Component Speakers in Rear Doors?

[suprarx7nut]

You must have the small mid just between the door lock and larger mid in the front doors.

I wish I had that option, the tweeter and 6 ½ inch mid are so far apart I imagine it will be harder to tune than a 3-way. On the other hand, I would have tried to fit a Dynaudio e430 in there or gone with AudioFrog GB 10/25/60 series and blown my budget even more than I already have.

I had similar issues with my BMW's and had to use the OEM head units and add extra equipment, depending on the DSP I used and the iDrive version I had in the car.

Yeah, exactly. 3 ways come OEM in the Mark Levinson LX system (at least for my 06, but I assume that's similar for other LX 100s). I think a big part of what I love from the Morel Virtus set in my 99 is that the tweeters go real low. 2200 Hz if I recall. Supposedly that yields a much more natural sounding mid-high range. I think having a 3 way setup takes that to the next level where you have the mid and highs very well covered by speakers playing near their optimum frequency. I'm excited to start playing around.

Another quip I didn't realize until I started tweaking my 99's system: The distance from ear to speaker is vastly different from tweeter to door woofer. If I recall correctly the drivers door was as far or further than the rear passenger speaker. For time alignment, that means unless you have a DSP running active, you will have some significant misalignment on the driver's channel when it comes to tweeter and woofer timing. That alone has made me a big proponent of running an active DSP for in-car audio. You just can't tune time alignment on OEM-location components without it.

 

[Pucker5]

Are you using the OEM head unit and amplifier or are you replacing them with aftermarket?

My upgrade is being installed this week and since I am replacing the factory Head Unit, amplifier and speakers, and don’t have NAV or any steering wheel controls, it is strait forward.

I am running a two-way active front, probably no rears or I will tune them as fill. I decided on a JL Audio VX series amp with built in DSP control for the 5 amplifier channels plus two RCA line out channels with DSP control if you need to add an additional amp, which I do because the mids I choose are power hungry and I am bridging the first four channels to make it a 3 channel amp and adding a second four channel amp that I will bridge to run the tweeters or use 2 channels for the tweeters and two for rear fill.

I am using a JL Audio VX1000/5i series amplifier with built in DSP. I considered a Helix V Eight DSP MKII or a Helix P Six DSP MK2 and for a number of reasons would have preferred a Helix but you can’t bridge channels on the Helix. I hope to stack the two amps and still make them fit under the passenger seat. JL Audio has a number of versions and they were on sale through the end of February.

For still capable but less expensive standalone DSP options the MiniDSP is well regarded. Dayton Audio DSP-408 is another “budget” option.

dayton doesn’t have de-equalization neither does the helix. The hertz does have de-eq and doesn’t have limits on bridging. Clean complete Signal is king, not worth getting a dsp otherwise just to control an inferior signal which is all the Dayton will do on a factory hu. That audio control dsp/amp has signal summing but not dequalization so same thing and it’s 1100. That jl amp/dsp is overpriced power and a fix/twk built into one package. When you install you’re still going to have to connect the same components.

If you want small amps Get a Pioneer gmd9705 five channel run the front two channels to your tweeters, midrange on the middle two and the sub on the fifth channel. Then do a gmd 8704 bridged on the midbass. You’re going to need that much juice per midbass driver to get distinctive midbass output anyways. You’re at $350 max In small amps that put out over rated rms power. Your at $750 with that dsp. Money left in your pocket compared to that $1200 5 channel

 

[West Hill]

dayton doesn’t have de-equalization neither does the helix. The hertz does have de-eq and doesn’t have limits on bridging. Clean complete Signal is king, not worth getting a dsp otherwise just to control an inferior signal which is all the Dayton will do on a factory hu. That audio control dsp/amp has signal summing but not dequalization so same thing and it’s 1100. That jl amp/dsp is overpriced power and a fix/twk built into one package. When you install you’re still going to have to connect the same components.

If you want small amps Get a Pioneer gmd9705 five channel run the front two channels to your tweeters, midrange on the middle two and the sub on the fifth channel. Then do a gmd 8704 bridged on the midbass. You’re going to need that much juice per midbass driver to get distinctive midbass output anyways. You’re at $350 max In small amps that put out over rated rms power. Your at $750 with that dsp. Money left in your pocket compared to that $1200 5 channel

I haven’t looked in to Hertz but I know their speakers are very highly regarded. They are not the most popular DSP choice on car audio forums; aren’t they the same as a Bit Ten? Helix seems the most popular by a wide margin and JL Audio is also well regarded. I’m sure they have their niche and I don’t have personal experience, just opinions that are worth what I paid for them.

I haven’t needed to worry about factory EQ in my LC but it seems you would need still need a FiX type integration device with a VXi series unless an optical connection is available. The VXi isn’t identical to the TwK. The VXi is new technology with additional capabilities. I don’t know if there is a comparison chart but off the top of my head some differences.

Ease of install, All pass filters, Shelf filters, 24/192 (VXi) vs 24/96 (TwK), 2 RCA preamp outputs with full DSP, Mac and windows PC support for TuN, tablet and smartphone via Bluetooth. (Surprising lack of detail on JL’s website}.

Thanks for trying to save me money but I am satisfied with my decision. What you are familiar with tuning, getting serviced, 3 year warrantees plus an additional year since I use AmEx are all of added value to me.

I don’t use Dayton or MiniDSP, never considered them myself but they seem to come up a lot as a budget DSP offerings.

A number of cars have various versions of MOST and my X6 has MOST 25. Helix makes the SDMI25 to integrate and connect the BMW MOST system to the Helix DSP. The new ACO platform DSP’s are considered by many to be one of if not the best DSP’s. mObridge is a competing option to the SDMI25 and the high end mObridge units add their own integrated DSP.

The new Helix Ultra DSP and other ACO platform models supports RealCenter to name one of the enhancements. Not applicable to our Land Cruisers but for cars with a center channel, it allows a 2-seat tune where the sound stage sounds equally as good in either the driver or passenger seat.

In the spirit of this thread that I apologize for helping get off track, both the Helix and JL Audio DSP’s offer very strong rear fill algorithms as well.

The new Helix DSP’s and Amp/DSP’s also support High Level Speaker inputs but since I didn’t need them, I haven’t checked if they would connect to the OEM head unit without additional equipment or not. I didn’t use them with my X6 because I wanted to keep full, seamless iDrive integration.

 

[Pucker5]

I haven’t looked in to Hertz but I know their speakers are very highly regarded. They are not the most popular DSP choice on car audio forums; aren’t they the same as a Bit Ten? Helix seems the most popular by a wide margin and JL Audio is also well regarded. I’m sure they have their niche and I don’t have personal experience, just opinions that are worth what I paid for them.

I haven’t needed to worry about factory EQ in my LC but it seems you would need still need a FiX type integration device with a VXi series unless an optical connection is available. The VXi isn’t identical to the TwK. The VXi is new technology with additional capabilities. I don’t know if there is a comparison chart but off the top of my head some differences.

Ease of install, All pass filters, Shelf filters, 24/192 (VXi) vs 24/96 (TwK), 2 RCA preamp outputs with full DSP, Mac and windows PC support for TuN, tablet and smartphone via Bluetooth. (Surprising lack of detail on JL’s website}.

Thanks for trying to save me money but I am satisfied with my decision. What you are familiar with tuning, getting serviced, 3 year warrantees plus an additional year since I use AmEx are all of added value to me.

I don’t use Dayton or MiniDSP, never considered them myself but they seem to come up a lot as a budget DSP offerings.

A number of cars have various versions of MOST and my X6 has MOST 25. Helix makes the SDMI25 to integrate and connect the BMW MOST system to the Helix DSP. The new ACO platform DSP’s are considered by many to be one of if not the best DSP’s. mObridge is a competing option to the SDMI25 and the high end mObridge units add their own integrated DSP.

The new Helix Ultra DSP and other ACO platform models supports RealCenter to name one of the enhancements. Not applicable to our Land Cruisers but for cars with a center channel, it allows a 2-seat tune where the sound stage sounds equally as good in either the driver or passenger seat.

In the spirit of this thread that I apologize for helping get off track, both the Helix and JL Audio DSP’s offer very strong rear fill algorithms as well.

The new Helix DSP’s and Amp/DSP’s also support High Level Speaker inputs but since I didn’t need them, I haven’t checked if they would connect to the OEM head unit without additional equipment or not. I didn’t use them with my X6 because I wanted to keep full, seamless iDrive integration.

Yeah i don’t doubt the Jl’s competency it’s just a $1200 5 channel amp in an $10k car which is a tough gulp for me to even think about. Suprarxnut7 wanted a relatively inexpensive dsp but the de-equalization factor (helix doesn’t do) comes at price and he needs 7 or 8 channels For his three way active and sub. Thus the hertz recommendation.

 

[West Hill]

Yeah i don’t doubt the Jl’s competency it’s just a $1200 5 channel amp in an $10k car which is a tough gulp for me to even think about. Suprarxnut7 wanted a relatively inexpensive dsp but the de-equalization factor (helix doesn’t do) comes at price and he needs 7 or 8 channels For his three way active and sub. Thus the hertz recommendation.

Helix has had Input EQ for years, also has Smart high level input ADEP.3, and the ACO platform models takes everything to a whole new level.

To keep at least a little on topic, one enhancement is, the VCP enables the implementation “Rear Attenuation”. With the help of a remote control, the volume of the virtual channels “Rear L Full” and “Rear R Full” can be controlled separately. So it is possible even without switching the sound setup, to adjust the volume of the rear speakers (or any other channel, which is routed through these channels).

The JL Audio VXi series can address input EQ as well but not at the same level as Helix.



I don't need to deal with it but would like to know how an OEM LC or LX head unit with NAV connects to an aftermarket DSP. Are there also systems that integrate additional car controls that I assume complicate things even more? Might only be an issue with more current Models and that is where a more sophisticated device may be required if you want your head unit to maintain the integration. Maybe it's even required for NAV?

 

[Pucker5]

Helix has had Input EQ for years, also has Smart high level input ADEP.3, and the ACO platform models takes everything to a whole new level.

To keep at least a little on topic, one enhancement is, the VCP enables the implementation “Rear Attenuation”. With the help of a remote control, the volume of the virtual channels “Rear L Full” and “Rear R Full” can be controlled separately. So it is possible even without switching the sound setup, to adjust the volume of the rear speakers (or any other channel, which is routed through these channels).

View attachment 2228852

Solid lesson on the way a dsp works. Thank you. No hate! But in car audio which is ideally a front driven stereo environment there’s no value in attenuating rear speakers or having rear speakers at all for that matter. It’s not the smartest way to do An attenuated output can also be done manually by adjusting gain on the amp channel driving those rear speakers (on factory hu without a dsp eq interface).

Also an helix mk2 is an $1k plus dsp. He’s be better off shelling out for that $1200 5 channel, but he still needs 7-8’channels.

I’ll leave it alone but The value (price, performance, capability) is with the hertz dsp and a separate amp (less power ceiling too)

 

[Manhattan]

Well... just picked up the 100. The improvement in the sound is exactly as the shop owner predicted and way better than I had expected.
The bass is much better - noticeably stronger and much tighter, cleaner. The sound is just not even in the same category as with the old stock speakers. It is just soooo much cleaner, clearer, crisper. I was blown away. I am LOVING this truck right now.

 

[West Hill]

Solid lesson on the way a dsp works. Thank you. No hate! But in car audio which is ideally a front driven stereo environment there’s no value in attenuating rear speakers or having rear speakers at all for that matter. It’s not the smartest way to do An attenuated output can also be done manually by adjusting gain on the amp channel driving those rear speakers (on factory hu without a dsp eq interface).

Also an helix mk2 is an $1k plus dsp. He’s be better off shelling out for that $1200 5 channel, but he still needs 7-8’channels.

I’ll leave it alone but The value (price, performance, capability) is with the hertz dsp and a separate amp (less power ceiling too)

I added the “Rear Attenuation” to attempt to stay on topic and it is not used as you assume, it enhances and simplifies gain, eq levels, rear fill and processing that was already available and I’ll leave it at that. I get the rear speaker debate but there are effective ways to do it and I have chosen to do it in one of my three cars while choosing not to in the other two.

If it was me, I would buy a used Helix long before a Hertz, either a P-six that has 6 channels of amplification or a stand-alone DSP Pro/MK2 at the same or lower price and with fart superior DSP capabilities. The great thing about this hobby is when new models come out, enthusiasts upgrade and sell their slightly used equipment that is in perfect condition.

I don’t have an issue with your preference and glad you would be happy with it.

 

[suprarx7nut]

Well... just picked up the 100. The improvement in the sound is exactly as the shop owner predicted and way better than I had expected.
The bass is much better - noticeably stronger and much tighter, cleaner. The sound is just not even in the same category as with the old stock speakers. It is just soooo much cleaner, clearer, crisper. I was blown away. I am LOVING this truck right now.

That's awesome! Congrats on the new sound! It's hard to explain the difference, but I think anytime you can say it feels like a whole new experience, you've done well. Now go find a good album and crank it!

 

[Manhattan]

@suprarx7nut that describes it! The change wasn't just better... it was different. Hard to describe, but yeah - sounds corny but from listening to experiencing. I swear I can hear the singers taking breathes.

But... the last conversation with the shop owner was "Man this is amazing. It's much better than I was expecting. So, tell me what's involved with bypassing the stock amp and adding that 6-channel amp... " I kinda get how this turns into a thing.

 

[lesgarten]

Are you using the OEM head unit and amplifier or are you replacing them with aftermarket?

My upgrade is being installed this week and since I am replacing the factory Head Unit, amplifier and speakers, and don’t have NAV or any steering wheel controls, it is strait forward.

I am running a two-way active front, probably no rears or I will tune them as fill. I decided on a JL Audio VX series amp with built in DSP control for the 5 amplifier channels plus two RCA line out channels with DSP control if you need to add an additional amp, which I do because the mids I choose are power hungry and I am bridging the first four channels to make it a 3 channel amp and adding a second four channel amp that I will bridge to run the tweeters or use 2 channels for the tweeters and two for rear fill.

I am using a JL Audio VX1000/5i series amplifier with built in DSP. I considered a Helix V Eight DSP MKII or a Helix P Six DSP MK2 and for a number of reasons would have preferred a Helix but you can’t bridge channels on the Helix. I hope to stack the two amps and still make them fit under the passenger seat. JL Audio has a number of versions and they were on sale through the end of February.

For still capable but less expensive standalone DSP options the MiniDSP is well regarded. Dayton Audio DSP-408 is another “budget” option.

JL Audio on sale! Sorry I missed that! How much was the VX1000/5i selling for?

How do you find out about sales?

 

[West Hill]

JL Audio on sale! Sorry I missed that! How much was the VX1000/5i selling for?

How do you find out about sales?

JLAudio.com lists sales for various products at different times. Dealers will honor them but be sure to ask. I was also able to negotiate a price better than the JL 10% sale discount.

 

[ramangain]

On the myriad of cars that I've done a complete aftermarket stereo, rear fills (usually a brand and series matching coax to front components) provide soundstage depth, not left/right spread. On my 01 LX with ML, I chose the Infinity Kappa 6.5" components and added the 2" bandpassed "midrange" and everything fit in the stock location with only minor mounting mods for the 2" in the driver door. Although the Kappas sound a bit "thin" out of the box, the Auto EQ and TA of my Pioneer headunit set the soundstage, mid-bass, and rear fill almost perfectly. The rest is a powered Infinity Basslink DC sub, 6.5" coax Infinity Kappa in the rear doors (adapter required), and and Infinity K4 amp. Plenty loud, clear, detailed, and tight bass. Highly recomnended!

 

[lesgarten]

I did this a few years ago. Pics on this thread : My new 98

I looked over that thread, very nice, gives me some ideas for sure. If depth were not an issue, do you think you could get 8" drivers in the front door? I haven't pulled my door panels and was wondering about the hole in the metal?

 

[Pucker5]

I looked over that thread, very nice, gives me some ideas for sure. If depth were not an issue, do you think you could get 8" drivers in the front door? I haven't pulled my door panels and was wondering about the hole in the metal?

Behind the speaker adapters the cavity hole is pretty large and I thought about an 8” when I put 6.5” aftermarket midbass drivers in that were nearly 6” magnet size. I think you’d have to find the right speaker and you may have to cut the opening a bit larger. A 7 and some change hole size would likely fit. The doors have a ton of depth but you would need to make a wood speaker ring at .5” or more so the 3” clearance would be fine. I would be worried about the 8” speaker sticking out over the edge at the bottom.

PWX 8" Midrange Speaker

store.crescendoaudio.com

 

[lesgarten]

Behind the speaker adapters the cavity hole is pretty large and I thought about an 8” when I put 6.5” aftermarket midbass drivers in that were nearly 6” magnet size. I think you’d have to find the right speaker and you may have to cut the opening a bit larger. A 7 and some change hole size would likely fit. The doors have a ton of depth but you would need to make a wood speaker ring at .5” or more so the 3” clearance would be fine. I would be worried about the 8” speaker sticking out over the edge at the bottom.

PWX 8" Midrange Speaker

store.crescendoaudio.com

Thanx! Thinking about this series of separates in the front with custom pods on the A pillar area for the mid and tweeter. Here's the 8" driver page.. Scroll down to documentation and look over the technical sheet for sizes. It is so shallow it's not funny. These speakers just don't have any rivals in my opinion. Looking at the 8" the 3.5" and the Tweeter

8WM - Focal