Can anyone on the forum 3D print (or cast) metal parts?? (1 Viewer)

[Kernal]

Starting this separate thread to get people thinking about it.

There is a current thread started by Bilt4Me, My Ignition Broke, which discusses this problem:

My Ignition Broke!

I went to restart my 96 Land Cruiser (1FZ-FE) and the switch turned on, but it wouldn't start. The key flopped all the way to the right , but wouldn't return and there was no "spring" back from the start position. I noticed that my radio had power, my ABS light was on (because it's always on)...

forum.ih8mud.com

Long story short: there's a cast metal part inside the barrel of the ignition bracket (80 series) that can fracture (?metal fatigue) without warning. When that happens the engine either won't start or stop by using the ignition key and to fix it you have to remove the ignition cylinder and replace the broken rod.

Problem is Toyota does not sell just the rod that fractures, you have to buy the entire "Bracket" which is the barrel thingy that holds both the steering wheel locking pawl, the ignition cylinder, and the rod.

As mentioned in that thread the same problem (fractured rod tip) occurs in the 100 series Land Cruisers but apparently that part is available separately and also Toyota beefed up the part since the original production. Unfortunately that rod is different that what the 80 series uses so it's not interchangeable.

So the question is; does anyone out there have the ability to reproduce the rod in question; either by 3D metal printing, or casting, or CNC machining from bar stock($$$), or???

Here's a photo showing a broken rod (tip) at the top and a good new rod below:

 

[PIP]

Ability, yes.

Aluminum 3d printing makes a pretty, but low quality part.

Machine from barstock. Looks like 3 ops on a mill from what I can see.

This is a $2000 part if you need one reverse engineered and 100% working like the factory piece.

On the other end of the spectrum, If 5000 people need them it's a $5 part.

 

[mudgudgeon]

This is a $2000 part if you need one reverse engineered

I can picture kernal now, sitting at a dimly lit work bench with a jewellers lupe and file, and a chunk of aluminium bar stock whittling one up muttering about the cost . . .

 

[PIP]

I can picture kernal now, sitting at a dimly lit work bench with a jewellers lupe and file, and a chunk of aluminium bar stock whittling one up muttering about the cost . . .

The reality is if 100 people wanted one the cost wouldn't be bad.

To reverse engineer, fixture, machine, etc you are looking at a couple days of shop time to make a first article.

 

[Kernal]

So would/could the part be 3D scanned and the data pumped into a CNC program?

The other end of the part is a bit more complicated with a slot and a spring loaded blade that engages the key cylinder (the blade however can be robbed from the old rod).

Photo to follow.


Interesting video showing a rocket nozzle being printed out of Titanium powder, FWIW.

 

[mudgudgeon]

So would/could the part be 3D scanned and the data pumped into a CNC program?

The other end of the part is a bit more complicated with a slot and a spring loaded blade that engages the key cylinder (the blade however can be robbed from the old rod).

Photo to follow.


Interesting video showing a rocket nozzle being printed out of Titanium powder, FWIW.

Maybe I was wrong about you muttering about the cost of your next stop was printing witth titanium powder

 

[mudgudgeon]

Interesting video showing a rocket nozzle being printed out of Titanium powder, FWIW.

Interesting video for sure

 

[The299]

Taking a mesh from a 3d scan directly into a CNC mill will not work.
Also many if not all 3d scanners have a minimum object size.
The parts seems to small for that, can you get me some measurements?

I just got my (first) 3d scanner and is has a minimum object size of 50x50x50mm

Drawing the part from scratch or using a scan will take some time as mentioned, but only needs to be done once

 

[PIP]

3D scanning has its place, but you don't need, and usually do not want 3D scanning for reverse engineering.

For reverse engineering you need the part and what it fits into. You first have too understand how it works, what all its features do.

For example, that part is die cast aluminum. One requirement for castings is that section thickness is uniform. This dictates the geometry castings can be made with.

When you "reverse engineer " it, part of that is fully understanding what features are necessary for the part to do its job and which features are there because of the process that made it. From experience you infer clearances, fits and tolerance for features.

To get the geometry from the part you use measuring hand tools and machines to quantify every feature. Radius gages to establish fillet sizes.

For most part shapes 3D scanning is not a great choice. For large organic shapes 3d scanning is great.

Once you have your geometry you create the part model. With the part model complete you design and model the workholding for the machining ops.

Next you generate your toolpaths, setup the machine(s) and cut a setup part for each op. This is the easiest/fastest way to dial in sizes on all the features for a small part from a low cost material.

 

[Malleus]

@Kernal: get to whittlin'

 

[Kernal]

Roger all above. While searching for videos on reproducing parts using 3D scanning/printing I came across that Titanium powder 3D printing video, just thought it was interesting what metal printing could do.

I'm not a materials engineer but FWIW the failure point of the rod is the tip, looks to be in the ballpark of maybe 10,000 cycles of the key (~300,000 miles for both Bilt4me and my 96 model) when that tip fractures. So whatever the rod is made from it would need a material that would be less prone to fracturing at the tip.

So is there anyone on the forum who can actually make this part or know someone (small CNC shop?) who can?

 

[PIP]

Roger all above. While searching for videos on reproducing parts using 3D scanning/printing I came across that Titanium powder 3D printing video, just thought it was interesting what metal printing could do.

I'm not a materials engineer but FWIW the failure point of the rod is the tip, looks to be in the ballpark of maybe 10,000 cycles of the key (~300,000 miles for both Bilt4me and my 96 model) when that tip fractures. So whatever the rod is made from it would need a material that would be less prone to fracturing at the tip.

So is there anyone on the forum who can actually make this part or know someone (small CNC shop?) who can?

How many do you want?

No matter how you slice it this is a couple day job involving knowledge and machines. If someone offers to make one for $100 or similar you may be skeptical.

If you really just need one, can it be fixed? Welding aluminum makes for a soft part that will be weaker than before in the heat affected zone. Something I'll do for parts like these is to mill away the broken part and machine a register with a keying feature (like a square or rectangular hole). The machine up a replacement part out of a harder material- A good replacement for aluminum is 303 stainless. Drill/tap a hole, drill/counterbore a hole through the new piece, attach with a small SHCS and loctite.

As a machinist, If you asked me to make one of these I would suggest fixing it.

If there were 100 more people clamoring to get these I'd make a bunch and put them for sale, but it doesn't appear that's the case.

 

[cahill]

How much would it cost to fix it as you describe?

 

[PIP]

How much would it cost to fix it as you describe?

I would need to look the part over carefully before determining a repair approach and time. If the repair could be done with an insert then I'd estimate around $250 time and materials. I don't estimate low, it could be less.

Question-

How different is the 100 series part from the 80 series part? If it's beefier can it be converted into the 80 series part with a little bit of machinework? An approach like that has the potential to be the easiest/lowest cost option.

 

[Kernal]

The 100 series part appears too much different than the 80 series part to make it work IMO.

I considered doing just what was described above, insert a steel tip in place of the broken tip, but then I don't have the skills/equipment to do that right and the estimated cost to fix the rod is currently more than the cost of a new bracket assembly.

There is a temporary work around for the short term to drive the vehicle if absolutely required but you have to pull the lower dash panel off, remove the ignition switch from the back of the bracket, then use a screwdriver to turn the ignition switch on and off. But then there's the steering wheel interlock and to defeat that you can reinstall the broken rod and cylinder then turn the key.

Warning: that hack is probably not safe so only attempt that at your own risk.

 

[SNLC]

Personally in my opinion, don’t waste time and money reproducing parts you can still get.

Once they are NLA, yes.

80-series LHD manual shifter consoles are NLA, we had one reproduced via 3d print. It was very expensive.

Cheers

 

[Kernal]

I bought a new upper bracket last year when I first read Bilt4Me's thread, My Ignition Broke.

Someone might ask "then why did you start this thread about making that rod---".

Short Answer: because I'm thinking ahead.

Long Answer: partly because the rod is not available separately and you have to buy the whole bracket. Also partly because Partsouq or Amayama has not had the bracket available at any time during the past year AFAIK. But mostly because I expect the bracket to go extinct at any moment. So either we all buy a new upper bracket (or three in my case) to sit on a shelf or we start working on getting a rod made up now. IMHO waiting until the upper bracket is NLA is too late, you can't start or drive the vehicle without that rod (at least not in stock/safe configuration).

If we can find someone who can make up a batch of the rods (or figure out a method to repair them) at the right price point we all will be ahead of the game down the road when we may need it. Buying extra spares of the complete bracket could get expensive for some people when all they may need is the rod inside the bracket.

FWIW

 

[PIP]

Do you want to take on the burden of making it happen or are you expecting a machine shop to take on the burden of figuring out and stocking a part that is currently readily available, just part of an assembly?

I'm all for being prepared, but if this does become NLA and there actually is a demand for it, it could be brought to market in a very short time.

 

[Kernal]

I'm sure the rod would never be a fast mover, likely a relatively small number of Mud Forum members would buy one as a spare; 50, 100?? Advantage would
be to have it available if/when it was needed when the bracket goes NLA. So it might end up being a vendor that caters to the MUD crowd that has that part made up?? (Wits End, @NLXTACY maybe).

If a replacement rod could be made cheaper than buying the whole bracket, that would be a plus. If it can't then no reason not to buy the complete bracket assembly, while it's still available.

Just tossing it out to the crowd, partly to let people know it can happen to them (broken rod) without any notice. I suspect it will happen to more and more 80 drivers as we put more miles (more turns of the ignition key) on our trucks. Also wanted to see if anyone on the Forum had the ability to make (or knew anyone who could make) something like that rod.

So if anyone can afford a new upper bracket, buy one now before it's NLA, or wait to see if someone will make up a copy someday and hope your's doesn't snap in the meantime.

It would be interesting to see how a Machinist might go about repairing
one of the broken rods as mentioned earlier in the thread.

 

[BarnFab]

That part as show in your other thread is not machinable and you would need to understand the tolerance of the features to know if you could modify it to make it viable.

Even in the 5 Axis with a 20 thou end mill its all gunna come down to tolerance of the features. For example where that red arrow is your corners will be radiused as you are coming in perpendicular due to the over hang. Judging by the surface finish I doubt it would matter but not knowing is what blows your cost out.

That said you would just draw it, don't waste your time with scanning and cleaning up a mesh that would be a PITA . Once drawn just 3D print one for test fit and then make then on the lathe or 5 axis ( or 4 ) in 2 ops, but as others have said I would quote it on a 2 Day job for the 1st one and then after that I would not expect them to be very expensive once Esprit has done its thing it wouldn't have that much run time.