Coolant "drain and fill" vs. "flush"

[SteveLCetc]

I talked to a local shop I use and trust today. They said they would do the flush for $89.95 as opposed to Toyota's quote of $138.95. I mentioned I would want to bring 2 gallons of Toyota red with me for the job. The guy told me what they use is identical stuff (Valvoline) I believe. Any reason to pay more at the dealer?

I went to a local shop that did it for 89.95. (Jiffy Lube) They used the green stuff. Then, when I went to drain some out to add some Water Wetter:
http://www.redlineoil.com/products_coolant.asp
I noticed it was still mostly red after they were done. I'm not sure what the difference is between the Toyota red and the Valvoline green. Does anybody know? ("They're just different" doesn't count).

Anyway, I'm thinking about getting my money back and buying one of those little Prestone kits where you tie into the heater hose, and doing it myself. I've had pretty good luck with those before, but since I just bought this I figured I'd get it done with a commercial system.

Also, since water is a better coolant than antifreeze, I'm mixing it at 25% antifreeze, which should give me better cooling and protection to, I think, about 10 deg - good until the first freeze, when I'll boost the percentage. Comments?

 

[acf]

Water freezes at a much higher temp. than ethylyne glycol which could be a problem.

Edit: Just noticed you said until the "first freeze". nm

 

[Beowulf]

Steve,

>> I'm not sure what the difference is between the Toyota red <<
>> and the Valvoline green. Does anybody know? <<

Why yes, we do. This was discussed in this thread a few months ago.

I'll summarize information supplied by C-Dan and Gumby:

The Toyota "Red" label reads as follows:
=========================

Ethylene Glycol (107-21-1)
Diethylene Glycol (111-46-6)
Distilled Water (7732-18-5)
Organic Acid Salt (532-32-1) [aka Sodium Benzoate]
Hydrated Inorganic Salt (1310-58-3) [ Potassium Hydroxide in Ethanol ]

The Prestone Zerex label reads as follows:
===============================

Ethylene Glycol (107-21-1),
Diethylene Glycol (111-46-6),
Dipotassium Phosphate (7758-11-4),
Distilled Water (7732-18-5),
Corrosion Inhibitors,
Silicone Silicate,
Defoamers,
dyes.

"Not quite sure what all of that means, but it is not the same stuff." D-


Peak Extended Life
=============

Ingredients:
Ethylene GLycol (107-21-1)
Diethyline Glycol ( 111-46-6)
Water
Sodium Benzoate (532-32-1) [aka Organic Acid Salt]

The Peak packaging says it is:
Silicate free,
Nitrate free,
Phosphate free and
Borate free.


1310-58-3 is Potassium Hydroxide in Ethanol and the MSDS says it's pretty nasty stuff. Poison, highly flammable, and causes blindness if you splash it in your eyes.

Add eye protection to the "How To Change Coolant" posts!!!
-B-

 

[Riley]

One thing that I am still awfully confused about after reading and re-reading all the flush posts and also all the awesome posts on the FAQ that E started, is whether or not the thermostat should be removed for the flush? My thinking is that if the thermostat is not removed, the engine block would be subjected to several hot spots where there is no coolant until the thermostat opens again. Can someone share? Thanks.

I'd pull the thermostat and replace with a new one and new gasket. They are pretty cheap compared to the coolant and if your truck has a lot of miles on it, it's good PM.

Also I can't remember who commented that it all sounds above their abilities.... don't worry. E's FAQ is good detail but it's a little overkill with the gauge and such. Just buy some 5/8" hose and the Pretone Tee thing. DON'T leave this stuff on (as they suggest) just careful pulling the OEM hose and temperarily add the Tee. Drain at the block plug and the rad and drain and flush with tap water, then drain again ect....

Having someone else do this, you'll never know if they did the heaters and such and you'll never see how much sludge they got out. It's really easy to do. While I found E's write up good.... it was a little more than what's required.

 

[e9999]

Wow, that's awesome stuff e9999. Gotta admit it's beyond my abiities at this time though. Are the processes you went through comparable or more effective than what the dealer would do? They have some sort of flushing machine IIRC?

AC, I would guess that the dealers, Jiffy etc will not do anywhere close to what we can do. I don't they they would backflush everything. Certainly not heater and rad separately. I imagine they would just connect the flushing machine and run some water through. Which is not any different that we can do with a hose. And it remains to be seen where they would put the connection (which could well result in the gunk being driver deeper into the cores). As a result I would not expect them to do the flush anywhere as well as we would (witness the comment by Steve suggesting they had left a lot of old stuff in - not good). Where they do have a big advantage, however, is if they have a deionized water source which would allow you to flush and leave all DI water in all of 15 mins compared to the several hours it took me to refill fully (to 1%) with DI water.

Comments on my big thread: don't sweat the gauges, it's not necessary. I meant to try and do it all, just pick and choose what you want to do.

Steve: what's with the 25% futzing around? Just do 50% fur cryin' out loud!

E

 

[e9999]

oh, and Steve and all, I ended up using only one Tee out of the Prestone kit, and the rad cap attachment and all didn't fit so you end up wasting 80% of the kit. You might want to just go buy the one Tee at Autozone or someplace like that. You'll save enough $$ for a or 2 or 3...
E

 

[Rookie2]

I followed the pre-E9999 flush thread when I did mine last winter, but don't have it here on hand. It "seemed" much simpleler (sp?) than Eric's version. I'm not clear if it get's it as good though..something about backflushing IIRC.


Rookie2

 

[e9999]

guys, I don't get all this about my description being overwhelming or somethin'. I meant it to be a detailed description of what I did and I tried to explain why I did what I did so it becomes clearer what everything is supposed to do. Basically trying to give you tools to make informed decision as to the likely outcomes. Didn't mean to scare anybody.

You can do as little or as much as you want. Just decide what goal you want to achieve and do that part.

But be aware that you won't get a full result for a quick job. Basically, what I did is what I think gave me the results I wanted to achieve (including some testing admittedly). Next time it'll be faster but I won't cut many corners. My overall conclusion is that it simply takes some work and time to get all the old stuff out. Your decision is basically how much you are willing to leave in and adjust the procedure accordingly.

just my 2c

Eric

 

[acf]

ACF, I would guess that the dealers, Jiffy etc will not do anywhere close to what we can done.

E

Its disappointing to hear that the dealer most likely wouldn't do a thorough job.

 

[e9999]

Its disappointing to hear that the dealer most likely wouldn't do a thorough job.

AC, you will find out very quickly if you hang around this forum that many here are knowledgeable and interested enough that they soon realize that the work done by most "general" dealers is either not satisfactory enough for us or so much more costly than you can DYI for, that is ends up being not an attractive option for most jobs. And then I think, most would agree that if you need a more complex job done (e.g. HG) you would be better off at a good "specialist" shop.
Horror stories abound here, but, of course, the dealers are a palatable options for the other 99% of the population (who don't know any better or don't care or don't have the time or have too many $$).

JMHO of course

E

 

[SteveLCetc]

oh, and Steve and all, I ended up using only one Tee out of the Prestone kit, and the rad cap attachment and all didn't fit so you end up wasting 80% of the kit. You might want to just go buy the one Tee at Autozone or someplace like that. You'll save enough $$ for a or 2 or 3...
E

Water carries heat much better than antifreeze - much better than about anything else, for that matter. The problem is in lubricating the water pump etc. with straight water (besides, obviously, freezing). It doesn't freeze here in the desert southwest much in the summer. So, what I need is lubrication and as much cooling as I can get to ward off the potential for catastrophic overheating. So, I figure 75% water is a good mix for the summer.

 

[Photo_Cruiser]

I did the full flush, as per E9999, not quite as thorough....I did the heaters, then the rad and block in one swoop, as per the prestone method. Didn't have a PVC doohicky to hook into that large radiator tubing.

I teel ya what though, I'm at 60k, second owner. PO did all factory stuff, used the dealer for all his maint, which i have the records for. I bought it with Toy red in it, I use Toy red. This was the first fluish I've done and when i drained the rad, the SLUDGE was in full effect! DAMN!

I could scoop a finger full of greenish brownish gritty crapola from the top of the rad...now after the flush, 3 cycles of filling with distilled....running it for 20 mins, heaters (both) full bore...then cooling and draining...all the visible sludge is gone....there is still some surface deposits...but no muck.

I imagine down in the rad is still pretty fouled up. I have never had any cooling issues in the 2 years I've had the rig. Am going on a ten day road trip later this week, and upon returning I'll address the Rad.

What Ya'll think, would you just have the rad rodded/cleaned or whatever it's called, Or just go straight to feeding C-Dans dogs, with a new Rad, which is what I'm thinking I'll do....am I correct in that the older rad is the onee to buy, as opposed to the current model?

Oh Yeah did the dang PHH at the same time, Followed Rick's directions, went very smooth, took an hour, and I can actually fit BOTH my hands up onto that thing.....making it pretty easy....

 

[Rookie2]

.... and I can actually fit BOTH my hands up onto that thing.....making it pretty easy....

How in the heck did you do that?? Double-jointed circus freak??


Rookie2

 

[Photo_Cruiser]

Not a circus freak, but my forearms a frickin bruised to all hell from shoving them in there

 

[e9999]

you could rent yourself out to people who need to have the PHH done...
E

 

[GXO]

Photo is a tiny little man.

 

[Photo_Cruiser]

5'7" 145LBS Coming at ya!!! Get me on my road bike though and at mile 70...I'll leave ya in the dust.....

Imagine all the cash I save on beer though.....cheap drunk here.....

And that's my son with a snake in the Avatar...I aint that tiny...sheesh...

Oh and my wife aint complainin'

 

[Rich]

...I figure 75% water is a good mix for the summer.

You really want to reconsider this. You have an aluminum head, aluminum radiator, and I presume aluminum heater cores. Water is very corrosive to both aluminum and iron. The coolant is providing the anticorrosion additives. With 75% water you may have an inadequate level of corrosion inhibitors. Aluminum components require a greater level of protection compared to brass and iron.

 

[cruiserdan]

Excelent point. If you have your heart set on a reduced concentration Cummins has/had some sort of stuff to run in engines that are used in tropical climates. It has the inhibitors and lubricants in it but no antifreeze goodies.

 

[RavenTai]

Excellent read on the diffrent coolants,

http://www.motor.com/MAGAZINE/Articles/082004_04.html