Crawl use techniques

[kcjaz]

I ran some pretty challenging trails this weekend that had some pretty steep climbs with large rocks and ledges combine with muddy and wet and deep ruts. I got stuck/stopped a couple times and had to be winched up and over. I didn’t use crawl because I had it in my head you have to be stopped to activate it which is not true. When I did get stopped I was hung up on lower shock mounts or RLCA mounts. I should have tried it then but really just didn’t think about it after the adrenaline rush of almost getting up and over.

The rigs that were successful all used momentum, lots of gas peddle and lockers. Most were built up 80s on 35 and more.

Would a good technique be to activate crawl at the bottom of the hill, select speed 5, then use the gas peddle driving normally but faster than crawl until you can’t and let crawl take over as you are getting stuck? You’d just take your foot off the gas as you felt your wheel spin was to much and maybe crawl could find the wheel with enough traction to get over the obstacle.

Is the worse thing that could happen that it just doesn’t work? What does crawl do when you rig is hard stop because you have steel hung up on a rock?

 

[CharlieS]

I mostly turn that all off. My opinion is that once you are hung up on a rlca, diff, axle, etc, there's not much more that's going to happen except a recovery. I think the best opportunity is to pick better lines (or get larger tires, lockers, etc.).

 

[kcjaz]

I mostly turn that all off. My opinion is that once you are hung up on a rlca, diff, axle, etc, there's not much more that's going to happen except a recovery. I think the best opportunity is to pick better lines (or get larger tires, lockers, etc.).

I agree. Bigger tires would have helped a lot. I think I had the lines but I couldn’t get my rear tires up and over the ledges. 7400 lbs is a lot to roll up a ledge. Part of me thinks I might have made it up and over with lockers or at least had a better shot at it because it felt like I would get almost over but then start spinning my wheels and then I’d slide to some hard contact position and be stuck. Crawl is similar to lockers but with a speed limitation. I’m just trying to figure out better ways to actually make it useful. I have seen post here that make the argument that with crawl, a 200 benefits less from lockers. I think that might be true in places like Moab but on Missouri or east cost type trails where you can get more mud and slippery clay soils, slow crawl isn’t going to beat a locker and momentum. I’m really just wondering if crawl can be better than no locker on these kind of trails.

I guess I’ll just have to try it next time. It may not help at all but I don’t think it will break anything to try.

 

[bloc]

Crawl/atrac is definitely better than no crawl and open diffs, but struggles to achieve the true transfer of 100% of torque to the wheel with traction. It tends to be jerky, trying to detect wheel spin, apply a certain amount of individual wheel brake, wait for a reaction and judge whether it needs more or less..

Vs simply having the diff be locked ensuring both tires on an axle spin the exact same speed.

But, crawl does some other things well too. Like not impede steering. Or the magic in soft sand.

Yes, use it when you think traction may be a challenge. If nothing else you’ll gain an understanding of what it can and cannot do.

 

[jrmudder92]

my last off roading trip I did I used crawl for the first time. I was highly impressed. Did better then my lockers in a few situations. Will be using it more.

 

[afgman786]

Everytime I've used it, it was after attempting normally multiple times and failing. You could just engage it after you get stuck (thats what I've done) or back up a little and engage it and let it do its thing.

But you're also right about east coast situation. Sometimes its just too slick for crawl to even do anything but I've been shocked by it twice now where I had no faith but was a hail mary and worked.

 

[jefo13]

I think your post-ride self reflection has you steering in the right direction. Crawl control and even MTS is underestimated often but they are impressive and are worth the try before spending money on traditional traction aids like lockers that for sure work but of course requires $$$

This short video is my favorite when trying to explain the magic behind Toyota’s traction aids (while not the focus of the video… crawl control combined with KDSS makes the lc200 very capable)
Crawl control vs open diff vs MTS

 

[CharlieS]

Doesn't hurt to try it. Crawl is definitely cool, but the terrain he describes "pretty steep climbs with large rocks and ledges combine with muddy and wet and deep ruts" as well as the question: "What does crawl do when you rig is hard stop because you have steel hung up on a rock?" Maybe I'm thinking of similar situations to what I've seen here out East, but once you are well and truly stuck on steel parts on rocks, stopped, you're probably not going anywhere unless you can shift weight, get good traction on wheels with ground contact, or something. These 200s are heavy! I could be wrong, but I don't think Crawl is going to get you unstuck from that if you are really stuck - I'm guessing this would call for traction boards, stacking rocks, high lift jack, comealong, winch, etc. Just my opinion, and always open to learning.

 

[kcjaz]

Doesn't hurt to try it. Crawl is definitely cool, but the terrain he describes "pretty steep climbs with large rocks and ledges combine with muddy and wet and deep ruts" as well as the question: "What does crawl do when you rig is hard stop because you have steel hung up on a rock?" Maybe I'm thinking of similar situations to what I've seen here out East, but once you are well and truly stuck on steel parts on rocks, stopped, you're probably not going anywhere unless you can shift weight, get good traction on wheels with ground contact, or something. These 200s are heavy! I could be wrong, but I don't think Crawl is going to get you unstuck from that if you are really stuck - I'm guessing this would call for traction boards, stacking rocks, high lift jack, come along, winch, etc. Just my opinion, and always open to learning.

yeah 200's are heavy. The first recovery we hooked my winch cable to the 80 that made it up before me. I didn't move and was dragging him back down. We chalked his wheels and tied him to the truck in front of him. I did use crawl in low speed with the winch cable attached. That seemed to work pretty well, but yeah it was the winch that pulled my rear LCA mount across the rock it was hung up on. After I got off the rock, crawl plus the wench worked great! They need to make a wench that works like Spiderman's web slingers. Pretty sure the 300 has that.

 

[bloc]

I think the idea is crawl may help you choose a line and stick with it vs using momentum and potentially ending up with metal on rock.

Some obstacles are just going to be too much for a given tire size and ground clearance..

 

[RT Cruiser]

I mostly turn that all off.

I've done a lot of trails in our stock '08 and never used crawl. I have 4lo engaged and the diff locked before proceeding onto a trail that demands it.

Would a good technique be to activate crawl at the bottom of the hill, select speed 5,...

The best technique for me is tire placement for all four tires, hand-shifting, using the hand-brake when needed, knowing how certain materials (sand, scree, flat rocks, etc.) move under the tires, using momentum correctly such as going up gnarly switchbacks, and trusting my instinct. I've turned away many times and have zero shame in doing so.

A calm, focused, and patient driver in an average 4x4 setup will be more successful than a scared or arrogant driver in a overkill setup. Never put all your reliance in your vehicle. I've seen far too many drivers on the trails with overkill rigs but are scared to death and/or shouldn't be on the trail. And don't forget about taking time to learn how weather patterns work, especially in the mountains. Go ask the Florida couple who went up Imogene and encountered a snow storm at the top. They attempted to go down via the Telluride trail. Not only are the fortunate their pricey Mercedes suv (which shouldn't be up there to begin with) didn't slide on the snow and off the edge of the switchback, but they are fortunate to have survived several days in the freezing weather before rescue came.

I won't trade my experience for the latest and greatest 4x4 rig.

 

[bloc]

Side note: does anyone else leave the CDL disengaged most of the time for less drivetrain binding and tighter turning, then only engage it when approaching difficult obstacles?

 

[RT Cruiser]

Side note: does anyone else leave the CDL disengaged most of the time for less drivetrain binding and tighter turning, then only engage it when approaching difficult obstacles?

It's what I usually do. Due to the fact I don't have real trail tires, I'm prone to engage the CDL before going up/down a steep section. Though the cruiser is very capable without CDL, the family tends to become a bit concerned when the tires slip. It’s easier for me when riders feel safe .

 

[kcjaz]

Side note: does anyone else leave the CDL disengaged most of the time for less drivetrain binding and tighter turning, then only engage it when approaching difficult obstacles?

Downhill and swish backs CDL off for sure or where I need to maneuver in tight situations.

I get, and agree with all the comments about picking better lines and not to only rely only on the tech and that and that lack of driver skill and experience can’t be made up for with gadgets. That said, my rig has a crawl mode that is not just a marketing gimmick. All I’m trying to learn here is when and how best to use it. Trying things with it and asking questions is how experience is gained.

All good input. Thanks.

 

[1world1love]

Ideally you would start out in crawl control and just let it do its thing. You really don't need to (and maybe shouldn't?) touch the accelerator or brake as it is meant to control those things on it's own. As long as you choose a good line, CC will probably get you up.

One benefit of CC in the LX is that it will give you another inch of height which can be the difference between getting hung up in the first place. Having said all of that, I also never really use CC much and only engage CDL when in mud. I have used CC to get over some things and through some things, and it is pretty remarkable, but not necessary for most trails I do.

And not to minimize RT Cruiser's point above, which has some value, but I think it is fine to use the tools available to you. Knowing when and how is the key and you only gain that knowledge with experience. If you never use CC, then you never know how it can help you (or hurt you). Getting home with minimal damage is the goal, however that happens. Don't be afraid to use CC because you think it will affect your trail cred. And to be totally clear, I DO NOT think that it is what RT Cruiser is saying, but there are folks who scoff at CC as some kind of gimmick and it imost certainly is not. It is another tool, nothing more, nothing less.

@TheGrrrrr has a video of @Gregtoy144 going up "The Wall" on Poughkeepsie Gulch at LCDC using CC and it is pretty impressive considering all the people who did not make it up the wall that day.

Events/Trails - LCDC 7 - Summer 2021 Official Thread

Are 200s doing the wall on Poughkeepsie or forced to take the bypass?

forum.ih8mud.com

 

[RT Cruiser]

And not to minimize RT Cruiser's point above, which has some value, but I think it is fine to use the tools available to you. Knowing when and how is the key and you only gain that knowledge with experience. If you never use CC, then you never know how it can help you (or hurt you). Getting home with minimal damage is the goal, however that happens. Don't be afraid to use CC because you think it will affect your trail cred. And to be totally clear, I DO NOT think that it is what RT Cruiser is saying, but there are folks who scoff at CC as some kind of gimmick and it imost certainly is not. It is another tool, nothing more, nothing less.

Totally agree. When anti-cruisers make fun of it to me, I tell them to google cruiser/taco buried in sand at the beach with crawl control. I tell them CC is like a free tow truck. CC is a great tool. All of us should know how to use it.

There's many ways to use CDL, CC, 4Lo, etc. Find what is best for you, with your tires, per the trail and trail conditions, and the weight you have in your rig.

Applause to @kcjaz for asking questions here so we can all learn.

 

[Lester did that]

I almost never use the crawl control. Generally just go thru the gears especially up hill. It's all rocks and thin slick mud around me. But if I get crossed up then yes crawl control really helps. Also on the beach or any sand/mush crawl control is amazing. It can/will dig you out as long as you don't get it completely bogged down to the frame. It works like it should. It gets you unstuck. But as stated above just knowing your vehicle and picking the right lines can avoid a recovery. I'm of the opinion don't rely on tech but if you have it no sense in not knowing how it works. Add it to your arsenal. Techno-Fundamentalist.

 

[bloc]

We can pick apart the mistakes here in the no-crawl scenario, but this is a decent demonstration of capability. Edit: and why a winch can be useful.



All of this is convincing me I need to spend more time on trails learning about this stuff.

 

[kcjaz]

All of this is convincing me I need to spend more time on trails learning about this stuff.

Exactly. It also shows what can happen quickly if you slide off the line you were going for especially when you “send it” and don’t make it.