DIY Alignment? - Gyraline

[2021 LC200]

@TeCKis300

Be good to do at least the basic toe and camber measurements (i.e. no turn tables) and share. Should be no more than an hour or two. Please…

 

[TeCKis300]

@TeCKis300

Be good to do at least the basic toe and camber measurements (i.e. no turn tables) and share. Should be no more than an hour or two. Please…

Finally got a weekend off (from camping) this weekend. Planning to change all the rear control arms so alignment checks will be part of that. Standby.

 

[2021 LC200]

Our patience is running out...

 

[TeCKis300]

Okay, spent a little time on this today and have some interesting observations.

The phone is going to have everything to do with the Gyraline experience. I have both an Android Pixel 9 Pro XL and an Iphone 15. The Android app and/or gyro is trash for this application and might as well be measuring with a rock. The Iphone 15 on the other hand provides useful measurements.

Gyraline on the Android is v2.2.0, and is clunky and might as well be beta software. It also does not pass the check device calibration test.

Gyraline on the Iphone is v 2.22.04, and much smoother and refined to use. I don't even see a calibration function, at least for toe measurements. There is required calibration for camber. I haven't tried body or caster measurement.

Couple tries for toe measurement on the Pixel Pro XL gives widely different results. The best of which measure alignment at the following. I stopped after a couple tries as it clearly wasn't up to par.

Iphone 15 was within a .05 on each run and measures as follows. Which is very inline with what I expect and aligned the car to previously.

Camber measurements on the Iphone were equally solid

 

[2021 LC200]

@TeCKis300

Did you measure at least twice or three times with the iPhone the toe and camber?

Your results are odd;
- Negative toe front and rear (which will become more negative as you drive), while specs are front 0.0 to +0.2 and rear 0.0 (straight axle)
- Negative camber which should be zero rear (straight axle) and slightly positive front, although spec allows range from -0.4 to +1.2

Your thoughts beside throwing away that android phone... ?

 

[linuxgod]

@TeCKis300

Did you measure at least twice or three times with the iPhone the toe and camber?

Your results are odd;
- Negative toe front and rear (which will become more negative as you drive), while specs are front 0.0 to +0.2 and rear 0.0 (straight axle)
- Negative camber which should be zero rear (straight axle) and slightly positive front, although spec allows range from -0.4 to +1.2

Your thoughts beside throwing away that android phone... ?


View attachment 3903178

My alignments from a shop show a bit of negative camber and toe in the rear. So I don’t think there’s anything wrong with what @TeCKis300 found with the gyraline.

 

[2021 LC200]

My alignments from a shop show a bit of negative camber and toe in the rear. So I don’t think there’s anything wrong with what @TeCKis300 found with the gyraline.

View attachment 3903210

I hear you, hard to explain though with a straight axle. The tool does produce a cross camber and that is showing zero. Your thoughts?

 

[TeCKis300]

Got to refreshing the front end suspension with new UCAs and LCAs. Planned to have Gyraline in hand just for this occasion.

Setup on alignment plates on front axle and leveling ramps in the rear.

Gyraline has been updated (v2.22.07) since I've last used it and seems pretty polished. Looks like they acknowledge Android phones are not useful for alignment and are coming out with a Gyraline G2 with external precision sensors to support Android (at a much higher price point).

Apologies as I was in a rush and didn't get before and after specs as I realized later screen saves in app weren't working. Also adjusting alignment might be more difficult than most want to tackle as it's a fine balance of caster, camber, and toe. In a maxed out config like mine, I can eek out just enough in every parameter, but would be hard for someone starting from scratch to learn the app, learning the mechanics and art of alignment, and what to aim for in a 200-series.

That said, the app worked great for my needs. Took about 2 hours between 4 adjustment and measurements to get where I wanted to be. Then put her on the road for a 300 mile off-road trip. Nailed the alignment in one go it performed flawlessly to my amusement.

Caster on both front wheels measured 2.8 (which is fine on 37s as it's more about the length of mechanical trail)
Camber measured
-0.05 on left wheel
-0.04 on right wheel

Toe

EDIT: Adding more detail. Toe is the most important parameter and probably the hardest. Difficultly is that it's hard to establish a datum (reference point) that points truly straight and center relative to the vehicle. Versus camber and caster where it has absolute level as a datum (provided the ground is level). The app is best at comparing a previous surface to the next surface. Additional surfaces create tolerance stackup and drift.

There's two modes - body align (first pic below), and thrust align (second pic). Both are useful but helps to understand they use different references.

 

[bubbaZR2]

Do you (or anyone else) recommend a steering wheel lock when you're doing alignments?

 

[TeCKis300]

Do you (or anyone else) recommend a steering wheel lock when you're doing alignments?

I didn't feel like I needed it and my steering is dead nuts centered. I think just having awareness that as your adjusting, with enough force on the rack, is can move the wheel. In my adjustments, I didn't need to touch the wheel after measuring caster and centering.

I've since done an alignment on my wife's Tesla Model 3. It's even easier to move that wheel and again, didn't feel like I needed a wheel lock. Those tie rod ends feel like toys compared to the hardware on the 200-series.

What I did need to get tool wise was a giant 30mm combination wrench for the tie rods on the 200-series.

 

[bubbaZR2]

How tedious is the camber adjustment? Do you have to lift the front, loosen the bolts, adjust, tighten, lower back down, torque, test each time?

I still feel like this is over my head but I've had 3 shops strike out on aligning my Cruiser. I have the Bilstein kit with Ironman UCAs. It wanders down the highway, understeers really bad. The drive over Christmas was absolutely miserable. Just trying to figure out if I am capable of getting a good alignment myself or if this is over my head.

 

[Artie]

What type of Satan’s yoga is required to torque the LCA with it so close to the ground? Would ramps be helpful/possible?

This looks like a great tool for the box for those who have trust issues and some skills.

 

[napir]

How tedious is the camber adjustment? Do you have to lift the front, loosen the bolts, adjust, tighten, lower back down, torque, test each time?

I still feel like this is over my head but I've had 3 shops strike out on aligning my Cruiser. I have the Bilstein kit with Ironman UCAs. It wanders down the highway, understeers really bad. The drive over Christmas was absolutely miserable. Just trying to figure out if I am capable of getting a good alignment myself or if this is over my head.

So many shops are just trying to get to 'green' on their machines but it ends up being a pretty crappy ride with a lift, typically because they'd never run enough caster even if there was plenty to give. Have you tried an offroad shop that isn't full of tire monkeys just trying to get you out the door?

Regarding Gyraline, I'm seriously contemplating getting it as well, along with some alignment plates; I have too many cars I'm always futzing with to have the time or money to give to a shop and *hope* they do a decent job of it. It would be nice to refine my own specs and tweak as I see fit in a more empirical way.

 

[TeCKis300]

How tedious is the camber adjustment? Do you have to lift the front, loosen the bolts, adjust, tighten, lower back down, torque, test each time?

I still feel like this is over my head but I've had 3 shops strike out on aligning my Cruiser. I have the Bilstein kit with Ironman UCAs. It wanders down the highway, understeers really bad. The drive over Christmas was absolutely miserable. Just trying to figure out if I am capable of getting a good alignment myself or if this is over my head.

Not hard per say and it's taking both lower LCA eccentrics and driven them outboard. Though it does take some mental dexterity which could be challenging for someone approaching this because there's no dedicated camber adjustment. It's a confluence of caster, camber, and toe all in the inner LCA eccentrics meaning adjusting one affects the other.

The order I would do this in:

1) Set caster by using the eccentrics in counter fashion to pull the LCA forward (more caster) or backward (less caster)

2) Set camber by using the eccentrics together to push the bottom of the tire out (more camber) or in (less camber)

3) Set toe with tie rod ends

Rinse, repeat. For someone new to this, helps to measure in between each change to understand it affects other parameters. That can be daunting while learning Gyraline.

A modified cruiser is going to want some tailoring from stock alignment parameters IMO. Larger tire sizes need less caster. Possibly more negative camber, especially a rig that's on aggressive offsets.

 

[TeCKis300]

What type of Satan’s yoga is required to torque the LCA with it so close to the ground? Would ramps be helpful/possible?

This looks like a great tool for the box for those who have trust issues and some skills.

This man knows.

37s definitely help with this task, and the 2" tall alignment plates make for enough room.

Probably impossible on a stock height cruiser as the torque wrench doesn't have enough swing room to get 207 ft lbs.

 

[Boston Mangler]

What type of Satan’s yoga is required to torque the LCA with it so close to the ground?

I am a large/strong fella and can confirm, this is not a good time

 

[TeCKis300]

So many shops are just trying to get to 'green' on their machines but it ends up being a pretty crappy ride with a lift, typically because they'd never run enough caster even if there was plenty to give. Have you tried an offroad shop that isn't full of tire monkeys just trying to get you out the door?

Regarding Gyraline, I'm seriously contemplating getting it as well, along with some alignment plates; I have too many cars I'm always futzing with to have the time or money to give to a shop and *hope* they do a decent job of it. It would be nice to refine my own specs and tweak as I see fit in a more empirical way.

Yes, exactly why I have this. Between the LX and a very lowered sports car, I'm particular about my alignments as it greatly affects handling and feel (to me). Track days and autox have taught me things I can't un-feel. I hate playing the game of nicely asking for specific alignment specs, them telling me things are good, go on a trip, or towing, and not being satisfied with alignment only to repeat the game.

Alignment sometimes is a compromise in use case as well. For example, on the LX, AHC high bring quite a bit of toe in and positive camber. I bias AHC N to have pretty much zero toe and slightly more negative camber to compensate, which also helps the tires from rolling over as easily when cornering. Granted AHC highway lowered will bring in a tad of toe out, but at speed and the higher aero load, the front tires will pull forward anyways pretty much zeroing out any toe out.

I'm surprised how good the correlation is between Gyraline measured alignment and road test feel. Measurement results are solidly repeatable. I only have the 0.05 degree accuracy. That tells me it's enough to get what I need.

With the quality of shop alignment tools, I'm surprise how poor the results sometimes are as they just get to green. They're not trying very hard, are monkeys with nice tools, or both.

 

[bubbaZR2]

Not hard per say and it's taking both lower LCA eccentrics and driven them outboard. Though it does take some mental dexterity which could be challenging for someone approaching this because there's no dedicated camber adjustment. It's a confluence of caster, camber, and toe all in the inner LCA eccentrics meaning adjusting one affects the other.

View attachment 4057356

View attachment 4057358

The order I would do this in:

1) Set caster by using the eccentrics in counter fashion to pull the LCA forward (more caster) or backward (less caster)

2) Set camber by using the eccentrics together to push the bottom of the tire out (more camber) or in (less camber)

3) Set toe with tie rod ends

Rinse, repeat. For someone new to this, helps to measure in between each change to understand it affects other parameters. That can be daunting while learning Gyraline.

A modified cruiser is going to want some tailoring from stock alignment parameters IMO. Larger tire sizes need less caster. Possibly more negative camber, especially a rig that's on aggressive offsets.

 

[TeCKis300]

Yeah, mental gymnastics.

It's one of those things that needs pictures, videos, and hands on. There's not a single great video in youtube university that puts it all together.

Here's some primers if you're really looking to do this

 

[Artie]

With the quality of shop alignment tools, I'm surprise how poor the results sometimes are as they just get to green. They're not trying very hard, are monkeys with nice tools, or both.

The vast majority of the shops are turn and burn, get it within spec and get to the next one and their training is probably minimal.

The shops with the experienced techs come at a premium and are fewer in number. I finally found one 1.5 hours away from me they are Cruiser specialist that have added alignments to their services. I’ll happily make that drive and pay that fee for that sort of attention to detail.

If I ever get a large enough space for a proper garage I’m throwing plenty of dead presidents at a lift, a good used hunter machine, and some good used tire mounting and balancing equipment.