converter difference

[burger]

Other than the equalization factor is the converter sold by 4wheel auto different from the solar converters I see talked about. I ask this as I have one of the ones from 4wheel auto and I want to know if this will kill my batteries. All it is powering is a stereo. I know that i have wired it up properly.

 

[Stone]

No, it won't kill your batteries. The beauty of the Solar Converter aside from the equalization feature is that it is a very effecient system. Some step-down converters that are widely available produce a lot of heat...and it's often the heat that eventually causes them to fail.

I have modified my Solar Converter as of today to be able to switch back and forth from equalization to step-down conversion at the flip of a switch. Going to test it out for a while and see how happy the batteries stay. The idea behind the modification is to keep the batteries equalized if I'm using the vehicle every day, but if I leave it parked for a few days, I'll just flip it over to step-down conversion so that the Solar Converter doesn't draw down both batteries if there is a slight imbalance between the two. Hoping to avoid a dead Cruiser.

I don't recommend this modification if you're not too comfortable with the way 24v systems and Solar Converters work. Cheers.

 

[burger]

Thanks stone thanks for the info. I did not think that the converter I had would kill the batteries but just wanted to make sure.

 

[Greg_B]

Speaking from an entirely biased point of view, the converter may draw down your batteries if it is not efficient/something wrong with it. I had a brand new 10amp IPC once that was powering my stereo. Nothing else hooked up to it. After a few days I would have dead batteries. Took it out and put in a used 20 amp IPC I had laying around and all was okay.

As Stone says, some converters are not very efficient at all, producing a lot of heat and an unclean source of 12V power. Solar Converters is 96% effiecent, which to me speaks to the quality of the build. Simply hook it up in convert mode if your use will be under 20amps.

There is some good information and ideas here: http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/batequal.txt

Stones idea looks great, and if all works out will be adopted into my truck after his trial phase is complete.

gb

 

[Stone]

I also did an inadvertent "torture test" of my Solar Converter while I was incorporating my modifications to it. I had the cover off, and my Solar Converter was still secured by zip ties to the custom steel plate the I use to mount it. I had already mounted the relays and the switch, and was almost done soldering and heat shrinking my connections. The bloody shop cat would not leave me alone and kept on hopping up on the table and rubbing on all my equipment and Converter. Well, in the process of trying to hurry up before the cat needed more affection, I dropped the whole works onto the concrete floor! In fact, I dropped it hard enough to break one of the zip ties and the cheapo toggle switch! Good news is that after a few expletives and making my final connections, the Solar Converter still works!

I don't recommend this test at home, as it will probably void your warranty.

 

[Stickboy]

Hey Stone,
how about a small schematic of your eq/step down wiring you just did. I'm interested in that. It's interesting to note that I have a constant .3 to .2 a movement through my ammeter hooked up through a shunt off the neg battery terminal. I think this movement is the current flow balancing the batteries. I've been working on getting the voltages to match by tweaking the pot in the converter. I'm generally seeing about a .3 - .5v difference between the batteries and they are a brand new and matching set. I think taking the converter out of eq mode would keep the potential drain down even though I have never had any problems so far.....

-mike

 

[Stone]

Hi Mike:

This is what I have come up with. I use two 12v relays for the operation...the load sides are good to 40A, so I figure it will easily take the 20A maximum output of the Solar Converter. The way I have it diagramed means that when it is in convert mode, there is no 12v draw at all from the low-side battery (+) terminal...that's why the relays coil positive leads are hooked up with the Solar Converter 12v output lead (white).

I think the diagram is self-explanatory...basically the first relay switches the 12v output of the Solar converter between the low-side battery (+) pole on load balance mode, and to the 12v fuse box inside the cab in convert mode. The second relay provides a NC connection to the low-side battery (+) pole to the 12v fuse box inside the cab in load balance mode, and breaks that connection when in convert mode (the Solar Converter then supplies the 12v fusebox with 12v from the first relay in convert mode).

Like I said, I'm just trying this out for now...theoretically it should work, but I want to give it a week or two to see if there are any gremlins to work out before installing this to Greg's BJ74 and anyone else's.

Following are pics of the install in my BJ74 engine compartment...the relays are secured to a custom steel plate that also hold my Solar Converter. The switch is incorporated into the NEMA enclosure of the Solar Converter making sure that none of the wires that I added touches any parts inside that might get warm. Holes drilled to the enclosure for the toggle switch and wiring are sealed with urethane sealant...wiring hole incorporated a rubber grommet.

 

[Stone]

Little bit of an update on how the selector circuit works for the Solar Converter for those who are interested. I've had it strictly switched to convert mode for a few days now. My main concern was how the two relays are going to hold up under constant duty. They did get a touch warm, although they never got hot, and the harness and all the wires stayed cool. This led me to believe that the coils inside were heating up a little with the constant current, and I emailed Hella asking them about the durability of their relays under such conditions and if there was a better model that I should be considering for my application. I haven't heard back from them yet. Their catalogue doesn't really deal too much with constant duty tests, but focuses mainly on vibration and cycles.

The battery voltages stayed in their expected ranges throughout the test. On the first and second days, the high side battery showed a reading of 12.67V and the low side battery showed a reading of 12.57V. Today, the high side battery has gone up to 12.76V, but the low side battery has stayed relatively the same at 12.48V...making the imbalance between the two at 0.28V under constant convert mode for three days. I put the system back on load balance mode and the low side battery reading immediately went up to 12.57V and the high side battery reading went down to 12.63V...indicating to me that the Solar Converter is doing its job.

I spoke with Greg B. about the voltages just to make sure that they are within expectations of a healthy system, and he assures me that these readings are good. Apparently, there is always a little bit of imbalance in a stock 24v system (2-12V batteries in series), and it is common practice for owners of 24v Cruisers to flip their batteries at oil change intervals to try and minimize that imbalance affect on their batteries (kind of like rotating tires). Cheers.

 

[Stone]

Little bit of an update for Mike and others who might be interested in the relay circuit for switching the Solar Converter back and forth from load balance to convert. The circuit works well. The best thing about the system is the convenience of not having to switch wires to achieve the desired effect. Also, the switch between the two modes is pretty much instantaneous, and current is not interupted to the 12v fusebox preventing radio memory loss, etc.

I am however taking the system out of my vehicle, not because I don't like it, but because I am going to be running a larger stereo system than I currently have. An Alpine 5 channel amp is going in this weekend along with a 10" Phoenix Gold sub. I really miss being able to hear and feel the low end bass, and it's been years since I've had a sub in a vehicle.

I'm going to be leaving my system 99% in Load Balance mode since it is my daily driver, and to be able to handle the occassional large load when the sub kicks in. I will make some sort of provision in the wiring so that I can use quick connects to switch the system from load balance to convert...but this will definitely interupt power to the fuse box and cause memory loss for the radio. This will only need to happen on the very rare occassion that I have to leave my truck a number of days and need the car alarm on and not having the load balancer drain both batteries down.

A recommendation on the relays if you decide to use the same circuit: use Hella's weatherproof 12v relay for under the hood installations. The part number is #87411 for the relay, and #87173 for the weatherproof relay base with 12" leads. Hella never did get back to me about my question for the suitability of their relays for constant duty...but I imagine that they will probably hold up well.

Thanks.

 

[Greg_B]

I will make some sort of provision in the wiring so that I can use quick connects to switch the system from load balance to convert...but this will definitely interupt power to the fuse box and cause memory loss for the radio. Thanks.

Stone, why not run the 12V converted line straight from the Solar Converter to the fuse block. Then splice in a short lead to the positive pole of the lowside battery off the white wire as it runs by. Use some insulated spade connectors. Leave it hooked up for load balance. When you park the vehicle and want it in convert mode, disconnect the spade connectors and there will be no power interuption.

gb

 

[Stone]

Stone, why not run the 12V converted line straight from the Solar Converter to the fuse block. Then splice in a short lead to the positive pole of the lowside battery off the white wire as it runs by. Use some insulated spade connectors. Leave it hooked up for load balance. When you park the vehicle and want it in convert mode, disconnect the spade connectors and there will be no power interuption.

gb

That's a good suggestion, Greg. I'm thinking of running some 10 gauge wire to handle the higher amps. I might be at the shop today tinkering before the Club dinner tonight.

 

[zander]

As I am getting an HJ60 next week (my first 24v cruiser) and am interested in putting in a new radio I have been reading all these 12/24 posts with a lot of interest (thanks to all of you especially Greg and Stone who have done great work posting ideas and results).

I am building up this HJ as an expedition vehicle to go from Baja to Alaska on veggie oil and would like the electrical system to be as simple and bulletproof as possible. From what I have read the best thing to do in this case is to set up the SolarConverter in 24-12 convert mode and run that to a fuse gang box for all things 12v.

In this set up does the solar converter still draw power when the cruiser is off?

Should I worry about balancing the two Optima's every once in a while?

Has anyone tried a third battery set up where the solar converter charges a deep cycle battery for all the 12v stuff?

thanks in advance for your advice...

 

[dieseldog]

Stone, I have got some questions for you and my two 24volt cruisers. I'll be pm'ing you.

 

[Stone]

Zander: So far I have been running my Solar Converter with a HD battery switch to enable me to switch back and forth from Load Balance to Step-down Convert. The reason why I want to do this is because I have a lot more than 20A (occassionally) demand from my 12v accessories. I have a CD Player and an Alpine 5-channel amplifier that is driving 4 speakers and a 10" sub. When the bass kicks in full volume, I imagine I am drawing closer to 35A from my low side battery.

But if I ever need to leave my vehicle for a few days, I would put it into strict convert mode in order to be able to run the alarm system while my vehicle sits without draining down both batteries. So far, the system that I've been running is working great with no noticable drain on the low side battery even with my music blasting driving every day in town. There is no power interuption to the 12v fusebox when I switch back and forth in modes, and the memory on the radio is not erased. Heck, even with the alarm on, there is not enough current deflection to trigger the alarm.

Perhaps I should add something here...
If you are considering putting the Solar Converter in Load Balance mode, it is imperative that you start out with two new fresh batteries. If there is even a little bit of difference between the two batteries, the Solar Converter will constantly try to balance the two by shunting current to the weaker one and if you leave your vehicle for any length of time you will find both batteries eventually drawn down and you won't be able to start your truck. Cold weather will aggravate this.

Use good quality wire of the proper gauge that will handle the current when making your connections for the Solar Converter or the 12v fusebox.

If you are interested in my setup in more detail, just email me, Zander. Cheers.

Dieseldog: You can PM or email me any questions...be glad to help you out the best I can. ashuang@telus.net

 

[expat]

So if you were starting from new...

OK, so if you were starting from new, which battery (yellow or red top) combination and converter would you use? Marko from Outback has graciously offered me options.

Mike Pedersen
'77 FJ40
''88 HJ61 (sometime soon)

 

[Greg_B]

I am building up this HJ as an expedition vehicle to go from Baja to Alaska on veggie oil and would like the electrical system to be as simple and bulletproof as possible. From what I have read the best thing to do in this case is to set up the SolarConverter in 24-12 convert mode and run that to a fuse gang box for all things 12v.

In this set up does the solar converter still draw power when the cruiser is off?

Should I worry about balancing the two Optima's every once in a while?

Has anyone tried a third battery set up where the solar converter charges a deep cycle battery for all the 12v stuff?

thanks in advance for your advice...

Hi Zander...good questions.

Best for expedition would be an isolated deep cycle that is total independent of your starting system, and charged from a converter...or if you have room a 12V alt.

Next best would be Stones hook-up, where you control by means of the HD marine selector switch.

The manufacturer says if it is not processing power there is no loss except for the 17 ma (.017 A) drawn by the unit from the 24 V side (load balance mode and assuming perfectly matched batteries---I think that is a dream). I would say no loss if hooked in 24V to 12V and no appliances on. Not being a techy I don't know if there would be some loss from the electronics inside when no power is being drawn off the 12V lead. I will ask and let you know their answer.

If you want true redundancy another method to consider is using one converter to look after the deep cycle battery, and another to hooked up Stones way. Run the two LED's into the cab, leave it on load balance most of the time, however in cold weather, or when leaving the truck stationary for long periods turn off the load balance mode.

hth's

gb

 

[Deny]

Hey greg,
I have done this. I have a converter powering a 12 deep cycle in my cab that I run my stereo, 12v lights, cigerette lighter, inverter (borrowed my brothers till I buy one), and my cb. I have a switch on the dash for both 24 to inverter and inverter to batt. I can run my stereo and 2 12v tractor lights for 6hours strait before the battery dies. and I can start it up no problem because it is isolated. It has worked great for 2 or 3 years(can't remember when I did it) except for the time I drove throught the river and blew up my cd stacker and both fuses surrounding the converter(amazingly the converter did not blow up!)
cheers,
Deny

 

[zander]

Thanks for the info guys, I would like to hear what you find out about the draw Greg.

So with the 3rd 12v battery set up I assume you ground to the vehicle as well? Or are you running an isolated ground?

Are the switches you talk about to isolate the 3rd battery so the converter doesnt keep charging the third batt and deplete your two starting batts? If so why do you have oneon either side of the converter?

 

[Deny]

I pretty much installed all this stuff temporary(most stuff on my truck is) so it is a bit mickey mouse. I have a wooden box holding my batt, converter, fuse box and neg power bar under my rear jump seat. I then run both a 12v ground and a 12+ to all my accessories. Yes the switches are to stop the converter from taking juice from my main 24 batts. And the reason I put the extra switch in is becuase I don't have a clue how those converters magically turn 24 into 12, and whether they work backwards, so I didn't want to take the risk of draining the 12. I might be well out to lunch on all this stuff, all I can say is that it has worked for me for quite a while, but I still swap (try to remember) my front batteries every year to keep them charged even, and have had no problems yet, knock, knock (thats me knocking on wood).
Cheers,
Deny

 

[Stone]

Hey guys:

Basically you can think of your Solar Converter as a 20A alternator if you hook it up to charge a separate 12V third battery. The way you hook up the Solar Converter in this case would be in the strict step-down conversion mode. Basically, the Solar Converter simply takes the voltage it sees on the red 24V lead and cuts it in half, sending half the voltage to the white 12V lead.

As with any other setup, you still have to be mindful of how much amperage you are drawing with your accessories. In a 12v car/truck, you wouldn't try to put a constant drain on the batteries that exceeds the output of your alternator. Same with the "isolated" third battery. It's okay to occasionally draw more than 20A from the system, as the battery will handle the extra drain (acting like a reservoir), but if you try and constantly drain more than 20A, then eventually the battery will be drawn down.

In the third battery setup, I would try and find a charge regulator of some sort that would automatically stop the current from the Solar Converter from charging your battery once it gets to a certain voltage. Also, a HD battery master ON/OFF switch inline to that charge regulator in order to completely disconnect the Solar COnverter from the third battery if you need to leave your vehicle sitting for a number of days. This would prevent over-charging the third battery.

Actually, the way I have my system setup, provides me these benefits without having to have the third battery taking up room somewhere. Like I have said, I do draw more than 20A when I have my stereo on, because of the amplifier. If space is a premium, and you don't like running large heavy gauge wires if you don't have to, then I would go with new batteries and a mode switch like I have done. It's very simple to do.

Deny...I was wondering why you don't just change out the bulbs of your auxilliary lights to make them 24V? This would save some current draw from your 12V system? You can relay the lights so that they only work when you have the key to Accessories...and avoid forgetting about them when you leave your truck.

Cheers,
Stone