Cylinder glazing with wrong API spec oil? (1 Viewer)

GTSSportCoupe

2LTE abuser
Joined
Mar 23, 2012
Messages
7,408
Location
Victoria, BC, Canada
One thing I've noticed with the 2LTE's, is the motors that have seen the most oil changes with the 'best' oil seem to have the most blow-by. These motors that I've seen have also had a lot of light duty operation, such as short trip city driving, and idling in heavy traffic.

I recently read a thread in the Hilux Surf forum (quoted post below) regarding oil for these old diesels. I suspect this could apply to the 1HZ, 1PZ, 1HDT, 1KZ etc. also (same generation Toyota diesel engines).

This info got me thinking that perhaps using the wrong API spec oil for the conditions (light duty) have lead to a degree of cylinder bore glazing in many of these motors.

I've been using primarily Shell Rotella T4 15W40. I do oil changes every 3000km because of all the short cold driving I do. I've attached a picture below of how my engine looks inside. The motor has developed quite a bit of blowby (air movement out PCV or oil filler). And now I'm wondering if I should have been using a lower API oil and changing it less often.

I also recently bought a Hilux Surf that came with a huge wad of receipts. TONS of oil changes. Motor has been pampered. It has even more blow-by (again, air movement out PCV or oil filler).

Friend of mine recently bought a Prado LJ78 that had only seen long haul driving and long oil change intervals (mildly neglected). That engine had by far the LEAST blow-by of any 2LTE I've ever seen! He parted the truck out, and I bought the dirty old nasty short block to swap into my truck...LOL.

The fellow in the article recommended an API CF-4 spec oil (and no higher). Anyone know of an off the shelf oil that meets this spec?

"
Preferred Oil for 2LTE Engine:

The Rule:
Assuming your engine is in good working condition; an oil that meets and does not overly exceed the following minimum performance specifications and standards is the best oil for your engine according to the manufacturers recommendations (which by the way is):

Manufacturers minimum recommendation (1990 2LTE operating in Japanese service conditions):
- Winter: 10W-30 diesel engine oil with API rating of CD.
- Summer: 10W-40 diesel engine oil with API rating of CD.

(API: American Petroleum Institute)

But our vehicles operate in Australian conditions and better oils have been developed over the years.... Particularly oils for Japanese manufactured diesels which have specific lubrication requirements that differ from European and/or American manufactured diesels. So my interpretation of the theoretical best oil for protection of the 2LTE engine (manufactured between 1990 to 1994) is an oil that meets and does not exceed the following minimum requirements:

- 10W-40 to 15W-40 all seasons; mineral or synthetic
Why a heavier weight (thicker) oil than the Japanese recommendation? Because Australian temperatures are generally warmer than in Japan. There are exceptions offcourse.

- Compliant with API CF or CF-4 specifications.
Oils built to a higher specification than CF-4 (ie: CH-4, CG-4 and CI-4) may have too strong an additive package for the 2LTE (and possibly 1KZTE) engines manufactured between 1990 and 1994. A risk of using this oil is bore glazing for engines that do not see severe duty.
An example of an engine working under severe duty service conditions is a semi-trailer travelling from Brisbane to Perth fully loaded, or a Hilux Surf that does nothing but sit and idle in traffic all day. Service conditions between those two extremes generally represent normal duty service conditions.


- Compliant with JASO DH-1 specifications
Provides improved valve train protection for Japanese manufactured diesels, amongst other things.
(JASO: Japanese Automotive Standards Organisation).

"

Picture of my engine with the pan off. Too damn clean, and likely glazed bores. I'm pulling it out next week and putting in a different short block (the one I mentioned above that had no blow-by). Will pull apart my old short block to try and determine if glazing really is the problem.

sam_0348-jpg.1248624
 
Last edited:

GTSSportCoupe

2LTE abuser
Joined
Mar 23, 2012
Messages
7,408
Location
Victoria, BC, Canada
I'm reading into API specs now, and of course many of the old specs are now obsolete. Trying to make sense of it.

At the end of the day I think that short trip driving with lots of idling is not good for these old IDI turbo diesels.
 

IanB

SILVER Star
Joined
Jan 23, 2010
Messages
4,410
Location
Winnipeg, MB
Short trip driving with lots of idling isn't good for any engines. Have you tried sending a used oil sample out for testing? I'm running 5w40 Rotella T6 Synthetic with OEM filter, and an oil change interval of 10K kms (roughly 2X a year) in my 1HD-T, and the analysis from Blackstone suggests pushing the interval further (12K kms) if I wanted as everything checks out great.
 
Joined
Jun 13, 2005
Messages
3,517
Location
Centre of the universe
Glazed cylinder could be the source of blowby, but so can frozen rings. On engine break in lots of v8 guys go for the simple cheap oils with the least additives with the least critical wear components like calcium or zinc as it all makes it so much harder for the rings to get through the oil and wear onto the bore. After break in these oils are great mind you. Combine that with light duty in the first few thousand km and your set up for a high blowby engine. IMO Idling is guaranteed way to glaze a new engine.
 

GTSSportCoupe

2LTE abuser
Joined
Mar 23, 2012
Messages
7,408
Location
Victoria, BC, Canada
Glazed cylinder could be the source of blowby, but so can frozen rings. On engine break in lots of v8 guys go for the simple cheap oils with the least additives with the least critical wear components like calcium or zinc as it all makes it so much harder for the rings to get through the oil and wear onto the bore. After break in these oils are great mind you. Combine that with light duty in the first few thousand km and your set up for a high blowby engine. IMO Idling is guaranteed way to glaze a new engine.

I used some of that GM upper cylinder cleaner stuff in my motor. Followed the instructions to a t. Even did it twice. Made zero difference, so I don't think it's stuck/dirty rings.

I wonder if the original engine use of these motors in Japan from new sort of spells out how they will be the rest of their life. Or perhaps the oils used early in the life of the motor.

I've looked inside of a couple of these motors now. One that had a fair amount of blow by (my original motor) and the one with no blow by (one I bought). Both looked virtually the same inside with clearly visible hone marks still.

It's a mystery.
 

GTSSportCoupe

2LTE abuser
Joined
Mar 23, 2012
Messages
7,408
Location
Victoria, BC, Canada
Short trip driving with lots of idling isn't good for any engines. Have you tried sending a used oil sample out for testing? I'm running 5w40 Rotella T6 Synthetic with OEM filter, and an oil change interval of 10K kms (roughly 2X a year) in my 1HD-T, and the analysis from Blackstone suggests pushing the interval further (12K kms) if I wanted as everything checks out great.

No I have not had an oil analysis done. Might be worth it. I did do BEB for the fun of it in my old motor. The bearings came out looking almost brand new. So there was not much wear at all there. I wonder if there is a way to see signs of blow-by or glazing in an oil analysis?
 

mudgudgeon

SILVER Star
Joined
Dec 17, 2007
Messages
4,666
Location
Sydney, Australia
When the 200 series with the new v8 turbo diesel was first released, they had a huge number of them come back with major oil consumption issues.
Chatting to a buddy of mine who is a mechanic, and had a 200 series, his view was that they were so torquey, that your typical soccer mum, or grey nomad never ran then at much more than an idle.
His own truck made regular long trips towing farm equipment and was driven hard from day 1. His never used a drop of oil.
He reckoned that most just never got run in properly, and rings didn't bed in.

Be interesting to see what you find when you tear down that engine
 

GTSSportCoupe

2LTE abuser
Joined
Mar 23, 2012
Messages
7,408
Location
Victoria, BC, Canada
When the 200 series with the new v8 turbo diesel was first released, they had a huge number of them come back with major oil consumption issues.
Chatting to a buddy of mine who is a mechanic, and had a 200 series, his view was that they were so torquey, that your typical soccer mum, or grey nomad never ran then at much more than an idle.
His own truck made regular long trips towing farm equipment and was driven hard from day 1. His never used a drop of oil.
He reckoned that most just never got run in properly, and rings didn't bed in.

Be interesting to see what you find when you tear down that engine

I think you've nailed it. I'm beginning to think that poor ring seating occurs closer to the beginning of the life of the vehicle.

I should note that none of these engines I've seen let noticeable oil past the rings. However they do blow oil mist out the crank case ventilation; and it definitely does add up after a while.
 

Vossie

#thecrazycruiserman
Joined
Sep 9, 2013
Messages
987
Location
Harare, Zimbabwe
chatting to my cousin who was trained as a cummins heavy plant mech, he said number 1 cause of all engine problems is incorrect engine break in.

as we all know, diesels love to be worked, and worked pretty hard. my father has 1999 Gibraltar spec Hilux with a 3L. the first 120,000kms of its life were with an aid agency in the bush, where servicing was minimal and the load was hard. we've had it since then, and what with it being a 3L, you have 2 throttle positions, on and off. so you naturally work it harder. the result? it now has 590,000kms on it, same head (even after breaking the timing belt) and it only blows a tiny bit of smoke when shes cold at initial start up. you can rev the nuts off her and no black smoke comes out the other end.

point of the story? work a diesel hard, look after it, keep its oil clean and it will look after you. that hilux is one of only 3 cars that i know i can jump in and drive to cape town and back with no issues. sure i may not get there fast, but i will definitely get there
 
Joined
Jul 22, 2003
Messages
18,329
Location
Perth Western Australia
Diesels need to be worked hard, they are happiest at 90% max power. But this doesn't mean high rpms .
The 1VD FTV takes most owners about 20000klms to be run in and stop using oil. It was a big discussion point on Australian forums when they were 1st released.
Toyota make a special break in oil that is in new landcruisers when you 1st get them. It is drained out at the 500klm service and replaced with normal oil. The break in oil is "rougher" , I wonder how it would go on old engine with glazed bores?

The Holden Team at Bathurst race track poured Ajax pot scouring abrasive down the carb of their Monaro 350ci chevs at 5000 rpms to get the rings to seat before the race. They won
 

GTSSportCoupe

2LTE abuser
Joined
Mar 23, 2012
Messages
7,408
Location
Victoria, BC, Canada
Diesels need to be worked hard, they are happiest at 90% max power. But this doesn't mean high rpms .
The 1VD FTV takes most owners about 20000klms to be run in and stop using oil. It was a big discussion point on Australian forums when they were 1st released.
Toyota make a special break in oil that is in new landcruisers when you 1st get them. It is drained out at the 500klm service and replaced with normal oil. The break in oil is "rougher" , I wonder how it would go on old engine with glazed bores?

The Holden Team at Bathurst race track poured Ajax pot scouring abrasive down the carb of their Monaro 350ci chevs at 5000 rpms to get the rings to seat before the race. They won

I'd try that Toyota break in oil for sure. I've heard of the Ajax thing too, although many people recommend Bon Ami Cleanser instead as it is finer. I'd try it on my old short block, except I'm a little worried about what impact it would have on the valve guides and what happens when it gets into the oil.
 
Joined
Jul 22, 2003
Messages
18,329
Location
Perth Western Australia
I'd try it on my old short block, except I'm a little worried about what impact it would have on the valve guides and what happens when it gets into the oil.

It was a bit tongue in cheek and I think they changed the oil before the race. And you would probably need to flush the engine thoroughly as well. I think the abrasive material is ground pumice
 
Joined
Jun 13, 2005
Messages
3,517
Location
Centre of the universe
What racers do to their engine I doubt will get you very far in real life. The abrasive trick has been around for a coons age. If you feel like rebuilding your engine every year and don't have the time to break your rings in that make sence. However, who wants to rebuild their engine every year? According to that logic it would make sence not to run air filters and many racers don't. Longevity is not the goal. I value longevity so I don't pour abrasives into my engine and I run an air filter. Engine break in has been covered before. I'd give a word of caution when discussing stuff like this cus giving it a feel like it's "normal" could lead thae average guy astray as there are lurkers on the forum who might not know better and give what you guys just mentioned a try.

TheDieselStop.Com - www.thedieselstop.com
 

GTSSportCoupe

2LTE abuser
Joined
Mar 23, 2012
Messages
7,408
Location
Victoria, BC, Canada
I would only try it because I have a new short block on the engine stand anyhow. More of a curiosity learning experience opportunity. Anyone who reads this on the web and tries it just cause....well....I agree with Rosco. :)

Not sure if it was this forum or somewhere else, but I did read that Caterpillar provides a special powder to add to the intake of their diesel motors in the case that the rings did not break in properly on brand new engines. So there probably is a way to do it right.... Apparently they add the powder, run it for a bit, change the oil, and then run it for a couple weeks. They will repeat if needed.
 
Joined
Jun 13, 2005
Messages
3,517
Location
Centre of the universe
Wow. That is pretty cool, scary but cool. Never heard of such a thing from a mainstream company. Wonder how they keep it off the valve seats. It must be a weapon of last resort. That's like calling arty down on your own position.
 

mudgudgeon

SILVER Star
Joined
Dec 17, 2007
Messages
4,666
Location
Sydney, Australia
Wow. That is pretty cool, scary but cool. Never heard of such a thing from a mainstream company. Wonder how they keep it off the valve seats. It must be a weapon of last resort. That's like calling arty down on your own position.

Sounds crazy.
What's the alternative? If it's a big enough problem, I guess they're looking at a complete strip down, machining, rebuild etc, so maybe not a lot to lose?
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top Bottom