work- but I just did not think it would tow my 31 foot adequately. It comes in about 6500 - 7000lbs I would say, need to go to the scale to confirm. Perhaps with a Hensley it would. So if someone is towing a longer trailer that is under tow cap, I'd like to hear.
